New player railjack and Empyrean just seems like Archwing to me after this devstream

[Firetempest]

22 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

But how is that different from what we have now?

I, personally imagine some of those POI probably will be Lich quality captains with prerequisites to complete before you can KO them in the mission but I am still missing what makes this fundamentally different from Archwing or Sharkwing.

I expected we would be building a railjack, exploring new systems while fighting along the way, and setting up relays to get us to Tau.

Like I said, if I am missing something let me know.

This is the first iteration. Only grineer. We aren't flying off to Tau any time soon. The war is here in Origin. 

But if having a floating tile base that shoots down or explores other floating tiles with 4 people not 'racing to an exit' but with distinct jobs and responsibilities is archwing. It's exactly like archwing.

[Rakosta_Kai]

9 minutes ago, Aadi880 said:

Lore wise, the railjack is an interceptor. I don't think interceptors have the capability to construct relays, besides, that is not the job of a relay to get to Tau. Its the job of a Solar Rail.

Railjack is a long range interceptor, having the ability to get around the origin system. However, according to Cy, there is no evidence that it can jump to beyond other systems. Cy's last mission does not specify whether or not the death of his crew was in Tau, or was it from anywhere else either.

There is also a heliosphere to explore, assuming it comes in with the upcoming update, which many do doubt.

However, I'd rather not make assumptions. The update isn't out yet and what we saw was only a single exterminate mission that had 2 objectives. It would not be safe to assume what's it like before we get our hands on it.

I take it with a grain of salt though.

I think you just answered my question...

So Empyrean is basically Archwing 2.0.

I do believe I got caught by the hype-beast.

[Rakosta_Kai]

3 minutes ago, Firetempest said:

But if having a floating tile base that shoots down or explores other floating tiles with 4 people not 'racing to an exit' but with distinct jobs and responsibilities is archwing. It's exactly like archwing.

Technically, that would be a pretty close description for the current Archwing interception.

The real difference being that any of them can cause the entire mission to fail regardless of what the other members do.

It's an interesting premise...I just expected more.

That's my bad.

[Lord-Childeric]

The level of bullS#&$ery we have to go on the forum since the last dev stream is 50% hilarious 50% sad... overeaction everywhere and trashtalk on something not even out, that showed 10% of its content, in 45min-1hour of exposition stream, with no finished balance repass etc etc

 

(Not to mention the numerous 'veteran players' who just want to rage comment about DE work (which I would never qualifiate as perfect oc), when at the same time they pridely say they barely play warframe anymore and just log once in a while because game is 'trash' --> I laugh hell hard everytime)

Edited December 7, 2019 by Lord-Childeric
Typo

[Otaiken]

4 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Technically, that would be a pretty close description for the current Archwing interception.

The real difference being that any of them can cause the entire mission to fail regardless of what the other members do.

It's an interesting premise...I just expected more.

That's my bad.

You're dismissing any differences (completely different progression and maps for example) down to the "They're both lobby-based systems with a set objective".

Which is true. But if you're going down that path then archwing is very similar to Left 4 Dead because it's 4-player lobby-based gameplay with set objective.

Edited December 7, 2019 by LocoWithGun

[Nesodos]

10 minutes ago, Fl_3 said:

I'm not against team play, most of the games I play require some kind of coordination, but Warframe isn't one of them, 99% of the game is geared towards solo content, even the Eidolons, Exploiter, Profit Taker and all the world bosses can be played and beaten solo

If Co-op is such a huge part of Warframe why is this? Why has team play been pushed back so much for the solo player experience?

Just think how much more engaging it would be if the game truly was co-op, when you needed people for more than there ability to help you open a door that solo you can open yourself when playing solo. As players we have come to expect certain things of Warframe, and the ability to solo everything single damned thing seems to be one of them.

You have to expect people to be unhappy when they cater to the co-op minority.

Why minority? because it was the lack of interest in them that got raids removed from the game.

Raids were removed because they were bugged beyond repair and only a selected few actually played them due to difficulty (both enemy and coordination wise)
Btw without actual data from DE itself its nothing more than a blatant assumption that coop is in the minority.

Also just because you can beat something solo doesn't mean its balanced around solo play. (like eidolon content before power creep kicked in)
That also shows when farming because a full squad generates a lot more enemies and resources per mission than solo play.

[Firetempest]

4 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Technically, that would be a pretty close description for the current Archwing interception.

