Devstream: Empyrean, Feed Back. Are you Listening DE?

[Serafim_94]

Remember Ignis Wraith, and operation during which it first became available? If there was one thing that operation showed, it's how massive amount of solo-clans is in Warframe community. Even now, whenever somebody complains about Railjack being locked behind clan, the very first answer is usually "just solo-clan it". Which, as far as building goes, is and always was a viable strategy.

However, Jack at release will not be viable for solo-play. They are essentially delaying the whole crew system, from what I understood. By the way, that means converted Liches are going to remain useless trash for some more time.

Railjack, by design, is impossible to pug. I had that suspicion ever since it got announced, and now it's confirmed. It requires over-optimized teamplay not found in public matches, period.

For solo-clans, that makes Railjack content borderline unavailable. Your only way to do it is going to be recruit chat - which, let's face it, is absolutely horrible, and long overdue for its own 2.0. Which will mean unending stream of usual "raid" BS - LF MR50 300+ caps on release day. Maybe somebody is ready to stomach it - personally, I'm not. For me delay of command and crew means delay of the whole Railjack content.

It's one thing if NPC system is not quite ready to be released with the rest of Empyrean. However, if solo-jack is getting delayed just for the sake of forcing us to coop - I really hope DE will reconsider. It's a bad decision.

[StinkyPygmy]

They already said it was being delayed because they needed to get everyone they can working on The New War.

Has nothing to do with forcing coop.

[Clats01]

3 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

It's a bad decision.

its a coop game, if you want to whine and moan take it somewhere else, even the devs have said its a coop game but apparently none of you solo kids seem to understand that.

[FLSH_BNG]

You clearly missed the part of the devstream where they said that we'd get to re-spec when the update was released so that when the solo content is available we can start with the affinity we've already earned and put it where we would like to spend it.

[Fl_3]

5 minutes ago, Clats01 said:

its a coop game, if you want to whine and moan take it somewhere else, even the devs have said its a coop game but apparently none of you solo kids seem to understand that.

Tell us about your last amazing co-op experience?

Mine was in a syndicate mission. This guy whined and moaned and insulted us for almost 5 minutes because the rest of the team was looking for the medallions while he wanted to extract as soon as the objective was completed

After everyone else had found them we went to extraction and he left so that we had to wait an extra minute until we could finally extract. He actually left the extraction point and sat on the floor in front of it like some kind of sulking child!

Damn, I just love me those awesome co-op moments given to me by the "totally not toxic" players in this game.

Just wait until you get wipe after wipe after wipe because your screaming at random people to fix your railjack but they're too busy ignoring you to do what they want to do to help you.

I'm looking forward to seeing your posts about it on the forums.

[.Tyberos.]

You know that we have things called alliance?

[Miyabi-sama]

16 минут назад, Serafim_94 сказал:

Which will mean unending stream of usual "raid" BS - LF MR50 300+ caps on release day.

This is entirely overexagerrated point, showing your bias and disrespect towards lfg chat.

While LFG system is aged and needs replacement, assuming everyone there is what you described in OP is very insulting attitude.

What is shown in Devstream is nowhere near that hardcory as Eidolon hunt. Which means I assure you can, and will, find yourself a party to Jack.

[bad4youLT]

Railjack isint a solo expirience , where is nothing to DElay.

[Loza03]

Bear in mind, they also said Eidolons weren't solo content either. Look where that went. Hell, Sheldon even said he solo'd Railjack missions, without the crew system.

Also bear in mind, I am a solo player when saying this.

 

[CuChulainnWD]

The Devstream has come and past. I slept on it, chewing over what we were shown, and if it lived up to my expectations. I think I am as angry as I am cautiously optimistic.

DE asked for and got our Feed back in spades, that would greatly improve my (our?) enjoyment of the Old Blood. For Steve to claim surprise that people do not want to be Banded to death, but to take a legitimate kill from a Lich, or for the Lich to behave as promised... as a Lich, is rubbish. Yeah, fine it's nice to have a Lich actually smack us around, and they can do so legitimately not cheaply as happens when you Fail a Req Check. For the gang not to get that is disingenuous. in my books.

