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CuChulainnWD

Devstream: Empyrean, Feed Back. Are you Listening DE?

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Don't forget unless youre  a cop you can't tell someone that what their doing is illegal 

Well a cop or a lawyer, the lawyer subclass is a bit OP at the moment though.

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6 hours ago, Alvengerz said:

I just hope that DE would make railjack un-solo-able. Just like LoR and JV. Both were the only un-solo-able mission in-game. I guess it's just a false hope then.

What benefit would making them entirely unsoloable serve aside from alienating solo players entirely?

Its one thing for the content to be more difficult solo, its another to just.... lock people out for no reason.

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1 minute ago, StinkyPygmy said:

Its one thing for the content to be more difficult solo, its another to just.... lock people out for no reason.

Because this is supposed to be a co-op game. Duh. Says so in the game's description! /s

On topic: There's no benefit to alienating solo players at all. I would in fact argue that doing so will start a downward spiral for Warframe.

Let's not forget that this game's success was built largely on positive word of mouth from lots of happy players. Conversely, Warframe can die by negative word of mouth from lots of angry and dissatisfied players as well.

 

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15 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Because this is supposed to be a co-op game. Duh. Says so in the game's description! /s

On topic: There's no benefit to alienating solo players at all. I would in fact argue that doing so will start a downward spiral for Warframe.

Let's not forget that this game's success was built largely on positive word of mouth from lots of happy players. Conversely, Warframe can die by negative word of mouth from lots of angry and dissatisfied players as well.

 

I saw someone mention lor. But while people weren't necessarily fond of it I can say I never heard people hate lor because it required teamwork. The thing about lor was back in the day that was one of the very very few things that was considered Co-op play and it was known. Again it's accessible through anyone withouhg a massive grind Wall. And while it wasn't hard it wasn't easy. Plus the rewards and the gameplay made it sustainable.  

When lor was removed that honestly was the last co-op centered game mode. They let it stay like this till now.... Now there is no Need for the idea of Co-op play

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3 hours ago, Alvengerz said:

I do have a reason behind my statement. A well-designed co-op multiplayer game always requires human as a player in order for it to be a multiplayer game, not multibot game. This game as a whole is solo-able (including eidolon variant and big spider variant). Yet this game has no game mode that contribute to a real co-op experience when it is meant to be a co-op focused game like I quoted above.

No offence, but citing a Google link blurb is pretty bad reason, especially when you're still dancing around my main source of critique. Anything you can do solo, you can do in co-op. I've yet to see a reasonable argument for why that doesn't apply. And it's not like Warframe doesn't at least attempt to scale content to a full team. Moreover, it's not like Warframe doesn't offer benefits to bringing a varied premade team into missions. Why does solo play have to be literally impossible for an activity to be considered co-op? Because the opposite has never been the case - an activity has never been required to bar team-mates from assisting in order to be considered soloable. What benefit is there to deliberately excluding players from an activity? What, considering the means to do so seem to boil down to pointless busywork which simply exists to resist automation.

Again, look at Payday 2. It's a four-player co-op game which requires a fair bit of coordination on higher difficulty settings... Yet I've been able to entirely get around that via bot mods which allow me to issue order to the bots. The same goes for Barotrauma. The game is, by design, a large-scale co-op game with certain subs going up to a crew of 20. At the same time, the game can still be played with bots who are reasonably good at most complex tasks like shooting guns and repairing the hull and exceptionally good at the pointless busywork of managing the reactor or repairing constantly-deteriorating devices. Sure, they can't do a lot of the more complex tasks themselves - mostly crafting and putting things back where they took them - but that's an issue of AI implementation not an issue of co-op.

Long story short, I fail to see why being able to play co-op with commanded, competent bots is a bad thing or why it makes the game any less co-op. Sure, Railjack won't ship with that because they're desperately behind schedule, fine. I can live with that delay. But what's the point of arguing against it? Is it not, in fact, just as unreasonable as if I asked for all Story content to be solo-only even where it doesn't have to be?

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5 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Yet I've been able to entirely get around that via bot mods which allow me to issue order to the bots

Not in the base game

 

 

. And while I get what you're saying payday and warframe are two different entities. One has a much better structure with balancing and dosent give players the power of a God. With that being said. All if not all, most content in game currently can be done with the vanilla warframe game. In payday it requires immense communication and the description of the game matches that. While warframe is a co-op game in description stats and the player base has shown that this is more of a single player experience mostly for players 

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1 minute ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Not in the base game.

Yeah, but that's irrelevant. The point is that the game CAN be played reasonably well with the right bot AI programming and balance, to the point where the game remains as challenging as played with a full team but without requiring other players. Whether it was Overkill who implemented it or whether players implemented it themselves, it's doable and I for one still see no downside to it.

