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Jarriaga

DE's sustainable content problem shows up again (AKA: All Lich weapons farmed. Now what?)

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Well, I now have all 13 Lich weapons (Current active Lich has the final weapon).

This is after 18 Liches. Most of my Kuva weapons are Heat (Because I decided to only switch elements after getting the Ephemera for the current one) with low 25%-28% bonuses. Since I have no intention to chase after stats considering I already have set loadouts with specific synergies, all that is left for me is to farm the Ephemera.

Lich enemies offer nothing else beyond that if you have farmed what you wanted, so other than stronger weapon bonuses (Which are not guaranteed), they have little repeated acquisition value because there's no 3rd option with immediate application and value such as 10K Kuva when vanquishing a Lich if you don't want its weapon or to convert it.

This is something other people highlighted a month ago:

And more people have completed their farming as well:

I would continue farming more Lich enemies if I could get a guaranteed +1 upgrade at a minimum because even at just +1 I'd get a constant feeling of progression, but the number of RNG layers involved (Weapon and bonus) is not worth the effort once you get one of each.

While I do commend DE for making a reward system that offers higher replay value (DE's problem with "one and done" reward systems is something I've highlighted before), the implementation needs some polish or improvements because the replay value itself is not high enough.

How can they improve this so the system becomes more sustainable?

- Make weaker repeated weapons still give a +1 bonus.

- Add more options after beating your Lich such as 10K Kuva for example, but you can't convert or vanquish the Lich if you choose this reward.

That's just spitballing ideas.

Sadly, I don't think they will do any of that. Lich enemies will just continue to lose value and replay incentives until the next batch of Lich enemeies (Corpus/Infected) are released only for the cycle to repeat again. And no, this is not a problem with game time habits. It's a problem with the system having an RNG progression ceiling to begin with, which only leads to content drought complaints because the system is not designed to keep you occupied in a fair way that respects your time.

In the meanwhile, I'll just Forma all of them for the Mastery until Empyrean drops 1-2 weeks from now.

 

Edited by Jarriaga
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Did you got every elemental variant and top tier of each element?

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6 minutes ago, Uan91 said:

Did you got every elemental variant and top tier of each element?

Did you read the OP?

Most of them are Heat based with 25%-28% bonus heat because I decided not to switch elements until I got the corresponding Ephemera. That's in the opening sentence.

Edited by Jarriaga
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I'm not even motivated to bother. I got a kuva lich with 27% and whatever the arch gun is. That's my first one. Theres only 2 kuva weapons I really want (kohm and chakkur) and who knows how many hours its gonna take to get those two weapons alone, let alone a good %. 

I'm okay with grind. I'm okay with RNG but I'm not excited about the idea of investing DOZENS of hours into something and possibly getting nowhere.at least with rivens I can throw a dice a few times an hour and not every several hours. 

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4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

- Make weaker repeated weapons still give a +1 bonus.

Your idea kind of reminds me how Destiny 2 works with gear upgrades.

Not sure exactly the right parameters, but the just of it is that when you have a weapon with say score 800 ( which would be the % elemental in the case of warframe ), all subsequent drops are slightly higher. With kuva liches, this would mean that if you have a 30% roll, the next one would be like 31-35% and so forth.

The disadvantage is that, since there's no RNG, you can't get lucky with a 60% roll from the get go. On the other hand, of course, you never get a weapon worse than what you already have.

I do like that system, because you can "feel" the progression. You keep getting better and better stats. Ultimately, it may even take longer than what we currently have ( if we factor in all weapons vs. elementals ) but it is at least progression that you can more or less control and keep pushing without relying on RNG.

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4 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I'm okay with grind. I'm okay with RNG but I'm not excited about the idea of investing DOZENS of hours into something and possibly getting nowhere.at least with rivens I can throw a dice a few times an hour and not every several hours. 

That is my issue with the system as well: The time invesment vs. reward scale balance is way off.

If you could get a guaranteed improvement, not matter how small, it would feel a lot more fair.

