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Jarriaga

DE's sustainable content problem shows up again (AKA: All Lich weapons farmed. Now what?)

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12 minutes ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

I disagree.

  • People are complaining about content droughts in a free game that has more content than paid titles.
  • People who have not completed the content in WF complain about content droughts when they just don't feel like doing what WF has to offer.  How many people who have completed all the lich weapon farming, even if NOT maxing stats, have also farmed all the new arcanes? The new Auras? The Ephemeras?

People whine because there isn't anything they want to do and call it a drought.  Whiners and crybabies will whine and cry - thats just what they do.

So you're OK with a 1-3 hour time wall between attempts for stockpiled double layer of RNG that gets progressively worse over time considering the odds? I have noted several times in this thread now that I'd be perfectly fine if killing a Lich would at least net you a guaranteed +1. That's not the case, so you can waste 1-3 hours of your time getting absolutely nothing in return.

More power to you if you feel that the time investment vs. reward scale is fair.

I don't.

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8 minutes ago, Morthal said:

Time is money.
F2P titles are never "free" and only a sucker would believe this. 

"People whine because there isn't anything they want to do and call it a drought.  Whiners and crybabies will whine and cry - thats just what they do."

People like you, in this forum and in the game are the only one's complaining and whining. You add literally no improvements to the game, no incentive for DE to get better, instead you'd rather cry about others who DO want the game to improve. 
MY TIME is valuable and I choose to spend it in Warframe with friends and clanmates who all feel similarly about Update 26, not everyone agrees to the same extent but our opinions and feedback are far more valuable than you and all the other whiny babies who just shout "FREE GAME". 
 

Oh piss off. "People like you". You know nothing about me. I have posted hundreds of bug reports, suggestions etc.  And yet simply because I state the obvious: people are crying "content drought" when the reality is "There is a ton of content in Warframe, they just don't want to do it, they want to do something else"

As for F2P games not being Free - you can't count the time spent playing - if you do you have to add that to paid games as well.  And further more, the expression "Time is Money" is generally NOT applied to leisure activities unless specifically referring to being generally better off if ones time was spent working or doing something productive as opposed to said leisure activity.

 

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36 minutes ago, Morthal said:

Personally, I'm ignoring Lich 'content' without hopes that it will improve, just as DE ignores our feedback.

This, here, is my approach. The entire "lich" system was flawed from the very start. Even the most rudimentary playtesting would have gotten a response of "WTF is this?". A more in-depth playtesting would prompt a whole host of responses, but they'd all be more nuanced versions of the same. A complete playtesting of this system, from start to finish... can't actually be done because of the gargantuan wall of dice rolling which stands in the way of actual completion (which I define as getting one single 60% bonus for each weapon type).

If they throw blatantly untested garbage at me, I'm never touching it. My time has value. I'm not wasting it on something which was known from the very start to be defective but still chucked at us regardless.

First impressions count. Disproportionately so. If something is either unplayable (as in: you physically can't complete the mission, like sanctuary onslaught solo) or a steaming pile of crap (hema, "liches", melee), I will forever remember it as such. The best case scenario is that I completely forget about its existence (and thus it actively contributes to "content drought" by throwing development time away). The worst case is that I remember it, it sticks in my mind constantly and I start spewing boiling vitriol if I ever talk about this game.

The impression isn't instant, there's a little window after release where it's not set in stone and feedback can be incorporated or responded to. But that didn't happen here. DE ignored our feedback, I'm ignoring their "additions". Sounds fair.

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19 minutes ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

I disagree.

  • People are complaining about content droughts in a free game that has more content than paid titles.
  • People who have not completed the content in WF complain about content droughts when they just don't feel like doing what WF has to offer.  How many people who have completed all the lich weapon farming, even if NOT maxing stats, have also farmed all the new arcanes? The new Auras? The Ephemeras?

People whine because there isn't anything they want to do and call it a drought.  Whiners and crybabies will whine and cry - thats just what they do.