And every fps ever made can be boiled down to a walking simulator where you had to click on things before they clicked you and sometimes open doors.

There are fundamental differences in player urgency, progression and the steps to accomplish them.

[Otaiken]

As an aside. If you're a veteran with 1k+ hours in the game and are expecting an update to bring back that spark you first felt when you started to play the game. Give it up. It's NEVER going to happen. No matter what DE does Warframe will still have the Warframe DNA and will never feel entirely new again.

I wish I could feel the same way I felt like when I just started playing Demon Souls back in the day. But it's not gonna happen. And this applies to the entire genre of souls-likes. I still love them but that initial spark is not ever coming back, it's all too familiar to me now.

[CuChulainnWD]

2 minutes ago, LocoWithGun said:

As an aside. If you're a veteran with 1k+ hours in the game and are expecting an update to bring back that spark you first felt when you started to play the game. Give it up. It's NEVER going to happen. No matter what DE does Warframe will still have the Warframe DNA and will never feel entirely new again.

I wish I could feel the same way I felt like when I just started playing Demon Souls back in the day. But it's not gonna happen. And this applies to the entire genre of souls-likes. I still love them but that initial spark is not ever coming back, it's all too familiar to me now.

Except for the fact you are wrong. DE does change things up enough that the game does feel fresh and new for a time. It's getting them to make something that is enjoyably replayable that is the problem. The Old Blood had that potential, but as usual, DE decided to go the half ass root yet again and has left it on the back burner to simmer for more years to come. Well done DE.

[Kaizal]

10 minutes ago, LocoWithGun said:

As an aside. If you're a veteran with 1k+ hours in the game and are expecting an update to bring back that spark you first felt when you started to play the game. Give it up. It's NEVER going to happen. No matter what DE does Warframe will still have the Warframe DNA and will never feel entirely new again.

I wish I could feel the same way I felt like when I just started playing Demon Souls back in the day. But it's not gonna happen. And this applies to the entire genre of souls-likes. I still love them but that initial spark is not ever coming back, it's all too familiar to me now.

I don't think that's necessarily true for everyone(it might be for you). But I remember feeling the spark 3 times, first when I started out the game, the other time with the second dream, and the last one with lunaro(YES lunaro, I love that game mode, shame there aren't servers supporting it).

[Duskham]

You REALLY think it is just like archwing or are just trolling? like, it doesnt even look like a question, you believe on it and just trashed everyone arguments... Archwings missions are not high co-op based, you dont have specific roles (that can be upgrade, the intrisincs), you cant just go from ground combat to space combat at will, archwing doest have specific damage types (like plasma, ballistic, ionic ob railjacks), doest have specifics resources with long term utility, the mission objectives on railjack missions will be random generated based on the tileset and POI on said tilesets... plus a much more, and railjack that they showed and we are getting is the first iteration of a much bigger project that will yet have to get the other factions, more objectives, new systems and who knows what more? 

Edited December 7, 2019 by Duskham

[CuChulainnWD]

1 minute ago, Kaizal said:

I don't think that's necessarily true for everyone(it might be for you). But I remember feeling the spark 3 times, first when I started out the game, the other time with the second dream, and the last one with lunaro(YES lunaro, I love that game mode, shame there aren't servers supporting it).

Do you see the irony in your statement? If may not be necessarily true for you either, but it is true for others. I have had several sparks of wonder from playing Warframe, the last one was the Old Blood, until DE did two things to quash it. 1) Failing to address any of our feed back that would make the game live up to its potential, and 2) There trade system which is essentially a slave safari trade.

[CuChulainnWD]

2 minutes ago, Duskham said:

You REALLY think it is just like archwing or are just trolling? like, it doesnt even look like a question, you believe on it and just trashed everyone arguments... Archwings missions are not high co-op based, you dont have specific roles (that can be upgrade, the intrisincs), you cant just go from ground combat to space combat at will, archwing doest have specific damage types (like plasma, ballistic, ionic ob railjacks), doest have specifics resources with long term utility, the mission objectives on railjack missions will be random generated based on the tileset and POI on said tilesets... plus a much more, and railjack that they showed and we are getting is the first iteration of a much bigger project that will yet have to get the other factions, more objectives, new systems and who knows what more? 