 

3 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

And while I get what you're saying payday and warframe are two different entities. One has a much better structure with balancing and dosent give players the power of a God. With that being said. All if not all, most content in game currently can be done with the vanilla warframe game. In payday it requires immense communication and the description of the game matches that. While warframe is a co-op game in description stats and the player base has shown that this is more of a single player experience mostly for players.

Honestly, the difference isn't as significant. While Payday 2 DOES generally take more communication or at least knowing what you're supposed to do, proper bot control tools CAN very much make up for missing players. Of course, that shifts situational awareness heavily onto the player controlling them (in Payday's case the host) which can make things harder to manage and still leads to doing most things yourself, but it's doable. Best of all, it offers a choice. You can choose to invest in Command and run with bots and simply accept that you'll have to micromanage them to a large extent, or you can choose to build for any of the other skills and run with a crew. From my perspective, everybody wins. The only downside is that - yes - these kinds of bots have to be made, and they have to be both smart and active. That's not trivial which is why DE are putting it off, probably until 2020.

Basically, I see no downside to having content which can be run both solo or on a team because I see nothing that human players can do that half-way decent bots can't be instructed to do.

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I appreciate all of the civil comments and discussion being had in this thread. That said, it appears a moderator thought to merge my thread with another since at least page 3. I would ask that all of you posting, to please consider reading my  OP and kindly leave a remark. Thanks.

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8 hours ago, Fl_3 said:

Tell us about your last amazing co-op experience?

 

I have these things many people forget exist in warframe. I like to call them friends, and even if I only play with 2-3 of them and we get 1 random we just laugh and dont care what is going on in the mission we mess around way more than actually doing the mission.

However, you asked for my last coop, It was a few days ago since i have not played since then. I started a node my lich had taken over, joined a squad with the other 3 already in mission and we ran for about 5-6 more after without an issue.

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Honestly, I think I'm about done leaving feedback of any kind for DE.

After that last devstream, I'm convinced that Steve pretty much ignores feedback he doesn't like and just does whatever he pleases anyway.

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2 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Honestly, I think I'm about done leaving feedback of any kind for DE.

After that last devstream, I'm convinced that Steve pretty much ignores feedback he doesn't like and just does whatever he pleases anyway.

Coincidentally, that precedent has been set by him in previous devstreams. This one being the straw that broke the camels back?

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20 minutes ago, CuChulainnWD said:

This one being the straw that broke the camels back?

Yup.

On a side note, a friend of mine pretty much quit the game after hearing about the stream.

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26 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Yup.

On a side note, a friend of mine pretty much quit the game after hearing about the stream.

Remember though, all this doom and gloom we speak of, it is "Hyperbole" according to some DE staff.  *nods nods nods* I do remember a Steve that was a much more humble and appreciative man. It's almost like the community good will and financial support magically appeared after their Ad campaign, forgetting that it was their original word of mouth community that made that possible for them.

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On 2019-12-08 at 2:16 AM, .Decado. said:

You know that we have things called alliance?

We don't. Armistice means we can't form alliances. 

Edit: I was wrong, we can still form alliances.

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En 6/12/2019 a las 21:51, ixidron92 dijo:

Seriously, Railjack being a 4 player gamemode with so many menial things to do sounds like a joke.

You have 4 players for: 2 turrets, 1 pilot, 1 big cannon, 2 forges, 1 archwing catapult, dealing with boarding parties, fixing hull breaches, putting out fires, farming resources live, boarding enemy ships, fighting in archwing mode alongside the railjack... 

Do the math DE. Too many things, not enough hands. In what universe do you think people will bother with the menial tasks? Everyone is gonna want to use the cannons or blast things in archwing mode, not play firefighter.

I predict an immediate disaster. Just look at the devstream. The developers showcasing it straight up sucked at every single task, and if it weren't for the unlimited HP they would have failed the mission several dozen times over. They ran out of ammo several times. Do you expect 4 random people speaking different languages to make things work?

 

Apparently they merged my thread with another one because of reasons and without asking. Not too fond of that. Specially considering we talk about completely different things.

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17 hours ago, Clats01 said:

I have these things many people forget exist in warframe. I like to call them friends, and even if I only play with 2-3 of them and we get 1 random we just laugh and dont care what is going on in the mission we mess around way more than actually doing the mission.

However, you asked for my last coop, It was a few days ago since i have not played since then. I started a node my lich had taken over, joined a squad with the other 3 already in mission and we ran for about 5-6 more after without an issue.

How do you think random co-op is going to work for you when the entire mission relies on keeping your ship alive? 

Will you be willing to be the one running around your ship repairing it while everyone else is out there having all the fun?

I'm not talking about playing with friends, I'm talking about playing with totally random people, many of who probably don't even speak English to a level where they can understand you when you start typing to them, Warframe is a global game after all.