 

 

This is a very shallow argument and I don't think you are being fair in your assessment of people who criticize or offer suggestions to improve the game. Sure, some people want to have their cake and eat it too. Sure, there are probably people who don't want to actually play the game and just want stuff handed to them. But to say you can't complain about content if you haven't 100% completed the game is a silly statement. Furethermore, I don't use arcanes, I don't care about them, and I don't play Eidolons to collect them. You are suggesting that I'm not allowed to comment on gameplay mechanics that I've repeated dozens of times simply because I haven't bothered to farm for a max Arcane Agility? As much as you might want it to be, elitism isn't necessary to provide constructive criticism of the games mechanics. Having all arcanes at rank 3 doesn't earn you any more or less of a right to express your opinion.

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26 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

So you're OK with a 1-3 hour time wall between attempts for stockpiled double layer of RNG that gets progressively worse over time considering the odds? I have noted several times in this thread now that I'd be perfectly fine if killing a Lich would at least net you a guaranteed +1. That's not the case, so you can waste 1-3 hours of your time getting absolutely nothing in return.

More power to you if you feel that the time investment vs. reward scale is fair.

I don't.

No. I am not "ok" with it.  What I was addressing was the complaint of content drought.  Warframe does not have a content drought. It is a looter - shooter - collection game  - where one can collect frames, weapons, cosmetics, codex entries, arcanes, exodias, floofs, platinum, etc etc.

I am not arguing that 3 hours of grind for something you don't want - and furthermore KNOW you don't want before you can even get rid of it is good. I'm not arguing that RNG stacked on RNG is content. I feel quite strongly that it is not.  But its not a "content drought". If people want to make suggestions on how to improve the collection aspect of the lich related stuff I am all for it - because in its current form I think its trash.  

 

2 minutes ago, IntheCoconut said:

You are suggesting that I'm not allowed to comment on gameplay

 

I strongly support comments on game play - see my response to someone else above.  But don't call it what it isn't "a content drought" - which was the subject of the thread. That just encourages more rapid implementation of half baked garbage like this rather than well thought out and well implemented ideas.  Encourage them to fix whats already in the game - be it Lichs, Eidolons, etc. But one needs to remember that at its core what is warframe - its a Looter Shooter Farming game with a ton of stuff to loot and collect. And if one doesn't want to collect whats in the game - that doesn't mean there is a content drought, it simply means you don't want that loot.  On the other hand, if you DO want the loot, and hate the mechanics - ie one wants all the Kuva weapons and think that 1-3 hours of RNG over RNG over RNG is not fun - then make suggestion specifically on that game play loop.

ie:

  • We should have a way to see what a larvling will provide before finishing it so we can chose to ignore it if we definitely don't want it; or
  • If the lich is trash, we should be able to pay it off with resources to make it go away without the grind, or trade it immediately; or
  • The thralls should drop mods, not relics and get rid of that part of the farm; or
  • 70 thralls for hint three is ridiculous - it should be 30/30/30; or
  • we should be able to merge weapon stats of lower weapons to boost our existing ones so they have some benefit; or
  • the lichs AI is dumb as rocks and not engaging resulting in nothing more than 15 seconds of poke him, try a mod and either get your back broken or make a smidge of progress - they should be tankier, or smarter, or something; or
  • converted liches should have some use - ie when they spawn in battle they do more than just make a comment and leave  but maybe do some actual damage, or be callable like a specter, or use their abilities once in a while; 
  • etc etc etc

 

 

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13 liches down and I feel like I'm done. I'll try to buy the charged ephemera and that's it.

I don't want the archgun. I'm also missing Kohm, drakgoon and kraken but the chore of killing a lich just feels unbearable. Especially if you get very unlucky with the RNG(which is what happened in my last 4 or 5 liches which all took around 3+ hours each individually). 

