Devstream: Empyrean, Feed Back. Are you Listening DE?

[Tyreaus]

What gets to me is how the Russian Roulette death surrounding the Lich system created such a gigantic community problem and, I believe, on a not too old devstream-of-sorts, they brought that up - and segued into how they would be keeping the relic and requiem system. As if the two were the same thing. Which they very much aren't.

I've designed a few minor applets. Not a game—nowhere near that. But when a part of any program creates that much user consternation, why on God's green Earth would you bring that problem up, just to say you're keeping some other thing? What about, I don't know...saying you're fixing the problem? Or maybe, at least, addressing that the problem is actually a problem? Or saying, directly, that the Russian Roulette death mechanic is here to stay? Freaking anything on the actual topic. As far as the snippets I've been able to watch on that have shown (I admit it's possible I missed something somewhere), they did none of that. Barring some other tweets or info I'm not currently privy to, it remains an open question what their thoughts are surrounding that entire mess, whether it will stay or go. And the community fuss surrounding it? #Shrug I guess.

And that doesn't even get into that part of the Lich system being literally backwards to what was advertised.

Personally, I'm OK with most of the Lich grind—I take it very easy and very piecemeal—so grinding with Empyrean isn't a gigantic issue to me. But when content gets delivered that's backwards to what's advertised and major issues aren't actually addressed, it's freakishly difficult to stay optimistic or even excited with new proposals. After all, we may get promised epic space battles—and get the exact opposite that, in its design, creates community vitriol, which is shuffled under the nearest rug. If it's happened once...

[Skaleek]

I think a lot of the issues stem from DE's belief that the community is only good at "recognizing the problems" and not "providing adequate solutions". This has been said before by both Steve and Scott on devstreams. They believe our solutions proposed are never the way to go. They make their own solutions, and to be honest, sometimes i think they are being stubborn and do not recognize good feedback when it hits them in the face.

I've produced a lot of feedback over the years and I am rarely heard unless I'm one of the 7 million people in a 30+ page thread screaming: "No your nerf to vacuum was not well received". I mean, obviously i am biased in saying that my feedback is "good feedback". Perhaps it isn't. I like to think that after playing the game as extensively as I have, i have some insight into the games underlying systems.

Also i really have to agree on the kuva lich system silence. I've never seen DE turtle this hard after an update that was so poorly recieved. It's been over a month and we've gotten a pittance of changes and comments about the state of the lich system.

The problem is, the longer they wait to tweak the system, they more they hurt players currently investing into it. Say they introduced the valence transfer = minimum 5% increase. Imagine all the players that grinded their asses off only to have DE say: "Okay now your grind is worth something". You are going to alienate players who invested time in the current system by disrespecting their time and effort.

The longer they don't take action, the deeper a hole they are digging.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Skaleek

[CuChulainnWD]

12 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

What gets to me is how the Russian Roulette death surrounding the Lich system created such a gigantic community problem and, I believe, on a not too old devstream-of-sorts, they brought that up - and segued into how they would be keeping the relic and requiem system. As if the two were the same thing. Which they very much aren't.

I've designed a few minor applets. Not a game—nowhere near that. But when a part of any program creates that much user consternation, why on God's green Earth would you bring that problem up, just to say you're keeping some other thing? What about, I don't know...saying you're fixing the problem? Or maybe, at least, addressing that the problem is actually a problem? Or saying, directly, that the Russian Roulette death mechanic is here to stay? Freaking anything on the actual topic. As far as the snippets I've been able to watch on that have shown (I admit it's possible I missed something somewhere), they did none of that. Barring some other tweets or info I'm not currently privy to, it remains an open question what their thoughts are surrounding that entire mess, whether it will stay or go. And the community fuss surrounding it? #Shrug I guess.

And that doesn't even get into that part of the Lich system being literally backwards to what was advertised.

Personally, I'm OK with most of the Lich grind—I take it very easy and very piecemeal—so grinding with Empyrean isn't a gigantic issue to me. But when content gets delivered that's backwards to what's advertised and major issues aren't actually addressed, it's freakishly difficult to stay optimistic or even excited with new proposals. After all, we may get promised epic space battles—and get the exact opposite that, in its design, creates community vitriol, which is shuffled under the nearest rug. If it's happened once...

Exactly, and you missed NOTHING from their replies as they only paid LIP SERVICE if it could be called that concerning the Old Blood. They addressed and redressed NOTHING of any feed back we provided them, about how the update could be improved. The Old Blood started off great, it got even better, then they about faced and headed in the exact opposite direction that could have made the Lich mechanic replayable enjoyable and systems complete. You are right, they did not keep their promises as to how the Lich system would work. Instead we get a slave trade to skip the grind.

[CuChulainnWD]

22 hours ago, Skaleek said:

I think a lot of the issues stem from DE's belief that the community is only good at "recognizing the problems" and not "providing adequate solutions". This has been said before by both Steve and Scott on devstreams. They believe our solutions proposed are never the way to go. They make their own solutions, and to be honest, sometimes i think they are being stubborn and do not recognize good feedback when it hits them in the face.