As I predicted when @[DE]Rebecca announced they would redress the Old Blood in the Empyrean Devstream, it would indeed be lip service. No one asked for a "Paladino" banish a Lich solution. Some may have obscurely asked for a chance to banish a Lich perhaps. If they wanted to make use of Iron Wake, let our converted Lich hang out there. It would be nice to hear their witty repartee.  They failed to address any of the points we have made I have made in the original post.

I really do hope Empyrean lives up to the hype they are creating, because whether you think it Hyperbole or not DE, the days of half assing development and sweeping Feed Back under the rug is coming to an end.

Fingers crossed everyone because this one can go either way. We have seen companies fail for less and take a beating. Yet companies can succeed when they practice a little less is more, and deliver on promises made with replayable, enjoyable complete systems.

[(PSN)reddragonhrcro]

Either they delay the update or release it at a later date as is and we know how people feel about delays. Obviously the AI system for it isn't ready and still needs work for it to be delayed.

[AlmightyPancake]

9 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

This is entirely overexagerrated point, showing your bias and disrespect towards lfg chat.

While LFG system is aged and needs replacement, assuming everyone there is what you described in OP is very insulting attitude.

What is shown in Devstream is nowhere near that hardcory as Eidolon hunt. Which means I assure you can, and will, find yourself a party to Jack.

Not only that, but the devs made it EXTREMELY clear that while playing railjack missions solo would be more difficult than playing co-op, they would not be impossible. If you want to whine that playing solo in a system designed around co-op play should not be challenging, then I don't think you should be attempting to play it solo.

[Miyabi-sama]

3 минуты назад, Loza03 сказал:

Bear in mind, they also said Eidolons weren't solo content either. Look where that went. Hell, Sheldon even said he solo'd Railjack missions, without the crew system.

Also bear in mind, I am a solo player when saying this.

 

To be frank, you gotta be very good at this game and have a top gear to go solo Eidolons.

What is shown in recent stream does not look that complex even remotely.

[Loza03]

7 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

To be frank, you gotta be very good at this game and have a top gear to go solo Eidolons.

What is shown in recent stream does not look that complex even remotely.

Exactly.

Well, I'd say just in terms of number of mechanics that Railjack is a more complex, but likely it'll have far more margin for error and builds, especially when you've upgraded your ship a bit, as opposed to Eidolons which, when you get down to it, are mostly complex through the base mechanics, with a handful of unique ones of their own. Everything we see in Devstream 134 seemed to be with the base, rank 0 weaponry, shields and reactor and very few integrated avionics. So there's probably some streamlining of our own we can do we haven't seen too.

[Xepthrichros]

12 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

*waterboy hydroid main Mr20 250 runs -"inv"

Watch Hydroid be the meta pick cos he comes with abilities that prevent or put out fires faster than any other warframe 😂

[Alvengerz]

I just hope that DE would make railjack un-solo-able. Just like LoR and JV. Both were the only un-solo-able mission in-game. I guess it's just a false hope then.

[Steel_Rook]

4 minutes ago, Alvengerz said:

I just hope that DE would make railjack un-solo-able. Just like LoR and JV. Both were the only un-solo-able mission in-game. I guess it's just a false hope then.

That's a bit like saying "I hope any planet past Jupiter is impossible to solo." Not only is it arrogant in the extreme, you're also proposing the locking of a massive chunk of the game to a massive chunk of its audience. This is not reasonable. More than that, there's no benefit to barring solo players from... Pretty much anything. You can argue the design will suffer, but again - no it will not. A properly-designed multiplayer experience is always playable with well-designed bots. I played Payday 2 entirely solo despite it being clearly designed for a team via AI mods, I played Barotrauma entirely solo despite subs clearly being designed for 5+ people. This is doable, and DE appear to intend to do it.

More to the point, DE seem to be conflating "co-op" with "four player co-op." I'm not entirely a solo player of Warframe. I have a single close friend who also plays so we often play together. That gives us a crew of 2 so that's co-op multiplayer experience, right? I'm in Eastern Europe, he's in the US, it doesn't get more international than that. But is that going to be "co-op enough?" Rockstar made the same mistake with their own heists in GTA 5, locking them to a mandatory four-person team even when it wasn't necessary. We very rarely had four people. Getting two was easy, sometimes we could get three, but getting four people from across multiple time zones was a pain, so we never really got to play them. Making team-centric content is fine, but requiring large teams is a whole other thing altogether.