Honestly speaking, I wouldn't want my "sustainable content" to be like Lich gameplay anyways, it is extremely frustrating and gets boring realy quick. I'll wait for them to tinker with it a little bit more in the next updates to give it another go. But as of now, yeah, I'm done.

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42 minutes ago, Morthal said:

Time is money.
F2P titles are never "free" and only a sucker would believe this. 

"People whine because there isn't anything they want to do and call it a drought.  Whiners and crybabies will whine and cry - thats just what they do."

People like you, in this forum and in the game are the only one's complaining and whining. You add literally no improvements to the game, no incentive for DE to get better, instead you'd rather cry about others who DO want the game to improve. 
MY TIME is valuable and I choose to spend it in Warframe with friends and clanmates who all feel similarly about Update 26, not everyone agrees to the same extent but our opinions and feedback are far more valuable than you and all the other whiny babies who just shout "FREE GAME". 
 

 

What he said.

Company men will say otherwise but content drought is real and WF isn't in a good place right now(It hasn't been through 2019).

 

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I'm on my 19th Lich and I'm still missing the Chakkur.  I'm not going past 20 if I don't get it, I'll just trade for or buy a lich who has it.

If DE wants to lower the grind for Requiem mods and give us some reason to continue farming dupes (and no, the current valance system doesn't cut it for me) then maybe I'll continue trying to improve the Kuva weapons I've got. Other than that, like DE, I'll just move on from the whole lich thing.

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57 minutes ago, (XB1)aMichealMeyers said:

Ooh, I got a 26% toxin Quartakk, and I'm looking for a fire one. Lich finally spawns with one, 25% fire. I can't even turn my toxin Quartakk into fire because the bonus is 1% lower. That sure pissed me off. I'd downgrade my Quartakk that 1% if I could turn it to fire. 

Hah nevermind. I just killed that Lich and was able to downgrade my weapon into the 25% fire bonus. Lost maybe, a single point of split base IPS damage. 

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Once again, a community answer to "sustainable/replayable" content is to somehow make it endlessly rewarding. You are never going to have a system that will offer endless power creep. You will never have a system that continually increases forever. Instead, the answer to sustainable/replayable content is to make something that is fun to play. If the gameplay itself is fun, then you'll want to go back and play it more times, and it'll require fewer rewards to keep you engaged with it. Endless rewards aren't enough to make content sustainable, because at some point, those rewards will be meaningless to you, and if they aren't, then even if you feel incentivized to keep engaging with that system to get the better rewards, it won't be fun but a chore. Sustainable content needs some rewards, but it needs fun gameplay more, and if the content itself isn't enjoyable, then rewards won't make it more enjoyable.

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3 hours ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

The problem with Warframe as a game is that players are in it for the rewards, bringing us that gem of a title, "DE's Sustainable Content Problem."

It's not a problem with DE.  It's not a problem necessarily of ANY developer.  If you're not logging in for the core game play (in this case, to shoot the Grineer on the way to getting the next kuva weapon,) then it's in DE's best interests to make getting better bonuses a PITA because obviously once you hit cap, you're still asking the same stupid question, "what is there to do now?" and supposedly highlighting the "sustainable content problem."  

That problem being that players tend to chew through content faster than developers can make it, and often treat the core game play as a nuisance of an obstacle towards some reward.  Once they get the rewards, they ironically aren't interested in the core game play, which the reward is meant for.

There is literally no fixing this problem if people aren't going to even try and find their own fun.  It's a player psychology issue, not a developer content one.

Blaming players for playing the game is not a valid excuse from the developers, I'm sorry I just disagree. Where am I gonna find fun killing the flydolon again when I already got wisp parts?

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4 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Lich enemies will just continue to lose value and replay incentives until the next batch of Lich enemeies (Corpus/Infected) are released only for the cycle to repeat again.

They never had any value in the first place. I still have to kill my 8th lich after all these days. It's sitting at Europa and I have stopped doing any nodes at Europa. And there is a big majority of people like me, who wouldn't even bother to farm all weapons, let alone all ephemeras. Not my cup of tea, it seems.

