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Thank you for the risks you take DE


nOmelet
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I won't lie, there were a lot of things about what was showcased of the Railjack mission that filled me with dread. Most of those dread-inducing concerns have been discussed to death by the responses in some of the other threads so I won't go over all of them again here; I only hope you take some of those concerns seriously. 

But in the midst of all the negativity, I want to take some time here to say thank you. Thank you for all of the risks that you take for the game. Sometimes it means new ideas flop, are executed poorly or not in the way you thought it would, and they make the community upset. Sometimes, though, you score a headshot, and bring a fresh new way to enjoy the game so that we get to play four games in one! I understand it was a risk that involved a lot of investment into a brand new mode that's completely different than anything you've tried, and I appreciate what you attempted to do with Railjack. 

That said, I really hope you listen to the concerns a lot of people have been posting about the content you showcased today. We care about the game and want to see it better. Some of us are really disappointed (I was one of them) but I'm hopeful that you'll be able to right the ship back around haha. 

Please don't stop taking these risks. I really think Railjack could turn into something great after some fixes people have already suggested. 

 

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Agreed. Warframe is one big risk, and that is at the end of the day a part of its identity.

The big one I've seen is 'solo'. Despite being a solo player myself, I do understand their position. At the end of the day, this is a co-op game. However, down the line we will be getting the ability to deploy the AI crews and it's likely they will be able to assist in combat.

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1 hour ago, nOmelet said:

I really hope you listen to the concerns a lot of people have been posting about the content you showcased today.

They still haven't acknowledged the plethora of posts concerning The Old Blood, so I doubt they will concerning Railjack/Empyrean/The New War either. They just dismiss them as if nothing is wrong or needs fixing and move on.  TOB has greatly shaken my faith in DE, and their lack of meaningful decisions/response has furthered that deterioration of trust. What's sad is it so many things in Warframe could be fixed in a fairly quick amount of time with minimal effort, yet make such a profound impact. Yet they and some players are okay with mediocrity. 

 

And there are many more..

I'm fine with risks, if there is a thought-out plan behind them, however with how TOB was advertised/shown on their devstream vs what we got, it feels like a fast food commercial / false advertising to be honest. DE can do better, they've proven it - and while they're partying and thinking everything is grand, you can see on the forums / reddit how thousands of players are unhappy / alarmed by how they're proceeding, and even worse ignoring us, even when giving constructive criticisms. 

 

So, we'll see - hopefully new content in the future fairs better than TOB. However, I am not hopeful.

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12 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

They still haven't acknowledged the plethora of posts concerning The Old Blood, so I doubt they will concerning Railjack/Empyrean/The New War either. They just dismiss them as if nothing is wrong or needs fixing and move on.  TOB has greatly shaken my faith in DE, and their lack of meaningful decisions/response has furthered that deterioration of trust. What's sad is it so many things in Warframe could be fixed in a fairly quick amount of time with minimal effort, yet make such a profound impact. Yet they and some players are okay with mediocrity.

And there are many more..

I'm fine with risks, if there is a thought-out plan behind them, however with how TOB was advertised/shown on their devstream vs what we got, it feels like a fast food commercial / false advertising to be honest. DE can do better, they've proven it - and while they're partying and thinking everything is grand, you can see on the forums / reddit how thousands of players are unhappy / alarmed by how they're proceeding, and even worse ignoring us, even when giving constructive criticisms. 

 

So, we'll see - hopefully new content in the future fairs better than TOB. However, I am not hopeful.

Does every change they did make since it launched not count for anything? Plus even in the devstream today they said they still have ideas for changes and that there will be more changes when they expand it to other factions.

It's far from perfect but if they were to continue adding to and changing it eventually they would be shooting themselves in the foot putting off new content. And even if it was continually worked on it would be affecting fewer and fewer players as others finish it and are just waiting for the next update.

Then at what point would the "general community" even be satisfied with the feature? We've had complaints regarding every change made to the game regardless of the scale or impact they had.

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Just now, trst said:

Does every change they did make since it launched not count for anything? Plus even in the devstream today they said they still have ideas for changes and that there will be more changes when they expand it to other factions.

It's far from perfect but if they were to continue adding to and changing it eventually they would be shooting themselves in the foot putting off new content. And even if it was continually worked on it would be affecting fewer and fewer players as others finish it and are just waiting for the next update.

Then at what point would the "general community" even be satisfied with the feature? We've had complaints regarding every change made to the game regardless of the scale or impact they had.

No, they do count for something- but

But. 

It is very, very easy for a company, especially a gaming company, to blow every ounce of goodwill they have on one hilariously bad product. Ask Bethesda. Or Bioware. 

Was TOB that bad? No, nowhere near. But it also was both not good, and is now also something they're ignoring in favor of something else- which, as any vet knows, means it's going to remain in it's current state for a while. Months at least, years more likley. 