Edited by Jarriaga
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2 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

Your idea kind of reminds me how Destiny 2 works with gear upgrades.

Not sure exactly the right parameters, but the just of it is that when you have a weapon with say score 800 ( which would be the % elemental in the case of warframe ), all subsequent drops are slightly higher. With kuva liches, this would mean that if you have a 30% roll, the next one would be like 31-35% and so forth.

The disadvantage is that, since there's no RNG, you can't get lucky with a 60% roll from the get go. On the other hand, of course, you never get a weapon worse than what you already have.

I do like that system, because you can "feel" the progression. You keep getting better and better stats. Ultimately, it may even take longer than what we currently have ( if we factor in all weapons vs. elementals ) but it is at least progression that you can more or less control and keep pushing without relying on RNG.

I'd be fine with that to be honest, although I'm certain that there would be people very angry about about not being able to get Bugs Bunny levels of luck and roll +60 on their first attempt.

I prefer direct measurable progression. It's why I love the Nightwave system so much.

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I dont see the problem.

You've done the very basic part of the system i.e getting the 13 weapons. That was not the only intent of the system. You decided you are done, but the system obviously has more to give, you just arent interested in it. Just because your interest stops there it doesnt mean the system doesnt have sustainability, since there are obviously several more things to get like damage types, min-maxed damage stats for whatever type someone needs, more ephameras etc.

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Yeah they need to work on making them more fun, a better sense of progression and giving them more rewards outside of weapons and ephemeras. The fact that you don't get Kuva from a rank 5 lich is just dumb. Just make it so we get the Kuva on a convert/kill, that way people can't exploit it.

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9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont see the problem.

You've done the very basic part of the system i.e getting the 13 weapons. That was not the only intent of the system. You decided you are done, but the system obviously has more to give, you just arent interested in it. Just because your interest stops there it doesnt mean the system doesnt have sustainability, since there are obviously several more things to get like damage types, min-maxed damage stats for whatever type someone needs, more ephameras etc.

I am interested in it. As I noted, I would continue farming them if I could get a guaranteed +1 on repeated weapons, or a high amount of Kuva just as an example. Heck, just +1 for all 13 weapons in a single element means 390 Lich enemies to get them to +55 with what I've had. I'd be fine with that if each killed Lich meant something. Currently, you have multiple layers of RNG involved (Weapon type and bonus damage percentage) on top of a 1-3 hour time gate per attempt depending on your luck with the Requiem mods. The time investment vs. reward scale is way off as for the system to feel like it respects your time and effort. More often than not it it will push you away and give you a "I'm glad I'm done with it" feeling.

Sure you can chase min-maxing with every weapon in every element. How much of that can you control? Only the element. So 1-3 hours just for an attempt at what can be a waste of time with a weaker weapon? If that feels sustainable and fair to you, then more power to you. It doesn't feel that way for me.

Edited by Jarriaga
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work on builing an army of them, try killing more male thralls too since male liches are bigger bros

 

theyll show up in our railjack crew, so might be nice to have an army of them

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Just now, Space0ddity said:

work on builing an army of them, try killing more male thralls too since male liches are bigger bros

 

theyll show up in our railjack crew, so might be nice to have an army of them

*Avengers endgame theme plays*

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I've yet to see an update divide the playerbase this hard as the Kuva Liches did. Some people who have finished up all the weapons are concerned about sustainable content, and some people who cannot bother or do not have the time for them are concerned about content no longer being fun. I get both aspects because I cannot see myself killing a single Lich after getting all the weapons, and at times the grind also pisses me off when I guess a Requiem mod wrong for the 6th or 7th time. The game definitely needs some long time goals that aren't just login rewards for 500 days, but I think this ain't it.

2 minutes ago, Space0ddity said:

work on builing an army of them, try killing more male thralls too since male liches are bigger bros

They cannot even kill a level 20 enemy so I do not see the point.

