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Give All Equipment Reserved Slots For Stat Improving Mods


DeadlyNerd
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Before you start shouting "but that'll make the game easier a lot more than it is now" hear me out.

 

In every RPG so far, every item was designed to give ideal basic stats for certain character builds. This is mainly because that way it's easier to balance those builds. There are a lot less variables in play.

That principle works and it shouldn't be ignored.

 

In Warframe for instance, redirection and vitality are mandatory mods if you want to stay alive on 80+ alerts and tier 3 void. Those mods don't grant invincibility every 10sec, but basic stats, shield and health points. On weapons serration, killing blow, pressure point and hornet strike are mandatory as well and they also only improve a basic weapon stat.

A lot mods remain unused because stat mods take up their figuratively reserved slots and a lot of possible builds are never brought to their full potential because there's a mod slot missing due to those stat mods taking up their slots.

This creates a lot of imbalance when new weapons are introduced as a lot of dynamic variables have to be accounted for.

 

I propose the following:

 

Give each item, secondary,primary,melee and warframe special slots reserved for stat mods only.

Warframes : health, shields, armor, abilities(not stats but you understand why)

Ranged Weapons : damage, rate of fire, reload speed, magazine size

Melee Weapons : damage, charge damage, swing speed, charge speed

 

That looks like an awful lot of mod space left in regular slots. That's why the number of slots is reduced by 4(ability slots) for warframes and by 2 for weapons.

That leaves both weapons and warframes and 6 mod slots. Still enough to play with, but not enough to use up every single mod that's left.

 

"But, weapons are now extremely powerful." Exactly, but we've eliminated their basic stats as dynamic variables. They're all static now and represent progress, rather than customization.

Now, it's a lot easier to design, and balance current, weapons without making another one extremely underpowered in comparison and then going back and forth.

 

No, this is not a standalone suggestion and should be considered only when attempting to execute a balancing of the core system.

 

 

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The problem is that then you are determining what people require. I for instance haven't used vitality since I was a total noob, have never seen a point in anything but Redirection, or Redirection + Vigor for even more shields on frames that come with two defensive polarities. I have clan mates who feel the same way, or use only Vigor, even one that doesn't use any.

 

We all get benefits and downsides based on these choices, but your system would basically take that away. Can't see how that would be increasing build diversity.

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The problem is that then you are determining what people require. I for instance haven't used vitality since I was a total noob, have never seen a point in anything but Redirection, or Redirection + Vigor for even more shields on frames that come with two defensive polarities. I have clan mates who feel the same way, or use only Vigor, even one that doesn't use any.

 

We all get benefits and downsides based on these choices, but your system would basically take that away. Can't see how that would be increasing build diversity.

Actually what you said about redirection is exactly what I'm trying to take out from the warframe/weapon customization. Telling people to improve their shields and hp is not telling them what they require, merely presenting them with "alternate advancement".

 

Putting in Redirection and Vitality is no longer called a sacrifice, but a mandatory action. Whenever there's a mandatory buff, diversity is lower.

Just imagine if you didn't have to put in Redirection and use up that 1 slot. There's frame speed, frame stamina, 2xduration increasing mods, ability improving mods x3(duration,power,efficiency), frame energy, shield recharge, knockdown resist etc.

This is what should be used in customization, not basic stat improvements.

 

 

I agree that some mods are far better and are needed in every single build but clip size and reload speed are not one of them, and it would kinda kill customization. Perhaps just damage mods for guns and shields/maybe abilities for Frames?

I thought that too at first but found out that only removing 1 mandatory mod isn't really going to cut it. You'll still want(need) your weapon to shoot fast,reload fast and have a bigger mag.
 
A more inline solution would be to turn those mods(speed trigger,fast hands,magazine warp) into common 10 rank high mods. Distribute the current maximum bonus throughout those 10 ranks and you've got a form of weapon advancement, just like serration.
Edited by DeadlyNerd
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Putting in Redirection and Vitality is no longer called a sacrifice, but a mandatory action. 

My point was that this is just your opinion, I do a TON of high level and t3 content and never, ever equip Vitality. I know plenty of other people who feel the same way as I do, that it is a completely unnecessary waste of mod points and a slot. So I get to equip one more mod than anyone who feels it's necessary, that's build diversity. I don't equip it, so I get to stack continuity and constitution, or streamline and flow, etc.

 

With your set-up I still get to do what I'm doing now, only with no sacrifice, more health, and possibly a few extra unneeded mods, I'm guessing the new meta would be movement mods but who knows. I'm still going to equip everything that I can in the space allotted, adding more space just increases the over all power level. There will still be a meta that is seen as the most effective, or "required" for high level content.

 

Edit: and what about people with highly polarized frames that have dumped multiple power slots to specialize more highly. Your setup just assumes everyone wants all their powers equipped, makes them required in fact. Again, that's a loss of diversity.