DE used to be good for listening, but they ain't listened in a long while- and if TOB and liches are indicative of what happens when they don't, we're in for a rough couple years. 

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hace 1 hora, nOmelet dijo:

Sometimes it means new ideas flop, are executed poorly or not in the way you thought it would, and they make the community upset. Sometimes, though, you score a headshot, and bring a fresh new way to enjoy the game so that we get to play four games in one! I understand it was a risk that involved a lot of investment into a brand new mode that's completely different than anything you've tried, and I appreciate what you attempted to do with Railjack. 

Please don't stop taking these risks. I really think Railjack could turn into something great after some fixes people have already suggested. 

 

I mean, It isn't that new exactly, Archwing with an actaul ship, but I do see your point, really straight forward and actually agree on that.

Empyreon needs another year (at least) and let's hope they actaully listen this time, not like they did with the Kuva Lich System, but also don't get your hopes that high man, I did that with Arbitrations, they said It was going to be Endgame: One Life, Starting at lvl 80, Scaling Rewards, Exclusive Rewards, Enemies Scaling super fast,...after It dropped It was just an Endo farming gamemode.

You gotta love em by how they Overhype things dude.

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56 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

They still haven't acknowledged the plethora of posts concerning The Old Blood, so I doubt they will concerning Railjack/Empyrean/The New War either. They just dismiss them as if nothing is wrong or needs fixing and move on.  TOB has greatly shaken my faith in DE, and their lack of meaningful decisions/response has furthered that deterioration of trust. What's sad is it so many things in Warframe could be fixed in a fairly quick amount of time with minimal effort, yet make such a profound impact. Yet they and some players are okay with mediocrity. 

 

And there are many more..

I'm fine with risks, if there is a thought-out plan behind them, however with how TOB was advertised/shown on their devstream vs what we got, it feels like a fast food commercial / false advertising to be honest. DE can do better, they've proven it - and while they're partying and thinking everything is grand, you can see on the forums / reddit how thousands of players are unhappy / alarmed by how they're proceeding, and even worse ignoring us, even when giving constructive criticisms. 

 

So, we'll see - hopefully new content in the future fairs better than TOB. However, I am not hopeful.

At this point we may have to realize that DE has decided that the business side of the F2P model in Warframe’s lifecycle is going to directly impact game design decisions, both in terms of money and time invested in the overall quality AND in terms of the “pain avoidance” factors that will be necessary but invasive.

I’ve come to terms that negative reinforcement/pain avoidance simply brings in more money, even though I’m not in that demographic.

I monetarily rewarded DE for the entertainment experience that was the seemless blend of story, combat, power growth, and cosmetic diversification.

Those times are gone.  I either accept and tolerate what is and what I still like or I don’t.

 

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34 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

No, they do count for something- but

But. 

It is very, very easy for a company, especially a gaming company, to blow every ounce of goodwill they have on one hilariously bad product. Ask Bethesda. Or Bioware. 

Was TOB that bad? No, nowhere near. But it also was both not good, and is now also something they're ignoring in favor of something else- which, as any vet knows, means it's going to remain in it's current state for a while. Months at least, years more likley. 

DE used to be good for listening, but they ain't listened in a long while- and if TOB and liches are indicative of what happens when they don't, we're in for a rough couple years. 

Sorry but I can never take statements like this seriously "DE used to be good for listening, but they ain't listened in a long while". They did, they have, and they still do. This is a fact.

Nearly every update and change we've had between Fortuna and Old Blood alone was based on feedback and feature requests. And every change we've had to Old Blood and the melee rework thus far was all from feedback.

Do they take every ounce of feedback and put it into the game? No. Should they? I'd argue not.

 

But besides that regardless of the quality of the Lich system as it is currently there is still the fact that there are people who've already mostly/entirely finished the system and there are those who won't engage with it regardless of improvements; what do these people gain from more polish besides having the next bout of content delayed? And what about everyone who has been eagerly awaiting Emperyon since the initial reveal who already needed to wait even longer because the game needed a content update while it was still being worked on?

Plus it was already confirmed that it is slated for additional changes in the future. Yes we don't know when that is but this is at least more of a confirmation than most things we've had.

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3 hours ago, nOmelet said:

I really think Railjack could turn into something great after some fixes people have already suggested. 

this is exactly how I feel about 

Plains of Eidolon

Fortuna/Orb Vallis (still waiting on 3rd orb fight. It's just chilling out in that coolant pool.) 

ESO 

and I'm sure some people out there think Conclave could be good if it just got some TLC. At least disruption and Arbitrations are good. Though arbitration's still has some minor issues such as revives being introduced to satiate public players who didn't take time to build properly and some of the most downright worst arcanes in the entire game as "rewards". 

 

 

And specifically to Steve if he reads this. I'm not going to thank anyone for reducing the grind of lichs from " 72 days" down to 2+ hours. When it's layers upon layers of repetitive RNG, none of which is fun after the 5th lich and lich's killing us for having a stupid mod in the wrong spot. Well, I'd rather go play with a circular saw myself. 