What you may fail to realise is the skeleton from which the meat on whose bones Railjack is based on IS Archwing. The ship moves like an Archwing, and a number of other Archwing core features. Everything else you mention is dressing on the skeleton that is Archwing.  I watched Steve when he proposed space combat over 2 years ago on his Sunday streams....

[BiancaRoughfin]

32 minutes ago, Fl_3 said:

A quote from last nights Dev Stream.

"All you need is an Archwing and you can join in Railjack"

Not for new players you say, so why is the only requirement one of the earliest missions your given in the game?

Just because a new player can get an archwing and join a squad that owns a Railjack, doesnt mean the game mode is designed for them. It will require proper modding of the player's archwings and archguns along with their frames and is not something someone with a week or maybe even a month of game will get into easily.

[Otaiken]

3 minutes ago, Kaizal said:

I don't think that's necessarily true for everyone(it might be for you). But I remember feeling the spark 3 times, first when I started out the game, the other time with the second dream, and the last one with lunaro(YES lunaro, I love that game mode, shame there aren't servers supporting it).

The point at which it happens is different for everyone. Some may need 1k hours, 2k, whatever. But it's inevitable.

And if you have some tips how un-souls myself I'm quite desperate for suggestions. While Sekiro was a decent departure it very much wasn't enough.

[Duskham]

6 minutes ago, CuChulainnWD said:

What you may fail to realise is the skeleton from which the meat on whose bones Railjack is based on IS Archwing. The ship moves like an Archwing, and a number of other Archwing core features. Everything else you mention is dressing on the skeleton that is Archwing.  I watched Steve when he proposed space combat over 2 years ago on his Sunday streams....

Yeaaaah... because they 2 are in the same game, engine and on space... and that's it? they have radically different gameplays, objectives, experiences (and co-op levels) and player needed skills, if you fail to realize something that obvious you are just blinded by hate. The gamemode doesnt look perfect but is exactly what they promised and have the potential to get a lot of updates and content too

Edited December 7, 2019 by Duskham

[CuChulainnWD]

14 minutes ago, Duskham said:

Yeaaaah... because they 2 are in the same game, engine and on space... and that's it? they have radically different gameplays, objectives, experiences (and co-op levels) and player needed skills, if you fail to realize something that obvious you are just blinded by hate. The gamemode doesnt look perfect but is exactly what they promised and have the potential to get a lot of updates and content too

I would appreciate it if you did not project your thoughts and feelings onto me mate. I have no "Hate" I merely pointed out where the OP has indicated that Railjack has a very Archwing like feel to it. He is not wrong. Is that bad or good? We shall see. Take a breather and cool off. DE has made MANY promises in the past, and have often failed to deliver. I am not saying Railjack will be any better or different. That will be on DE to deliver when the time comes.

Edited December 7, 2019 by CuChulainnWD

[Fl_3]

30 minutes ago, Nesodos said:

Raids were removed because they were bugged beyond repair and only a selected few actually played them due to difficulty (both enemy and coordination wise)
Btw without actual data from DE itself its nothing more than a blatant assumption that coop is in the minority.

Also just because you can beat something solo doesn't mean its balanced around solo play. (like eidolon content before power creep kicked in)
That also shows when farming because a full squad generates a lot more enemies and resources per mission than solo play.

So why is solo play even a thing? Why not make the whole game co-op only?

Why did the chat of last nights Dev stream become a stream of "F"'s when co-op only was announced? Why can I go and solo a Tridalon? Why can I solo Profit Taker? Why can my weapons red crit for hundreds of millions of damage when nothing that exists in the game needs anything close to that to kill it and has to be gated by invincibility phases to stretch the fights out?

If this is a co-op game at all, why do we have the ability to make ourselves so powerful that the difficulty of the game becomes joke?

Why doesn't this game give us anything that is so challenging as to require us to actually team up and play together?

Last night [DE]Sheldon dropped the bombshell that even though Railjack is co-op only he plays it solo.

So, even this amazing new yet to be released co-op only game mode can be played and won solo!

Go rewatch the dev stream and it's right there.

 

17 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Just because a new player can get an archwing and join a squad that owns a Railjack, doesnt mean the game mode is designed for them. It will require proper modding of the player's archwings and archguns along with their frames and is not something someone with a week or maybe even a month of game will get into easily.