Or, will you just wait and look at your railjack until the right people log in for you to team up with?

Or will you play solo?

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57 minutes ago, Fl_3 said:

How do you think random co-op is going to work for you when the entire mission relies on keeping your ship alive?

Compromise and improvise. It may just be my luck with randoms but I tend to run into people who are willing to learn from their errors if they make any (of course I do run into the true pug random every now and then)

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28 minutes ago, (PS4)RazorPhoenix970 said:

Compromise and improvise. It may just be my luck with randoms but I tend to run into people who are willing to learn from their errors if they make any (of course I do run into the true pug random every now and then)

Whereas I run into people who either never talk in chat and run off doing their own thing or trash-talk in chat insisting everything be done THEIR way. A friend of mine's been pushing me into doing public Void fissures, and it's nothing but irritation. We had a guy explode in chat about "How hard is it to guard your own towers!" then quit after the first wave. We've consistently had people in Survival running off trying to kill everything themselves, splitting up the spawns and running us low on Life Support. Almost every time we sit down to open a few Relics and get some Reactant, people leave after a couple of rotations. He talked me into trying one of the Grendel missions, and that ended with a pubbie complaining that my friend was AFK (he wasn't). I don't know where you guys find these people, but the vast majority of pubbies I run into - on the rare occasion I open my game up to pubbies - are insufferable. The very best I can hope for is them at least not actively working against us, but that's about it.

Creating an entire system which require close coordination on random public teams is not going to work. Simple as that. Unless I bring my own friends on voice chat - of which I currently have all of one easily available - then I'm looking at a frustrating experience that I've no interest in engaging in. If Railjack can be run with two people, great - we'll do it. If we HAVE to have pubbies on board, then no thanks. I'll go back to Barotrauma if I want the experience of constantly dying because everyone's too busy telling me how to do my job that they can't find the time to do theirs.

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18 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

We don't. Armistice means we can't form alliances. 

That's not the case. I left my old clan because they decided to research the Hema, but formed an alliance with them a few months ago so that I could still play in this squad link thing with them when railjacks eventually came out.

Clantech alliance research and rail conquests are what got disabled, but alliances themselves still remain.

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7 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

That's not the case. I left my old clan because they decided to research the Hema, but formed an alliance with them a few months ago so that I could still play in this squad link thing with them when railjacks eventually came out.

Clantech alliance research and rail conquests are what got disabled, but alliances themselves still remain.

Well I'll be.. I was wrong, and was corrected without insult. The internet has changed...

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On 2019-12-04 at 6:42 PM, CuChulainnWD said:

the Vauban Ember Reworks

Only thing wrong with those is Ember's 1 isn't worth using. Vauban is amazing now.

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Just now, Kimimoto said:

Only thing wrong with those is Ember's 1 isn't worth using. Vauban is amazing now.

He is really good I agree. Some would argru he could use a couple more tweaks. Ember on the other hand needs an energy pool increase, and her 3 could use an energy cost reduction, whilst her heat build up needs more refinement. It still builds up way too fast even when modding for duration and efficiency. 

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54 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

Vauban is amazing now.

Agreed, only parts of him that I don't like are the Tether Coil (I'd rather just use Vortex) and the Boost Pad (which deploys too slow to be useful).

I even unironically use his Tesla now, back before that I wouldn't have used Tesla if somebody offered me 20 plat per use.

Other than those 2 parts of Minelayer the Vauban rework is so good I have been tempted as hek to buy the prime access for him just because of how fun he is now.

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On 2019-12-07 at 8:26 AM, Nezha_Rose said:

As long as Im not host, Im game. I like how DE finally added an option to opt out hosting for a mission.

I rather solo than host and have people insult me due to lag I have no control over.

Now I hope theyll do the same for other missions and opt out hosting.
 

Thats a hot take if I ever seen one. Maybe comments like these is why we have solo players in the first place?

Totally this I get tired of joining people that have bad computers or internet connections and they know it, I had a guy actually ask me to invite him so that I would be forced to host because his computer would over heat hosting 4 people and crash.  There really BADLY needs to be an option for (prefer not to host) or something like that during match making

I have a high end gaming tower with 400mbs internet connection and don't mind being the host.

And in most cases it's not the players fault they have a bad connection because of were they live (or are at sea as the case might be for military people)

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1 minute ago, Davetiger said:

Totally this I get tired of joining people that have bad computers or internet connections and they know it, I had a guy actually ask me to invite him so that I would be forced to host because his computer would over heat hosting 4 people and crash.  There really BADLY needs to be an option for (prefer not to host) or something like that during match making

I have a high end gaming tower with 400mbs internet connection and don't mind being the host.

Im almost always selecting and canceling missions to be sure i join an existing squad. I cause slight lag because my whole family hogs the net, and even I know... slight lag is annoying.

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