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1 hour ago, trst said:

Does every change they did make since it launched not count for anything? Plus even in the devstream today they said they still have ideas for changes and that there will be more changes when they expand it to other factions.

How long will that be though? Other factions etc. easily a few months or even a year or more considering they have a minimum of TWO big mainline updates in the foreseeable future. That doesn't give me hope at all. I've been watching some older hell's kitchen so here's a food analogy. You wouldn't want an undercooked steak, and you know it when you see it, so does DE, they know when they've released an under-developed update and try to make it better. So you'd get upset with them giving you an undercooked steak, so why not TOB? As for 'improvements' they've been dancing around the actual improvements. So instead of re-firing (cooking) your steak, they just give you a salad and say it's all good.

1 hour ago, trst said:

It's far from perfect but if they were to continue adding to and changing it eventually they would be shooting themselves in the foot putting off new content.

That's a hyperbole if I've ever seen one. In every forum post I linked there are dozens of ideas, hell, one guy even created his own game, to show what could be done. The framework is there, and I'd argue it was more work to make it as grindy and RNG and unrewarding as it is, than if they would've just focused on the fun aspect first and fore-most, with the grind on the backburner. I'm fine with something taking time, but not when it feels like I'm slogging through chores in a game that's supposed to be fun. I don't come from work to feel like I'm working. And while it might be a difference of taste, I am very familiar with grindy games, I've gotten Insane in the Membrane in WoW (before cataclysm, when it became easier) and played thousands of hours of other grindy games, Diablo 3, Path of Exile etc. What sets The Old Blood apart from those, is the lack of fun, meaningful rewards, not to mention lore holes that litter TOB. 

1 hour ago, Paradoxity said:

No, they do count for something- but

It is very, very easy for a company, especially a gaming company, to blow every ounce of goodwill they have on one hilariously bad product. Ask Bethesda. Or Bioware. 

Was TOB that bad? No, nowhere near. But it also was both not good, and is now also something they're ignoring in favor of something else- which, as any vet knows, means it's going to remain in it's current state for a while. Months at least, years more likley. 

DE used to be good for listening, but they ain't listened in a long while- and if TOB and liches are indicative of what happens when they don't, we're in for a rough couple years. 

Exactly. I'm also looking into the future, seeing parallels with other gaming companies that used to listen, that no longer do, to their communities that went down a similar path. Then it ended up hurting the game in the long run, and in some cases, even when the game was going strong, ended up slowly killing it. A pretty good example of grind being extended and killing playerbases is GTA Online, it started off decent with the grinding, then over time rewards got diluted, the amount of grind increased. Most long-term players of GTAO have long left, it's mainly successful now due to new players and whales who buy the sharkcards. 

29 minutes ago, trst said:

Sorry but I can never take statements like this seriously "DE used to be good for listening, but they ain't listened in a long while". They did, they have, and they still do. This is a fact.

Nearly every update and change we've had between Fortuna and Old Blood alone was based on feedback and feature requests. And every change we've had to Old Blood and the melee rework thus far was all from feedback.

The issue with this is .. ugh there is a term for this.. but I can't remember it.   It's where you make an obvious leap forward or decision that might not be liked, then dial it back after backlash to act like you're listening. Obvious like EABF2 with Lootboxes or Bethesda with paid mods (before they added them back again), or Sony with the Sonic movie. It's smoke and mirrors, giving the illusion that you're listening, when in reality you don't care because as long as it doesn't hurt the wallet too bad, it doesn't matter in the long run. I'm not saying DE never listens 100% of the time, I'm saying they don't listen to the good ideas, nor do they always deal with the actual problem but the symptoms. And manytimes by just playing the game or new content for a little while, you can easily see the obvious problem, that they seem to gloss over, not just in TOB but other game modes they've added in the past or frames/weapons etc.  Another that came to mind was Hema. For no other reason it will never be changed is because "others have already done it". Bad reason.

TOB's grinding at first was horrendous, then they did the smoke and mirrors by changing the murmur count, but it didn't technically change anything. It's still a boring grind and the RNG for what is needed to play the KL system is still there. Then we have the team KL farming that went on that was removed due to "it being your nemesis, your one on one interaction with it", then allowing it to be tradable (which doesn't make sense with what they said), and adding a tiny bit of kuva so they can say 'it gives kuva!".  See what I mean about dancing around the problem? Instead of fixing it, they'd rather dance around and see what they can get away with, I think to test the waters for further grind in the future with future updates.  If players are willing to spend 80-100 hours where they used to spend 20-30, who'd pass that up in a live service system?

 

Simple fixes for TOB that keep the grind there.

#1 All rewards scale, no more 80 endo rotation rewards in lvl 100-120 rank 4-5 kuva lich zones, in this case 400-600 endo. Want me to fight something that's harder, give me rewards for it. (Cough, even if I'm over-geared still but that's balance, not the topic at hand).