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3 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

I will reply to you what I replied to him:

I am interested in it. As I noted, I would continue farming them if I could get a guaranteed +1 on repeated weapons, or a high amount of Kuva just as an example. Heck, just +1 for all 13 weapons in a single element means 390 Lich enemies to get them to +55 with what I've had. I'd be fine with that if each killed Lich meant something. Currently, you have multiple layers of RNG involved (Weapon type and bonus damage percentage) on top of a 1-3 hour time gate per attempt depending on your luck with the Requiem mods. The time investment vs. reward scale is way off as for the system to feel like it respects your time and effort. More often than not it it will push you away and give you a "I'm glad I'm done with it" feeling.

Sure you can chase min-maxing with every weapon in every element. How much of that can you control? Only the element. So 1-3 hours just for an attempt at what can be a waste of time with a weaker weapon? If that feels sustainable and fair to you, then more power to you. It doesn't feel that way for me.

The problem is, a guaranteed +1 wouldnt really solve anything. Not everyone is after the highest roll on a weapon, so it would screw over as many as it would benefit. If you look for a gun to give you a free heat source, you dont want it at 60%, you likely want it at 25% so it just procs enough and lets your corrosive shine as it should, just as if you want a weapon with viral, then you want that toxin or cold damage to be near bottom aswell for just enough procs to not intervene with other stats. The current system is balanced, because it serves both needs without getting in the way of the other.

They already screwed up the system due to complaints, like now forcing you to grind atleast one wrong weapon in between getting a chance for the one you actually want. Becuase someone thought it would be a good idea to not be able to get dupes on end. Casuals only caring for the mastery without really realizing what a mess they actually managed to get implemented through their complaints. I would not be happy with something that makes it even harder for actual min-maxing of a specific weapon/build, or something that completely removes min maxing due to ever increasing percentages.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Thats your personal view as well as op admitted that his personal opinion on hue system.  Not everyone likes to min max etc, so saying that makes no sense. Also from reading the replies other forums and other sources where fellow tenno express their opinions on the update many people feel similar. Down to a core loop you get the weapons and emphera and what else?

And that is it for the casuals. This system was designed for endgame, something for us to chase and possible be able to tailor for our specific need. The system should not be changed to cater to casuals so they can get their "but mah 60% duur!" fix. Leave it as is so people that actually care about the impact of the stats can decide which route to take, grind for that 25% or for the 60%. That is the whole idea, something specific for us to work for if we are the least interested in making something near perfect for our kit.

Why is it that whenever there is something new released intended as endgame, the casuals will cry after a day and then the S#&$ gets nerfed or gets bad mechanics slapped onto it. Lich trading, no back-to-back dupes and some other things are already bad enough as changes. And with the added Kuva you now have a bunch of whiny twats complaining whenever you dont parazon your Lich and just drive him off, cos apparently the kuva is more important than the owner of the lich thinking about efficiency.

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if you got all the game has to offer, then move on and play something else and come back when they release another piece of content that took them months to develop but you finish it in days.

then repeat the cycle.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

No. I am not "ok" with it.  What I was addressing was the complaint of content drought.  Warframe does not have a content drought. It is a looter - shooter - collection game  - where one can collect frames, weapons, cosmetics, codex entries, arcanes, exodias, floofs, platinum, etc etc.

I am not arguing that 3 hours of grind for something you don't want - and furthermore KNOW you don't want before you can even get rid of it is good. I'm not arguing that RNG stacked on RNG is content. I feel quite strongly that it is not.  But its not a "content drought". If people want to make suggestions on how to improve the collection aspect of the lich related stuff I am all for it - because in its current form I think its trash.  