I've produced a lot of feedback over the years and I am rarely heard unless I'm one of the 7 million people in a 30+ page thread screaming: "No your nerf to vacuum was not well received".

That is because I think they are in an echo chamber. As literal and figurative as it is. It is a shame. They cry we want your feed back. We give them a metric ton of it, and much of what I have seen would be accepted by the majority of the community as being solid, well though out, replayable, enjoyable systems complete feed back and then nothing happens.

[Skaleek]

22 hours ago, CuChulainnWD said:

-snip-

Yes and No. I think they are listening. I think they are just not responding. DE has adopted the "wait and see" approach. It almost feels like they think we are crying babies that will cry ourselves to sleep and stop complaining.

This is true, to a certain degree. I've stopped lobbying for changes to the lich system. Not because I don't think it needs changes... but because DE has clearly shown me it doesnt matter if i do, so why waste my time trying to change something I cant?

At the end of the day we have two choices: Play the content or Don't. If you play the content, you are telling DE it is acceptable as is. Unfortunately, because i want the rewards, I have been playing the content and I will admit that I am part of the problem. If you don't play the content, this is the strongest message you can send to DE, because they love to look at their usage statistics. When DE sees by the numbers that no one is participating in a brand new system, it will become clear to them that they pooched it.

But I promise what DE will see in the near future is once people are done farming what they want, the system will be abandoned very quickly due to the lack of evergreen rewards and general poor reward of player time the lich system has. I've been saying this since the first day the Lich system dropped.

[CuChulainnWD]

1 minute ago, Skaleek said:

Yes and No. I think they are listening. I think they are just not responding. DE has adopted the "wait and see" approach. It almost feels like they think we are crying babies that will cry ourselves to sleep and stop complaining.

This is true, to a certain degree. I've stopped lobbying for changes to the lich system. Not because I don't think it needs changes... but because DE has clearly shown me it doesnt matter if i do, so why waste my time trying to change something I cant?

At the end of the day we have two choices: Play the content or Don't. If you play the content, you are telling DE it is acceptable as is. Unfortunately, because i want the rewards, I have been playing the content and I will admit that I am part of the problem. If you don't play the content, this is the strongest message you can send to DE, because they love to look at their usage statistics. When DE sees by the numbers that no one is participating in a brand new system, it will become clear to them that they pooched it.

But I promise what DE will see in the near future is once people are done farming what they want, the system will be abandoned very quickly due to the lack of evergreen rewards and general poor reward of player time the lich system has.

Yep. I stopped lich hunting pretty much around November when Bear gave us that fantastic news update. It was so awesome it put me right off the hunt all together. Combine that with the recent addition of the Slave Trade, the ridiculous RNG that compounds the Duplicate problem which could be easily be solved and add replay value to boot, and follow that up with a BioWare Anthem level of incompetence of no fun allowed, and DE wonders why people are fed up. I agree. Old Blood could be awesome. It is DE that is holding it back. EVERYTHING that they complain about (DE) saying the community is not happy with what they do, is a problem of their OWN Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo India November Golf making. They need to one realise it, accept it, own it and then Bloody act on it accordingly.

Instead we may get a little lip serivice to day from Reb on the matter, but what they really want us to focus on is Empyrean. Another "Coloured Lights will hypnotise" distraction from what could very well be another flop. We shall see in a couple hours or so. I too do not hold great hopes for the Devstream, or Empyrean if Old Blood and DE's past track record is anything to go by. They drop the ball too often now.

[ixidron92]

Seriously, Railjack being a 4 player gamemode with so many menial things to do sounds like a joke.

You have 4 players for: 2 turrets, 1 pilot, 1 big cannon, 2 forges, 1 archwing catapult, dealing with boarding parties, fixing hull breaches, putting out fires, farming resources live, boarding enemy ships, fighting in archwing mode alongside the railjack... 

Do the math DE. Too many things, not enough hands. In what universe do you think people will bother with the menial tasks? Everyone is gonna want to use the cannons or blast things in archwing mode, not play firefighter.

I predict an immediate disaster. Just look at the devstream. The developers showcasing it straight up sucked at every single task, and if it weren't for the unlimited HP they would have failed the mission several dozen times over. They ran out of ammo several times. Do you expect 4 random people speaking different languages to make things work?

 

Edited December 7, 2019 by ixidron92

[Genitive]

Did you miss the "this is not the gameplay we are going for" part?

[--F--NerevarCM]

6 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

Seriously, Railjack being a 4 player gamemode with so many menial things to do sounds like a joke.

You have 4 players for: 2 turrets, 1 pilot, 1 big cannon, 2 forges, 1 archwing catapult, dealing with boarding parties, fixing hull breaches, putting out fires, farming resources live, boarding enemy ships, fighting in archwing mode alongside the railjack... 

Do the math DE. I what universe do you think people will bother with the menial tasks? Everyone is wanna go use the cannons or blast things on archwing mode not play firefighter.