#2 Either increase the charges of requiem mods to 5 (thus less relics needed and less RNG), or allow players to either select the requiem relic they're after, or set siphons to I & II w/ floods being at III & IV with a guarantee of drop, no chances. 

#3 Obviously make the lich fight more than guess work, incorporating spy missions and mobile defense to be useful for gathering murmurs would be nice. It would give players to do them at least, each spy 'terminal (ABC)' would give 5-10 murmurs, usable once per Lich. So 15-30 murmurs per spy mission, once per lich. They know so much about us, makes sense we'd be able to find out something about them.  

 

In summary, things can be made to be more fun with little effort on DE's part, fun is the aim of the game, and if you ain't having fun playing it, that isn't necessarily the fault of the player. Especially, if they were having fun before TOB came out. And with thousands of players singing the same tune of "it's broke, please fix it" - means something is obviously broken, and DE is ignoring it.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

In summary, things can be made to be more fun with little effort on DE's part, fun is the aim of the game, and if you ain't having fun playing it, that isn't necessarily the fault of the player. Especially, if they were having fun before TOB came out. And with thousands of players singing the same tune of "it's broke, please fix it" - means something is obviously broken, and DE is ignoring it.

I wouldn't call it "ignoring". DE is currently under "all hands on deck" situation to bring Empyrean out. So I understand why the lack of progress on The Old Blood feedback execution. 

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9 hours ago, trst said:

Sorry but I can never take statements like this seriously "DE used to be good for listening, but they ain't listened in a long while". They did, they have, and they still do. This is a fact.

Nearly every update and change we've had between Fortuna and Old Blood alone was based on feedback and feature requests. And every change we've had to Old Blood and the melee rework thus far was all from feedback.

Do they take every ounce of feedback and put it into the game? No. Should they? I'd argue not.

 

But besides that regardless of the quality of the Lich system as it is currently there is still the fact that there are people who've already mostly/entirely finished the system and there are those who won't engage with it regardless of improvements; what do these people gain from more polish besides having the next bout of content delayed? And what about everyone who has been eagerly awaiting Emperyon since the initial reveal who already needed to wait even longer because the game needed a content update while it was still being worked on?

Plus it was already confirmed that it is slated for additional changes in the future. Yes we don't know when that is but this is at least more of a confirmation than most things we've had.

You don't have to believe them for them to be true. I'd happily give you examples out of say, the design council- which, back in the day, was billed as a direct line of feedback and collaborative work with the team. 

I think the last open topic of discussion was sometime last month about a mod rework because Melee 3.0 broke it? And there might be ~1 or so such topics a month anymore? This, from the group that designed Nova. I can't remember the last time I saw a DE name in council chat in game, either. 

Hell, the recent devstream alone should prove they don't listen to anything they don't want to hear. "Sorry but we're not changing the instadeath Russian roulette or the absurd RNG farmfest that is liches" isn't exactly what I'd call listening. Yes, fair enough, they did make some tweaks to the system, and it is admittedly in a better place than when it initially released. Is it in a good state, though? A place where people are mostly pleased engaging with it? I'd argue that it's still very much not for a variety of reasons. 

I said it in another thread, but I'll repeat it. One of DE's biggest weaknesses- and greatest strengths- is that they don't spend much time with something past the initial tweaks till a long time after when they'll come in and do a comprehensive overhaul. This isn't new- this is a long established pattern. It works in their favor because there's always something new going on- something new to try. Using TOB as our example, we're looking at railjack within, what? six weeks? of liches being introduced. That's impressive by any standard of measure. that liches are a dumpster fire of a system won't matter nearly as much if Empyrean is great. 

Of course, if it's a half-baked underdeveloped mess because it's rushed, well... 

And of course there's players that are never going to engage with liches- just as there are players (Self included) that waited to see what was up with them. I'd wager this attitude of "Sorry, not sorry, nothing's changing cos it's all hands on deck for the next thing" isn't going to convince any of them to give the system a chance, either.  It certainly hasn't with me. I can wait for the "Additional changes in the future"... and I hope they're on a shorter timescale than the changes to archwing. 

 

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On 2019-12-06 at 5:36 PM, nOmelet said:

But in the midst of all the negativity, I want to take some time here to say thank you. Thank you for all of the risks that you take for the game. Sometimes it means new ideas flop, are executed poorly or not in the way you thought it would, and they make the community upset. Sometimes, though, you score a headshot, and bring a fresh new way to enjoy the game so that we get to play four games in one! I understand it was a risk that involved a lot of investment into a brand new mode that's completely different than anything you've tried, and I appreciate what you attempted to do with Railjack. 

That said, I really hope you listen to the concerns a lot of people have been posting about the content you showcased today. We care about the game and want to see it better. Some of us are really disappointed (I was one of them) but I'm hopeful that you'll be able to right the ship back around haha. 

Please don't stop taking these risks. I really think Railjack could turn into something great after some fixes people have already suggested. 