 

On topic:
I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, delaying parts of Railjack to a later date is understandable. That's a massive project which DE are already massively behind on. They've tried to buy time by launching slapped-together scraps of whatever they had finished just to placate the masses and pretend to be hitting deadlines but it's not working. That's where a competent manager is supposed to step in and make some tough decisions. Pick your battles, decide what you can actually deliver, push back what you can't and just do your job. Deliver a finished, functioning product first even if it's not everything that was promised, then worry about expanding it later. That's smart development and something they should have done all along.

On the other hand, the fact that DE got to this point in the first place is a failure of management. They don't have a publisher to report to, they set their own deadlines, they plan their own projects. And yet, they have consistently chosen to tackle projects too large for them to handle within the timeframes they set for themselves, they have consistently chosen to NOT also tackle smaller projects they can deliver, they have consistently chosen to rush releases before they're ready rather than delaying them. That they have Railjack barely functional to the point that their development build is still full of placeholders, unfinished assets and coding bugs with clearly wonky balance this long after they released the actual Railjack IS NOT GOOD. Delays are understandable, but mismanagement isn't.

Again, I'm fine with waiting for the Command ability set, even if I end up having to wait longer. Fair enough. That doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.

[Nezha_Rose]

As long as Im not host, Im game. I like how DE finally added an option to opt out hosting for a mission.

I rather solo than host and have people insult me due to lag I have no control over.

Now I hope theyll do the same for other missions and opt out hosting.
 

Quote

I just hope that DE would make railjack un-solo-able. Just like LoR and JV. Both were the only un-solo-able mission in-game. I guess it's just a false hope then.

Thats a hot take if I ever seen one. Maybe comments like these is why we have solo players in the first place?

Edited December 7, 2019 by Nezha_Rose

[DoomFruit]

21 hours ago, Skaleek said:

If you play the content, you are telling DE it is acceptable as is.

This, right here, is the key point for everything. "Liches", hema, anything else objectionable. Just refuse it. Never touch it. In any manner - don't grind it and absolutely never spend plat on or trade for it. Leave it as a festering wound in DE's usage stats.

No matter how much it may go against your Pokemon instincts, let it go. It's not easy to do it the first time, but once you've crossed that mental threshold (for me, it was the hema), all the subsequent refusals get a lot easier.

Sure, I want the flintlock rifle - it would be an absolutely perfect weapon for my Hydroid space pirate captain if Railjack turns out to be worth playing. But I don't want it enough to go wading neck deep in bullS#&$ to fish one out (along with the horrible grind of fishing another 40 out until I get a decent roll).

[Avienas]

33 minutes ago, (PS4)reddragonhrcro said:

Either they delay the update or release it at a later date as is and we know how people feel about delays. Obviously the AI system for it isn't ready and still needs work for it to be delayed.

Honestly i would rather they delay that update to put some more polish on Kuva liches and older systems they should seriously condense to make room for another `huge system` which is obviously going to involve a huge amount of time sink that likely get done rather fast by the `experts`, i finally manage to get my last lich (which is about 18 in total) to get the 13th weapon and i rather not do the entire thing ever again. Closest thing i will probably do for it is just stock the Mods to then sell the excess for plat, cause just like with ESO, Arbitration, K-drives, Bounties, i have little care to do them these days since not much reason for me to peel for them at the moment exists.

I mean sure, i could sell arcanes, make new zaws, keep that standing stock topped off after i clean out all the remaining cosmetics on all those game modes, etc. But not much point even exists when some of them have Zero real use for me.

36 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

To be frank, you gotta be very good at this game and have a top gear to go solo Eidolons.

What is shown in recent stream does not look that complex even remotely.

Without seeing the accurate bits, i would just say that most of it clearly shows us what kind of grind stock we are going to have, especially even if they `readjust` the material cost for ammos, those fabrications better be making multiple counts per `crafting`, No one enjoys making single bits of ammo repeatedly. Which if the railjack fights are not something quick, we better be allowed to make hundreds of stock with relative ease then.