Edited by Wyrmius_Prime
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4 minutes ago, Space0ddity said:

work on builing an army of them, try killing more male thralls too since male liches are bigger bros

 

theyll show up in our railjack crew, so might be nice to have an army of them

That would depend on what having a Lich crew offers when compared to, say, a Hexis crew. And even then, I'd presume there would be a limited amount of crew seats available.

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4 minutes ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

I've yet to see an update divide the playerbase this hard as the Kuva Liches did. Some people who have finished up all the weapons are concerned about sustainable content, and some people who cannot bother or do not have the time for them are concerned about content no longer being fun. I get both aspects because I cannot see myself killing a single Lich after getting all the weapons, and at times the grind also pisses me off when I guess a Requiem mod wrong for the 6th or 7th time. The game definitely needs some long time goals that aren't just login rewards for 500 days, but I think this ain't it.

Indeed. And people just telling you to swallow multiple layers of RNG at once have no interest in discussing improvements to the system because they don't see a problem with multiple uncontrollable layers of RNG that don't respect your time, which further adds to the division.

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The only good one is the Chakkur the others are a waste of time and i don't understand why you can't cast a lich. 

Edited by bibmobello
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3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Indeed. And people just telling you to swallow multiple layers of RNG at once have no interest in discussing improvements to the system because they don't see a problem with multiple uncontrollable layers of RNG that don't respect your time, which further adds to the division.

People that tell you that are part of the overall problems with warframe as a game.

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I want the ephemeras from them, but I want to find them on my own instead of just buying them all. I had all 13 weapons by 25 liches or so with one ephemera (rad). Now I'm 72 liches without seeing another. Its not exactly fun content or challenging at this point. I don't look at their stats or even their name sometimes. Its just gonna be another 25% tonkor to add to the pile of 12 or so.

 

I'm stubborn but even I have a limit.

Edited by Masquerine
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13 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

i don't understand why you can't cast a lich. 

That would certainly speed things up.

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2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

1) Mastery.

2) In most other systems, I feel DE respect my time. Ergo, my expectation is for new systems to respect my time as well.

so you powered through it for mastery? sounds like you made this your reward, since you dont want the non sub-par elemental weapons or ephemeras.. if you are so selective in choosing what you consider a challenge, how do you expect DE to fit in your tastes? you are in 1% or less of total playerbase that did this FYI, so I think what you could do now is take a deep breath and wait for players who do not zero-out all new content as it arrives, so they can catch up. 

not going to comment on the expectation for a grind game to be time efficient.

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I agree. There just isn't enough incentive to keep doing it. 

Even if they smooth out the layers of RNG and give us a way to overcome bad rolls, the entire thing is just a convoluted slog for a slightly reskinned gun. Not a single step of the process is any fun.

It's like the entire concept of a personal nemesis got lost in the grind for a new toy. We don't even care about the lich, it's goofy name or it's skill set. It's all irrelevant. All that matters is the % beside the weapon bonus.

The actual nemesis part of the content is Non existent. Our true nemesis is RNG. I think I would care more about the lich if it wasn't a disposable vehicle for a randomly generated reward.

 

 

 

Edited by IIDMOII
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Maybe they should take the Riven system and apply it to the enemy's special units beyond the Lich system where it randomly gives them weird stats and powers and constantly refreshes every mission....just to mix things up consistently.

The weapons as rewards have always been an issue in them being lackluster or subject to nerfs and so forth. So any efforts spent on a weapon is reduced to a moot point of eventuality; just to gather dust due to being nerfed or replaced. So making them the reward is fast tracking this system to failure due to DE's need to nerf any meta that should arise that fuels said interest in farming said weapon or weapons.

For me the long term mods are the way to go for a player reward like Almagalmods (Having that extra speed attached to damage as been pretty great for my play style.) as an example that expands on my builds or anything that is beneficial for what players either want or really need. This is something we saw with the earlier special events that rewarded status mods. It's the only reward that can travel with us as every systems or weapon changes that has any time effort worth and is still sought after by players in the spectrum from starting to vet...

 

Edited by (PS4)FriendSharkey
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