 

I like this thread, and I do have my share of being staunchly critical of the game at times , but I just want to extend my thanks too despite of it. 

Obviously you guys are seeing complaints left and right, counting the numerous hotfixes you released so far. But regardless of the feedback, in case you managed to see this, there are players like me, who just quietly enjoy your game, contented with your work. Not everyone here may not be as vocal, but know that the risks you take to advance the evolution of this game are deeply appreciated. Just soldier on regardless of the usual "you give them a hand, they will take your whole arm" crowd common to any game undergoing a transitory phase.

Idk if any toes have been stepped over, but this is just a simple genuine little pat on the back of encouragement or cold bottle of water to hand over to DE on a seemingly testy marathon they are trying to do until Empyrean hits.  Just excited to see what Empyrean brings right now.

 

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Honestly I think DE's main problem right now is that they are trying to do too much at the same time.

They would iron out the nemesis system... Too bad they have promised too much, are running behind schedule, and have:

  • Railjack to work on (and full space combat mode with it's own progression, damage types, missions, resources etc. is pretty freaking difficult to do),
  • New War,
  • Duviri,
  • next Prime,
  • next regular frame,
  • new delux skins,
  • new Nightwave,
  • and god knows what else that they are working on but not sharing it yet...

 

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1 hour ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

Honestly I think DE's main problem right now is that they are trying to do too much at the same time.

They would iron out the nemesis system... Too bad they have promised too much, are running behind schedule, and have:

  • Railjack to work on (and full space combat mode with it's own progression, damage types, missions, resources etc. is pretty freaking difficult to do),
  • New War,
  • Duviri,
  • next Prime,
  • next regular frame,
  • new delux skins,
  • new Nightwave,
  • and god knows what else that they are working on but not sharing it yet...

 

I agree, DE may actually be a victim of their own ambitions. Anyone can see it coming, and because of the lingering question of where do all these piecemeal releases amount to? I  think, they are easily dismissed as subpar because we still cannot see, "hopefully,"  the bigger picture.

Patience is a hot commodity these days especially when swift changes don't apply to those who are stubborn to take the plunge with DE. I even sometimes wonder if DE deserves this community enough for them to continue being this dedicated so I just blindly extend my "Thanks anyway!. " for keeping this game chugging along.

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2 hours ago, Alpha_Tango said:

I agree, DE may actually be a victim of their own ambitions. Anyone can see it coming, and because of the lingering question of where do all these piecemeal releases amount to? I  think, they are easily dismissed as subpar because we still cannot see, "hopefully,"  the bigger picture.

Patience is a hot commodity these days especially when swift changes don't apply to those who are stubborn to take the plunge with DE. I even sometimes wonder if DE deserves this community enough for them to continue being this dedicated so I just blindly extend my "Thanks anyway!. " for keeping this game chugging along.

There is blind cynicism, but there is also being naive. Sure, DE has plans for the future, what a surprise. The issue at hand is, what level of quality are you willing to accept before it is passable to move onto other content? Many players here on the forums don't find The Old Blood to be passable, in the slightest, and are upset (rightfully so) that DE would add this update, clearly nowhere near finished, then after a few band-aids thrown on it, walk away with a "I O U" sticky note saying "Will fix l8r brb". 

Especially when other game modes, not even including PvP, have been left behind for years before getting proper attention. And the fact that DE finds this acceptable, is unacceptable. In other live service games I've played, things have been fixed in a timely manner, probably the best example being Path of Exile. While not all of their leagues are released on par, they're definitely polished enough by the end of the league (2 1/2 to 3 months) and they get consistent large updates every 12-13 weeks. Whereas Warframe does not, AND we get the delays AND we get to deal with bugs and unpolished mess in the mean time. But because we at least get updates *looks at Team Fortress 2 Then I guess it's okay?

No. It isn't.

DE is spreading themselves too thin and not taking the time to properly handle updates and content, be it polishing it better, ironing bugs out, whatever the case maybe. Having your playerbase wallow through the muck to find a small glimmer of hope, and sit on that little pinnacle, for weeks/months while you move on to other things, that isn't fun nor respecting the players or warframe itself.

 

All game developers work hard, some more than others, it's the Quality that matters over Quantity. Everyone makes mistakes, what separates the good from the bad is those who will own their mistakes, and fix them.  So far, with The Old Blood, DE hasn't fixed anything, only band-aids on bullet wounds. You can't put the square peg in the round hole, then walk away and go "eh it's fine", but DE are doing just that, and you're condoning it. 

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@Tinklzs

Judging by your past posts, by this time, I don't think no amount of argument will sway you from thinking otherwise. So I'll just say I respect your opinion and just share my idea of what a Nemesis should stand for in TOB.