As for Eidolons, well it still honestly more of a niche fest of having interactions to CHEESE the shield portion. Breaking the limbs are the easy part, since we got plenty of frames who can damage buff and b.s. like riven mods to make sniper rifles/bows into some ridiculous stuff, to where now people can just meme the eidolons fast using gunblades and the Paracesis sword.

Though i assume it would be slightly more difficult if we didnt have things like Ancient specters to give the middle finger towards heavy damage instances. Never the less for Railjack, considering the rough size idea i got of it, i would hope they have that solo option or the automated crew option, since we all know its never a good idea to rely on public randos unless its in a polished game-state which will nudge those randos towards the right actions. Otherwise, just like a certain youtuber has pointed out thru colorful imagery & what not, The ship will basically get destroyed repeatedly with a crew of random joes.

33 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Exactly.

Well, I'd say just in terms of number of mechanics that Railjack is a more complex, but likely it'll have far more margin for error and builds, especially when you've upgraded your ship a bit, as opposed to Eidolons which, when you get down to it, are mostly complex through the base mechanics, with a handful of unique ones of their own. Everything we see in Devstream 134 seemed to be with the base, rank 0 weaponry, shields and reactor and very few integrated avionics. So there's probably some streamlining of our own we can do we haven't seen too.

I would like to say thats kind of a bit slight irony, In order to raise that room for error idea, you would need to get all sorts of gear upgraded, which does not help you need to farm that gear using a base version of a ship. Which is not exactly going to have a friendly low-player to solo-player system on release, which likely mean the difficulty to get the parts just to have it easier would be delayed as a result of that conundrum.

Now, if these act as permanent upgrades that we do not need to deal with some ridiculous part dancing around, then that might be fine, They may of got rid of the energy load management silly, which basically means one less toxic system that could have some people be real jerks and complaining about certain guns are not on, but the `owner` of the ship either wants to be a troll by keeping them off or has to afk to eat dinner, without telling anyone once again.

Never the less, Till we get our hands on it finally, Its best to honestly keep doubting that D.E. likely did some backwards logic design fkery that will require half a dozen or even 2 dozen hotfixes till the content is in a some-what bearable state. Not acceptable, but likely decent enough to stomach thru all the necessary bits and likely leave the ship to gather dust till the next `decent` content arrives with it.

Which does not help that its going to become either another abandoned system or take up considerable resources of them expanding on that, Instead of taking measures to fix issues still currently going on with warframe. I certainly am not a fan of exterminate enemies seem to have more erratic spawning to where a bunch could spawn on top of me after i cleared the room completely, only 10 seconds after that or the navigation marker shenigans that feel like has been getting even worst recently.

[DoomFruit]

16 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I don’t mind the going around and patching up holes gameplay. I do very much mind the fact that we need to spend ship resources to reload our fire extinguisher tho. That’s honestly just dumb.

Oh, it could be worse.

"20 fire extinguisher charges* for 5 EA Spacebux!"

*Fire Extinguishers use Argon and turn back into a pumpkin at the stroke of midnight. Warranty void in California. Buyer waives all rights to sue in court and submits to mandatory arbitration.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

Good grief. It's gone beyond ridiculous right now. 

[Xzorn]

I wouldn't worry much about it. Eidolons were supposed to be group based big spooky nighttime fights also.

The only way DE can make something coop in Warframe is using cheap tricks like stand here and do a trivial task or literally set a minimum group limit to start the mission otherwise people would have Solo'd Raids. Most likely it will be stand here and do trivial tasks because actual coop strategy escapes this game.

Then again this is yet another module system. Something they claimed to be avoiding so it's possible though unlikely they balanced it that way.

[(PSN)drollive96]

I'm tired of hearing solo players complain about playing with other people in an online coop game. Its an online game, the point of online games are that you are playing / interacting with other people. DE should just release an offline mode where there are no other players if there are this many antisocial people in this community that want privacy. So that way solo players wouldn't have to talk to anyone and live in their own personal bubble.  

[dota_Icarus]

Complain complain complain,

Right now there is no coop experience beside eidolon hunt, so people complains about the missing coop experience

Now de showed railjack, a system which basicly means teamplay pve or you die...

And now people complain about to much coop requirements 

They already said it is just DElayed, not cancelled.

Honestly Railjack brings that old coop feeling we knew from classic coop game, kinda