Edited by RedDirtTrooper
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I have made a somewhat similar suggestions although, only proposed for Warframes (not weapons) although quite thoroughly imo.

 

Look in the spoiler-part of this thread:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/103745-warframe-abilityslots-modslots-modpoints-and-auras/#entry1195046

 

In short Warframes have

1 slot ONLY for Auras - It GIVES you modpoints just like now.

4 slots ONLY for your Abilities - These costs no modpoints (but could need some other pointpool or any other restrictions, such as level-requirements)

6 (maybe 8) coreslots for your other more powerful Warframe mods (Called CORE Warframe mods) - Costs modpoints and have as many ranks as they do now. They fulfill more general uses (Tanking, casting and agility)

4 extraslots for your weaker Warframe mods (Called EXTRA Warframe mods) - Also costs modpoints, but have much cheaper basecosts and only have 4 ranks (from rank 0 to 3). They fullfil more niched uses than Core-mods. The Extra-mods can ALSO be equipped in the Coreslots if you want to!

 

Which ones turn into Core and which ones become Extra are all listed in that thread's spoiler-part as well. Some borderlines are also explained and discussed about.

 

I guess something similar to that could be done for weapons?

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My point was that this is just your opinion, I do a TON of high level and t3 content and never, ever equip Vitality. I know plenty of other people who feel the same way as I do, that it is a completely unnecessary waste of mod points and a slot. So I get to equip one more mod than anyone who feels it's necessary, that's build diversity. I don't equip it, so I get to stack continuity and constitution, or streamline and flow, etc.

 

With your set-up I still get to do what I'm doing now, only with no sacrifice, more health, and possibly a few extra unneeded mods, I'm guessing the new meta would be movement mods but who knows. I'm still going to equip everything that I can in the space allotted, adding more space just increases the over all power level. There will still be a meta that is seen as the most effective, or "required" for high level content.

 

Edit: and what about people with highly polarized frames that have dumped multiple power slots to specialize more highly. Your setup just assumes everyone wants all their powers equipped, makes them required in fact. Again, that's a loss of diversity.

I don't like to say this in a constructive argument, but your view on diversity is very very wrong.

 

First, you don't sacrifice basic stats in a RPG to gain diversity.

Second, you don't sacrifice skills(abilities) to gain diversity. In absolutely no RPG was it done that you lost a part of your core skill base for the purpose of diversity. Build specific skill exist, yes, but they're not core abilities, like these in warframe.

 

Nobody polarized their warframe to put in Retribution or Handspring, but to slap on Vitality and Vigor or even Flow/Focus/Streamline. Those are all stat improving mods. You don't build diversity by sacrificing basic stats.

Diversity is built on gameplay style. For instance, with those 6 slots, which you'd have to gain by sacrificing 1 ability slot and equipping only Redirection(only your opinion here, but I'm not disregarding it like you did mine), someone would put in rush,marathon,quick rest,constitution,continuity and streamline. Neither of those increases your survivability, but still creates a form of gameplay style, probably a quick mover that requires certain buff abilities to last longer. Nukers would equip a completely different build.

Desire 1 more basic stat, as in warframe lifespan, and you're ruining that build and breaking diversity in play style.

 

Actually you're acting just like DE when it comes to creating game difficulty. They're modifying basic stats because that's the easiest way to simulate difficulty. You're using those stats as an argument in diversity. No, you don't base diversity on survivability if survivability is required in later stages.

 

 

I have made a somewhat similar suggestions although, only proposed for Warframes (not weapons) although quite thoroughly imo.

 

Look in the spoiler-part of this thread:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/103745-warframe-abilityslots-modslots-modpoints-and-auras/#entry1195046

 

In short Warframes have

1 slot ONLY for Auras - It GIVES you modpoints just like now.

4 slots ONLY for your Abilities - These costs no modpoints (but could need some other pointpool or any other restrictions, such as level-requirements)

6 (maybe 8) coreslots for your other more powerful Warframe mods (Called CORE Warframe mods) - Costs modpoints and have as many ranks as they do now. They fulfill more general uses (Tanking, casting and agility)

4 extraslots for your weaker Warframe mods (Called EXTRA Warframe mods) - Also costs modpoints, but have much cheaper basecosts and only have 4 ranks (from rank 0 to 3). They fullfil more niched uses than Core-mods. The Extra-mods can ALSO be equipped in the Coreslots if you want to!

 

Which ones turn into Core and which ones become Extra are all listed in that thread's spoiler-part as well. Some borderlines are also explained and discussed about.

 

I guess something similar to that could be done for weapons?

 

You're on to something here, but I'd rather stick to these stat mod slots as they represent a form of advancement in the game.

Edited by DeadlyNerd
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The problem is that then you are determining what people require. I for instance haven't used vitality since I was a total noob, have never seen a point in anything but Redirection, or Redirection + Vigor for even more shields on frames that come with two defensive polarities. I have clan mates who feel the same way, or use only Vigor, even one that doesn't use any.