Simply put, it is exactly what they are doing to the community now, perhaps too well. They are supposed to be always a step ahead of you, unfair, brutal, irritating and always gets the last laugh (even when you beat them but guessed the mods wrong). It is for those reasons that I enjoy beating them whenever I have I a chance. Frankly, i don't see anything wrong with it, You kill a larvling, prepare to gamble against them. The rules are simple and clear, you are betting your time against RNG, the "boring" grind, for weapons & good rolls or for ephemeras.  If you really hate the whole process and can only stand so much, just go trade for them then.

But i guess you know those options already and will never accept them so there is no point contesting about it. Also, I am not sure if the "many players" still upset you mentioned represent anything at all judging by how miniscule the threads are and seeing the same posters speaking the same views across most of them. I do understand some of the complaints, but they always fall under the "not my cup of tea" gameplay concerns rather than major game breaking ones. Lastly, I really don't dwell too much on pointing out the black dot on a white paper so I'll just stand by my "Thank yous' " and stay contented, patiently waiting for any developments when DE is ready. What can I say, I am privileged enough to just play this game, mostly for free, after all these years, screw ups and all. So forgive me if I see fit to just cut them some slack if I want to.

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On 2019-12-06 at 10:50 PM, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

the business side of the F2P model in Warframe’s lifecycle is going to directly impact game design decisions

Yep.

Bitter pill:
The only way to make and sustain this game is by being a viable and profitable business.
If we want them working long nights on Halloween to bug fix, they've got to pay overtime.
If they don't have a plan to keep that profitable, then we lose Warframe forever.
That's just how it do.

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16 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

Yep.

Bitter pill:
The only way to make and sustain this game is by being a viable and profitable business.
If we want them working long nights on Halloween to bug fix, they've got to pay overtime.
If they don't have a plan to keep that profitable, then we lose Warframe forever.
That's just how it do.

I don’t envy Sheldon.

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39 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I don’t envy Sheldon.

I'm not sure what the staff member's specific jobs are.. but man, I don't particularly envy any of them.

Could you imagine..
Work at DE.
Have the coolest ideas in the universe.
Pitch them directly to the board.
"This and this are technically impossible,
this part is fiscally impossible,
that is already mothballed for a project 2.5 years from now,
and the other thing we tried twice."
"Here's your NDA, thank you, head back to work. Next order of business."

There are limitations and restrictions there that they have to roll with,
that would break our hearts to know, flat out can't be done at least for now,
and they themselves might be incredibly frustrated about.

They've got families at home, comics to read, and good canadian beer to spill on keyboards.
Their job can be Widly tedious, thankless, relentless, and heartbreakingly disappointing when they can't deliver ours or their dreams for whatever reason.
I'd like very much for them to be able to take it at a pace that makes sense to them;
for them to feel appreciated and not discouraged, has a small but positive impact on the longevity and quality of work.
If they don't have time to dream and be happy or passionate about their work, then where is this game going to come from?

For users in the forum here, it may effect their morale and disposition each time they feel they weren't heard.
I have to imagine it's like that for DE to say, "I am really proud of how this feels! Let's see what they think,"
to get a giant nose-thumbing "BLEEEGh." as a response from a few thousand people, over a series of weeks or years.
So many of us, perhaps myself included, would have So many holes in their walls...
"I spent 400 hours on this thing, there's technical restrictions out of my depts control,
and I have 40 new messages about what a terrible person I am for trying within the last 5 minutes."
Great game or not, that is rough.

The pace of our collective ambition is enough to swallow them whole.
It's by some of the toughest decisions they have to make, that it doesn't.

If the game is never perfect, at least I'd like for them to have a comfortable time making it more perfect.

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43 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

I'm not sure what the staff member's specific jobs are.. but man, I don't particularly envy any of them.

Could you imagine..
Work at DE.
Have the coolest ideas in the universe.
Pitch them directly to the board.
"This and this are technically impossible,
this part is fiscally impossible,
that is already mothballed for a project 2.5 years from now,
and the other thing we tried twice."
"Here's your NDA, thank you, head back to work. Next order of business."

There are limitations and restrictions there that they have to roll with,
that would break our hearts to know, flat out can't be done at least for now,
and they themselves might be incredibly frustrated about.

They've got families at home, comics to read, and good canadian beer to spill on keyboards.
Their job can be Widly tedious, thankless, relentless, and heartbreakingly disappointing when they can't deliver ours or their dreams for whatever reason.
I'd like very much for them to be able to take it at a pace that makes sense to them;
for them to feel appreciated and not discouraged, has a small but positive impact on the longevity and quality of work.
If they don't have time to dream and be happy or passionate about their work, then where is this game going to come from?

For users in the forum here, it may effect their morale and disposition each time they feel they weren't heard.
I have to imagine it's like that for DE to say, "I am really proud of how this feels! Let's see what they think,"
to get a giant nose-thumbing "BLEEEGh." as a response from a few thousand people, over a series of weeks or years.
So many of us, perhaps myself included, would have So many holes in their walls...
"I spent 400 hours on this thing, there's technical restrictions out of my depts control,
and I have 40 new messages about what a terrible person I am for trying within the last 5 minutes."
Great game or not, that is rough.