 

 

I strongly support comments on game play - see my response to someone else above.  But don't call it what it isn't "a content drought" - which was the subject of the thread. That just encourages more rapid implementation of half baked garbage like this rather than well thought out and well implemented ideas.  Encourage them to fix whats already in the game - be it Lichs, Eidolons, etc. But one needs to remember that at its core what is warframe - its a Looter Shooter Farming game with a ton of stuff to loot and collect. And if one doesn't want to collect whats in the game - that doesn't mean there is a content drought, it simply means you don't want that loot.  On the other hand, if you DO want the loot, and hate the mechanics - ie one wants all the Kuva weapons and think that 1-3 hours of RNG over RNG over RNG is not fun - then make suggestion specifically on that game play loop.

ie:

  • We should have a way to see what a larvling will provide before finishing it so we can chose to ignore it if we definitely don't want it; or
  • If the lich is trash, we should be able to pay it off with resources to make it go away without the grind, or trade it immediately; or
  • The thralls should drop mods, not relics and get rid of that part of the farm; or
  • 70 thralls for hint three is ridiculous - it should be 30/30/30; or
  • we should be able to merge weapon stats of lower weapons to boost our existing ones so they have some benefit; or
  • the lichs AI is dumb as rocks and not engaging resulting in nothing more than 15 seconds of poke him, try a mod and either get your back broken or make a smidge of progress - they should be tankier, or smarter, or something; or
  • converted liches should have some use - ie when they spawn in battle they do more than just make a comment and leave  but maybe do some actual damage, or be callable like a specter, or use their abilities once in a while; 
  • etc etc etc

 

 

I'm sorry to phrase it this way but reading your response makes me wonder: did you even read anything being discussed in this thread? You came in here accusing everyone of being whiners and that our feedback has no merit and then you turn around and provide your own criticism? If you actually read anything discussed in this topic already, how is what you are proposing any different than what everyone, including the OP, has already been doing? Why is it that when we provide criticism and suggestions in this thread we are called "Whiners and crybabies" who "will whine and cry" but then when you provide the same structure of feedback it's not considered whining and crying? 

I would love to have you reply thoughtfully to some of the great suggestions and ideas already present in this discussion, and I look forward to hearing a more though-out response from you, preferably one that doesn't resort to name-calling and undermining everyone else.

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28 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The problem is, a guaranteed +1 wouldnt really solve anything. Not everyone is after the highest roll on a weapon, so it would screw over as many as it would benefit. If you look for a gun to give you a free heat source, you dont want it at 60%, you likely want it at 25% so it just procs enough and lets your corrosive shine as it should, just as if you want a weapon with viral, then you want that toxin or cold damage to be near bottom aswell for just enough procs to not intervene with other stats. The current system is balanced, because it serves both needs without getting in the way of the other.

They already screwed up the system due to complaints, like now forcing you to grind atleast one wrong weapon in between getting a chance for the one you actually want. Becuase someone thought it would be a good idea to not be able to get dupes on end. Casuals only caring for the mastery without really realizing what a mess they actually managed to get implemented through their complaints. I would not be happy with something that makes it even harder for actual min-maxing of a specific weapon/build, or something that completely removes min maxing due to ever increasing percentages.

That's a non-issue scenario. They can just make it so the drop chances for weaker or stronger weapons remain what they are, but if you get a weaker weapon, you can still use Valence Transfer to get +1.

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1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

That's a non-issue scenario. They can just make it so the drop chances for weaker or stronger weapons remain what they are, but if you get a weaker weapon, you can still use Valence Transfer to get +1.

Sure if they add an option that lets us get -1 aswell.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

No. I am not "ok" with it.  What I was addressing was the complaint of content drought.  Warframe does not have a content drought. It is a looter - shooter - collection game  - where one can collect frames, weapons, cosmetics, codex entries, arcanes, exodias, floofs, platinum, etc etc.