I predict an immediate disaster. Just look at the devstream. The developers showcasing it straight up sucked at every single task, and if it weren't for the unlimited HP they would have failed the mission several dozen times over. Do you expect 4 random people speaking different languages to make things work?

 

Then start the mission, drop the railjack and do everything with an archwing and stolen ships. Done.

[peterc3]

You've made a ton of assumptions and then gotten upset at DE based on those assumptions. I would expect most, if not all, people playing in the same region to speak the same language. If not speak, be able to read it. I would also expect they would be trying to show off as much as possible on stream. I am also going to assume those menial tasks are meant to distract you from being able to just light up every enemy continuously.

[ixidron92]

hace 1 minuto, -OP-NerevarCM dijo:

Then start the mission, drop the railjack and do everything with an archwing and stolen ships. Done.

And your railjack explodes and you fail the mission.

[--F--NerevarCM]

1 minute ago, ixidron92 said:

And your railjack explodes and you fail the mission.

And where DE said you fail the mission if your Railjack explodes? They said everyone die if they're inside.

Stop making assumptions man.

[Katinka]

With better guns and defensive passives I imagine the fires wouldn't be so much of a problem.  The stuff built in the forges can be built in advance and stocked up, they'll only be used in emergencies (imagine being able to build energy pizzas mid mission).  Archwing catapult and boarding enemy ships are two parts of the same thing...

As it is, I clicked on this thread thinking I actually wouldn't mind that, taking a support role, handling fires/enemy boarding parties/restocking/activating tactical abilities to support away teams...

[bad4youLT]

Hek as long as Il have competent enough crew Il do that , run around fixing holes and crafting ammo.

[ixidron92]

hace 1 minuto, peterc3 dijo:

You've made a ton of assumptions and then gotten upset at DE based on those assumptions. I would expect most, if not all, people playing in the same region to speak the same language. If not speak, be able to read it. I would also expect they would be trying to show off as much as possible on stream. I am also going to assume those menial tasks are meant to distract you from being able to just light up every enemy continuously.

Hello! EU has several dozen languages. Asia has several dozen languages. It's easy for US to collaborate, but try that when the guy on your team starts replying with Cyrillic characters.

Heck, this is gonna be worse in Asia. Chinese, Korean, Hindi, Japanese, all have different characters. I think Mainland China has its own servers though. 

I give it a 7/10 chances people are just gonna park their railjack far away from battle and do the entire mission in archwing mode.

[Viges]

Just now, bad4youLT said:

Hek as long as Il have competent enough crew Il do that , run around fixing holes and crafting ammo.

No you won't, stop lying

[Wakata]

I want to put out fires, thats what i was expecting from this game mode.
People that dont want to do the tasks at hand will explode with the rest of the ship.
Natural selection.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Wakata

[Genitive]

1 minute ago, ixidron92 said:

Hello! EU has several dozen languages. Asia has several dozen languages. It's easy for US to collaborate, but try that when the guy on your team starts replying with Cyrillic characters.

In that case you will go to the recruiting chat and look for English-speaking players.

[ixidron92]

Justo ahora, Genitive dijo:

In that case you will go to the recruiting chat and look for English-speaking players.

And that's how you instantly kill a gamemode.

[Genitive]

Just now, ixidron92 said:

And that's how you instantly kill a gamemode.

Why?

[Rogunz]

20 minutes ago, -OP-NerevarCM said:

And where DE said you fail the mission if your Railjack explodes? They said everyone die if they're inside.

Stop making assumptions man.

If it doesn't the railjack will be completely pointless since archwings can do everything it does without wasting consumables.

 

They were talking about enemy ships when they said people would die, without the railjack there isn't any way to navigate back to the next mission.

[ixidron92]

Justo ahora, Rogunz dijo:

If it doesn't the railjack will be completely pointless since archwings can do everything it does without wasting consumables.

 

They were talking about enemy ships when they said people would die, without the railjack there isn't any way to navigate back to the next mission.

I guess it would be disabled at first and you'd have to repair it, much like reviving a downed player, but yeah, there has to be a way to fail the mission, otherwise it's pointless to have an HP bar at all.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

I don’t mind the going around and patching up holes gameplay. I do very much mind the fact that we need to spend ship resources to reload our fire extinguisher tho. That’s honestly just dumb.

[GruntBlender]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I don’t mind the going around and patching up holes gameplay. I do very much mind the fact that we need to spend ship resources to reload our fire extinguisher tho. That’s honestly just dumb.

Not just the resources gained in the mission either, the captain can spend their own resources to make consumables that other players will use. Does anyone believe the expensive missiles you craft won't be gone in the first minute? One of the randos you pick up will either troll you by wasting them or just waste them on weak fighters because it's fun.

[Lightel03]

They did say that kind of menial stuff woud be balanced and toned down, so I don`t think that`s anything to worry about in the future.

23 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I do very much mind the fact that we need to spend ship resources to reload our fire extinguisher tho. That’s honestly just dumb.

Yeah that`s kind of stupid.