The pace of our collective ambition is enough to swallow them whole.
It's by some of the toughest decisions they have to make, that it doesn't.

If the game is never perfect, at least I'd like for them to have a comfortable time making it more perfect.

While I understand the perspective being shown here, I don't think this fits DE, perhaps for their future projects, but not certainly for what they're presented so far.

I've worked on mods in the past, and before anyone says anything about it, yes technically mods are different than a fully fledged game. However, each update could be considered a mod, depending on what you define a mod to be, from graphics changes, new worlds, layouts, tilesets what have you. 

Anyways, I've worked on mods for other games in the 3500-6000 hour range for three titles. Fallout New Vegas 850 hrs, Mount and Blade Warband 4500-5000 hrs and Fallout 4 200-400 hrs.  And we had feedback on our 'projects', and were able to deliver with limited assets and tools provided. Warband doesn't even have official tools offered, we had to work with tools that the community created and we added onto them so we could perform what we wanted.  The Old Blood has no 'technicalities' that prevent it from being better, just a different mindset that DE has for Warframe than what the community did. When you're community, at large, is going one direction - within reason - you should be too. In The Old Bloods case, DE was dancing to their own beat, not the one that they shown beforehand, so it's DE's fault that they're getting the backlash, not ours. I have no sympathy for them when they advertised one thing, and produced another.

If it's time issues, they can obviously delay it and give reasons without spoilers, like they did with New War. That's fine, anyone with a brain knows that not everything is perfect and things take time. However, they advertised TOB as one thing, produced it as another, then have the nerve to say 'everything is fine' and 'we'll fix it later' when it could be fixed NOW with little issue. And if for some reason it's a big issue, then they should've done it the way they shown it beforehand. A real shame that DE didn't release TOB in a better state, and further upsetting how some players will accept any quality just because they like a company. 

For the record, I don't hate DE, I just expect better. When the company isn't keeping their standards up to par it's the job of the patrons to do so, and if the patrons don't, in my eyes that means they don't care about the product either.  I give constructive criticisms for DE on Warframe in hopes they look at it and improve on what they have, rather than just abandoning it, like they have in the past with other projects/content. DE can do better, it's our job to tell them that and keep them to that standard. Otherwise we get companies like Bethesda with FO76 or Rockstar with RDR2's PC Launch. 

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5 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

upsetting how some players will accept any quality just because they like a company.

All fair points.

We can't know what made them change course when they did.
The problematic delays may also come after the trailers.
It could also be that they goofed up something big, like a bunch of dinguses.

You ever try to make it on time and a tire blows out?

Why would they set out to make a deliberately and obviously bad decision by so many people's standards?
More likely something blew up, then them being intentionally wreckless.
They'd stand to make a lot more money from being able to hand delivery everything we asked for, if they could.

So what do we do with that possibility?
Rub their noses in it every time without knowing for certain the root cause?
Just so we can say we were right, we're better at this then they are.
Where does that get us, or them?
Might just beat them out of the spirit to release the free game that's been their neat little passion project for the last decade.
Are we entitled to reprimand them for an optional service with no entrance fee?

We're all entirely welcome to suggest how we'd rather things to go, and it's in their best interest to be able to deliver that where they can.
I also hope they take our suggestions seriously, and heed our disinterests respectfully.
I hope bugs are fixed in timely and effective manors.
Demanding they fight on all fronts with concise precision every time might be too much to ask.

Perhaps it's more just about the nuance.
Like, "I respect that these things take time, and I hope to see these changes,"
rather than, "I could do your job better than you, people who disagree are pests, and *cracks towel* GO TEAM."

 

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1 hour ago, kapn655321 said:

We can't know what made them change course when they did.
The problematic delays may also come after the trailers.
It could also be that they goofed up something big, like a bunch of dinguses.

You ever try to make it on time and a tire blows out?

Why would they set out to make a deliberately and obviously bad decision by so many people's standards?
More likely something blew up, then them being intentionally wreckless.
They'd stand to make a lot more money from being able to hand delivery everything we asked for, if they could.

Normally when a tire blows out I explain that a tire blew out and all is good.  DE blew a tire then are blaming the community that their clock is off. If DE made mistakes or something went awry then say so, make an effort to improve it and move on accordingly. With TOB, there are obvious points where it's just there to waste your time (in a not so friendly or entertaining manner) that could easily be improved on. While still retaining some grind without losing any fun (would actually add fun if we didn't have so many layers of RNG). Hard to 'goof' up something when it's an obvious choice, RNG to kill time or fun.  DE made small adjustments with their hotfixes regarding TOB, but it didn't fix the core problems, lack of fun, RNG out the butt and lack of long term rewards. Once you get all the weapons - then what? Ephermas? Sure, sure, not everyone is going to get all the weapons in a 3 month timeframe, some got in as little as 3 weeks. Just feels half-baked, adding endo/actual kuva rewards (150 kuva random chance isn't a reward) etc. would be a good start, and VERY simple to implement. Scaling rewards so you get level 100-120 loot vs lvl 15 loot (aka 80 endo rewards fighting lvl 120s, when you should be getting 400-600). That would be a great incentive to continue TOB content afterwards. Again, a simple fix. Which I've already stated these ideas before.