I am not arguing that 3 hours of grind for something you don't want - and furthermore KNOW you don't want before you can even get rid of it is good. I'm not arguing that RNG stacked on RNG is content. I feel quite strongly that it is not.  But its not a "content drought". If people want to make suggestions on how to improve the collection aspect of the lich related stuff I am all for it - because in its current form I think its trash. 

Fair enough. I now see where you're coming from.

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1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

Sure if they add an option that lets us get -1 aswell.

Why would that be necessary? You can trade for weaker weapons a lot easier than for stronger weapons.

Not everyone is min-maxing to the most optimal numbers.

Are you trolling? You are the only person I have seen here, on Reddit, on YouTube, on Discord, actually asking for a way to get weaker variants.

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40 minutes ago, TheGildedOni said:

Once again, a community answer to "sustainable/replayable" content is to somehow make it endlessly rewarding. You are never going to have a system that will offer endless power creep. You will never have a system that continually increases forever. Instead, the answer to sustainable/replayable content is to make something that is fun to play. If the gameplay itself is fun, then you'll want to go back and play it more times, and it'll require fewer rewards to keep you engaged with it. Endless rewards aren't enough to make content sustainable, because at some point, those rewards will be meaningless to you, and if they aren't, then even if you feel incentivized to keep engaging with that system to get the better rewards, it won't be fun but a chore. Sustainable content needs some rewards, but it needs fun gameplay more, and if the content itself isn't enjoyable, then rewards won't make it more enjoyable.

I have to agree but I know people are motivated by different things. I might be an outlier in that I wont farm for something, no matter how "good" the rewards is, if the gameplay required to get it isn't fun. Personally, I enjoy arbitrations and disruption but I honestly can't tell you if there is anything worthwhile in the reward table because that's secondary to my enjoyment. If I get some relics out of it, cool, but that's not why I'm playing those modes. On the other hand, I know a lot of people will chase rewards well after they are done enjoying the actual content. I'm sure there are lots of people who pay more attention to the reward tables and groan whenever they are forced to revisit content that they already completed. 

The problem that I am not equipped to solve is how do you create content loops that are fun and still fit with Warframe's style? And now we also start getting into subject parts of "what is fun" to each person on an individual level? See above where I said I like Arbies and Disruption, but another player might hate that experience from day one.

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There is no "now what". I'm sure theres a reason mr 27s dont continuously run Earth spy missions: you got what you needed and moved on in regards to both knowledge and loot.

1. It's no one's fault you rushed content.

2. Correct me if I'm wrong but this update was more filler to appease people while working on the major content and updates.

So how about you sit back and smoke a cigar and enjoy your new weapons.

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36 minutes ago, Toppien said:

if you got all the game has to offer, then move on and play something else and come back when they release another piece of content that took them months to develop but you finish it in days.

then repeat the cycle.

 

3 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

1. It's no one's fault you rushed content.

 

I'm sorry, but was I supposed to only fight one Lich per month and I missed that memo or what? Does a Lich every 2 to 3 days sound so extreme to you?

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3 minutes ago, IntheCoconut said:

I have to agree but I know people are motivated by different things. I might be an outlier in that I wont farm for something, no matter how "good" the rewards is, if the gameplay required to get it isn't fun. Personally, I enjoy arbitrations and disruption but I honestly can't tell you if there is anything worthwhile in the reward table because that's secondary to my enjoyment. If I get some relics out of it, cool, but that's not why I'm playing those modes. On the other hand, I know a lot of people will chase rewards well after they are done enjoying the actual content. I'm sure there are lots of people who pay more attention to the reward tables and groan whenever they are forced to revisit content that they already completed. 

The problem that I am not equipped to solve is how do you create content loops that are fun and still fit with Warframe's style? And now we also start getting into subject parts of "what is fun" to each person on an individual level? See above where I said I like Arbies and Disruption, but another player might hate that experience from day one.

I doubt those people are actually having fun, since everything for them is about collecting rewards. That's why, once they've collected something, they say "Now, what?" It's because they're here for the rewards, not for the gameplay.

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