 

We all get benefits and downsides based on these choices, but your system would basically take that away. Can't see how that would be increasing build diversity.

and for myself I never use redirection again and only go for vitality, I even want to keep my shield low!

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I don't like to say this in a constructive argument, but your view on diversity is very very wrong.

 

First, you don't sacrifice basic stats in a RPG to gain diversity.

Second, you don't sacrifice skills(abilities) to gain diversity. In absolutely no RPG was it done that you lost a part of your core skill base for the purpose of diversity. Build specific skill exist, yes, but they're not core abilities, like these in warframe.

 

Nobody polarized their warframe to put in Retribution or Handspring, but to slap on Vitality and Vigor or even Flow/Focus/Streamline. Those are all stat improving mods. You don't build diversity by sacrificing basic stats.

Diversity is built on gameplay style. For instance, with those 6 slots, which you'd have to gain by sacrificing 1 ability slot and equipping only Redirection(only your opinion here, but I'm not disregarding it like you did mine), someone would put in rush,marathon,quick rest,constitution,continuity and streamline. Neither of those increases your survivability, but still creates a form of gameplay style, probably a quick mover that requires certain buff abilities to last longer. Nukers would equip a completely different build.

Desire 1 more basic stat, as in warframe lifespan, and you're ruining that build and breaking diversity in play style.

 

Actually you're acting just like DE when it comes to creating game difficulty. They're modifying basic stats because that's the easiest way to simulate difficulty. You're using those stats as an argument in diversity. No, you don't base diversity on survivability if survivability is required in later stages.

 

What does your system change, other than for me to end up with skills I won't use and extra health and armor that I don't need? Right now, I'm using 6 mod slots, not counting redirection for maxed out builds. So with your system, I get back the one skill that was weak or useless enough that I didn't mind losing it, and I still use all the same mods, but now I've got extra armor and health "for free". If I've got that wrong, please correct me. The bad mods are still going to be bad. So every frame now has streamline and flow using up two of your 6 slots because everyone can use energy. Any warframe that needs more power strength will be using focus. Any that need more range will be using stretch, and that need power duration will be using continuity and constitution. If you can use all of three you've used up your six slots right there, if you can't use one of them you have one, maybe two slots free to play with. So you slap in Rush if you want to go fast, or maybe thief's wit for farming, but that's going to be it. 

 

I just really don't see how your idea greatly enhances diversity. Honestly, short of giving a separate mod pool and slots that are only usable for the mods that are inherently less useful people are still just going to use the ones that give them the most advantage for the slot.

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What does your system change, other than for me to end up with skills I won't use and extra health and armor that I don't need? Right now, I'm using 6 mod slots, not counting redirection for maxed out builds. So with your system, I get back the one skill that was weak or useless enough that I didn't mind losing it, and I still use all the same mods, but now I've got extra armor and health "for free". If I've got that wrong, please correct me. The bad mods are still going to be bad. So every frame now has streamline and flow using up two of your 6 slots because everyone can use energy. Any warframe that needs more power strength will be using focus. Any that need more range will be using stretch, and that need power duration will be using continuity and constitution. If you can use all of three you've used up your six slots right there, if you can't use one of them you have one, maybe two slots free to play with. So you slap in Rush if you want to go fast, or maybe thief's wit for farming, but that's going to be it. 

 

I just really don't see how your idea greatly enhances diversity. Honestly, short of giving a separate mod pool and slots that are only usable for the mods that are inherently less useful people are still just going to use the ones that give them the most advantage for the slot.

Kinda tedious explaining everything again so I wont. Think about how exactly would stats generate play style other than classifying frames into roles(see classify?, that's classes, not play styles) and why frames actually have different stats right at the start.

 

P.S. read the last sentence in my OP, which you obviously didn't so now I actually doubt you read the whole OP at all. I'm all for a constructive argument but when 1 side keeps repeating his argument and disregarding any counterarguments it's called trolling.

Edited by DeadlyNerd
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I see the idea and it seemingly odd to make progression a "choice" when in reality it isn't. A pistol without hornet strike or a rifle without serration will not go far, and this level of progression not available to new players until they "Magically find it one day" is also odd as you have a extremely limited progression ability until you are blessed by the RNG gods.

OP's system can use a little bit of tweaking but the basis of his idea is sound. Much of the game can be redesigned around this and future content is easier to design as well. I mean, you can argue "more survivable" vs "speed" but in reality, speed running a high level mission as a loki with NO survival mods is a joke, you will be taken down in less than half a clip from even a grineer hind rifle. Sure you can argue I could just be "sneakier" but are you really going to argue "stealthing" in this game when a rhino can stroll on through unhindered while he still has no less ability to kill things in his way?

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