 

1 hour ago, kapn655321 said:

Why would they set out to make a deliberately and obviously bad decision by so many people's standards?

That's a question to ask Rockstar/Bethesda/EA/Activision Blizzard, they make those decisions bi-weekly and are still somehow afloat. It wouldn't surprise me if DE wanted to pad out the content (stretch it out) so it takes longer, so they don't have to hear "content drought" or "where's my updates? Is New War done yet?" etc. It does look bad on them when players do that. And with the idea of it being a grinding game, some players would defend that move, as some have. 

1 hour ago, kapn655321 said:

Are we entitled to reprimand them for an optional service with no entrance fee?

I'm going to skip down then go back up, because this line here bothers me. 

Yes, we are entitled to. just like DE is entitled to ignore us. We. Are. The. Consumer. I don't believe with the slogan "the customer is always right" because they most certainly are not. However, it doesn't hurt to listen to them, even if it goes in one ear and out the other. If no one is "qualified" to give constructive criticisms because it's a F2P game, then who is?

1 hour ago, kapn655321 said:

So what do we do with that possibility?
Rub their noses in it every time without knowing for certain the root cause?
Just so we can say we were right, we're better at this then they are.
Where does that get us, or them?

And back up we go. We remind them the mistake(s) they made and give them ideas on how to fix it. Some can be 'out there' ideas, where they need to create assets. I prefer recycling ideas, where we can take what is already there and make it better with things that we have, then improve on it later with new assets down the line when more time is available. That way, it's sufficient for now, with the hope (because they actually did something) that they will improve on it down the line, instead of abandoning it.   I get on DE because I know they can do better, I've seen it. And I mentioned my modding experience to show I know what they're going through, in other words, I'm suggesting to them what I would do in their shoes with the assets/resources they have on hand.  And by giving them those ideas "where does that get us or them?", it gets a better final product out there, with a good label/brand on it created by a hardworking team that cares.  With TOB, I can't tell who made it, because it felt so unlike DE- distant, uncaring, cold. It didn't feel like their past works where you could feel the passion. TOB was just reused mechanics and assets, T5 relics, running same missions just higher levels without increasing the reward, the journey isn't fun, you aren't doing the missions for the missions, but to chase the only 'new' content, which is technically a reskin of The Wolf, somehow less fun. The journey is tedious and boring, the destination is so short lived before you do it all again, with the chance of getting a previous 'reward'. 

1 hour ago, kapn655321 said:

"I respect that these things take time, and I hope to see these changes,"

While I understand this line, with how DE has already announced how they're moving on to further projects, leaving TOB in a semi-RAW state, abandoning it for at least 6 months to a few years, that isn't an acceptable line of thinking at this point and time. That's a line of thinking I'd give for Railjack/Empyrean/New War. We're past the point that this line would be appropriate for, concerning The Old Blood. 

1 hour ago, kapn655321 said:

"I could do your job better than you, people who disagree are pests, and *cracks towel* GO TEAM."

Is not what I said at all.  I wouldn't mind doing the job and getting insight into what they're working on, but more importantly, their thought process with how they view Warframe at it's core, and how they want to take that further and branch out into other things. But I never said I could do it better than them, I simply pointed out what others did "hey something's wrong here" and gave ideas using assets they already have in-game to make it better as a bandage until they can properly improve it (if necessary).

I actually like it when people disagree, assuming they're being constructive and give a reason why they disagree, with a counter as to what they think is more suited for the task. If they just disagree because "I'm a pest who should be thankful I have the privilege to play this game and for free" then those people I do dislike, because they don't add anything to the discussion. They just exist to find those that agree with them to feel right, rather than contribute anything meaningful. 

 

I just think DE dropped the ball with TOB, I played Shadow of Mordor for hundreds of hours and enjoyed it, and still play it from time to time because the system was fun. DE took that system, stripped all what made it fun and unique, and then put grind with RNG layers on it to make it take longer to accomplish. But in doing so, made it more of a chore than something to be fun and entertaining. I'm disappointed that DE doesn't readily see these issues, because quite a few players do, and the handful of friends I have that still play won't touch TOB, because it turns Warframe from a power fantasy fun experience, into an unpaid job. And when you have players taking looong breaks due to updates like this, that says something, and sadly DE aren't listening.

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5 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

pad out the content (stretch it out) so it takes longer, so they don't have to hear "content drought" or "where's my updates?

1 hour ago, Tinklzs said:

When you're community, at large, is going one direction - within reason - you should be too.

Ouroboros

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