I'm sorry, but your wrong, if it was only supposed to be played by "veteran" players only it would be gated in such a way that new players wouldn't be able to join, like say, Arbitrations that require you to have completed every node in the game (a requirement that increases with every new node added you may notice)

This is not the case, and, as there is no kick button in squad play your going to either have to play with them or quit the mission and start again to get rid of them.

Or, you can wait until your clanmates log in and play with them, or, you could use the recruitment channel, but what if there are no "veteran" players wanting to play at that moment?

I guess you could always play solo?

 

[OniDax]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

But how is that different from what we have now?

I, personally imagine some of those POI probably will be Lich quality captains with prerequisites to complete before you can KO them in the mission but I am still missing what makes this fundamentally different from Archwing or Sharkwing.

I expected we would be building a railjack, exploring new systems while fighting along the way, and setting up relays to get us to Tau.

Like I said, if I am missing something let me know.

Tau isn't happening. Not sure why people still expect Tau to happen.

[Duskham]

15 minutes ago, CuChulainnWD said:

I would appreciate it if you did not project your thoughts and feelings onto me mate. I have no "Hate" I merely pointed out where the OP has indicated that Railjack has a very Archwing like feel to it. He is not wrong. Is that bad or good? We shall see. Take a breather and cool off. DE has made MANY promises in the past, and have often failed to deliver. I am not saying Railjack will be any better or different. That will be on DE to deliver when the time comes.

I'm not projecting anything, i just stated the obvious truth again 😄 what you pointed and what the OP wants to say makes no sense because as i said, it's the same game, same engine but the content vastly differs... saying it is like archwing is the same as saying it's the same as open world gameplay or the normal tileset gameplay just because you have a warframe, and you can bullet jump, shoot thing and interact with things, WELL obvious it is! it's the SAME game LOL but it is own gamemode with so much specifics that what OP is TRYING to say (and not ask) makes no sense at all

[CuChulainnWD]

We shall have to agree to disagree.

1 minute ago, Duskham said:

I'm not projecting anything, i just stated the obvious truth again 😄 what you pointed and what the OP wants to say makes no sense because as i said, it's the same game, same engine but the content vastly differs... saying it is like archwing is the same as saying it's the same as open world gameplay or the normal tileset gameplay just because you have a warframe, and you can bullet jump, shoot thing and interact with things, WELL obvious it is! it's the SAME game LOL but it is own gamemode with so much specifics that what OP is TRYING to say (and not ask) makes no sense at all

We shall agree to disagree then, and leave it at that.

[Duskham]

17 minutes ago, TheGildedOni said:

Tau isn't happening. Not sure why people still expect Tau to happen.

Yep, what i see is a lot of ppl projected on Empyrean what they WANTED it to to be in terms of gameplay AND lore (going to thau system and all, they NEVER said that doing a entire new planet system at launch or in short term) and not what was said in the devstreams and all (having in mind they said all the time it WAS subject to change and was all in devbuild etc), the sentients are bringing the war to the origin system, we are not going to Thau anytime soon

Edited December 7, 2019 by Duskham

[Amazerath]

2 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

What am I missing?

The interaction between Railjack and Cetus/Fortuna, but that seems to be all. And it's also not your fault since it wasn't even mentioned during the devstream and it probably won't be released until I dunno... May 2020?

I was never hyped for Empyrean. I always saw it as you're seeing it now - a neat extension for Archwing. Do I think it's going to be fun? Yes, provided DE doesn't make 4-player coordinated coop a necessity. But is this the path I wanted Warframe to follow? Definitely not. I think Duvuri is much closer to being the 'right path'. That and a metric ton of balance adjustments to the seven year old core of the game.

[Rakosta_Kai]

24 minutes ago, Duskham said:

Yeaaaah... because they 2 are in the same game, engine and on space... and that's it? they have radically different gameplays, objectives, experiences (and co-op levels) and player needed skills, if you fail to realize something that obvious you are just blinded by hate. The gamemode doesnt look perfect but is exactly what they promised and have the potential to get a lot of updates and content too

There really isn't any hate involved on my part though...

I was under the impression that railjack was merely one piece of the Empyrean update as opposed to being the whole thing.

DE does not typically release expansion sized updates like Empyrean with content that is so niche generally and there is nothing distinguishing Archwing from Empyrean to me at this point.

Archwing is, like it or not, niche.

If you liked or wanted to like Archwing or are a fan of that style of combat, you will probably love Empyrean... and if you didn't then you probably won't.

 

That said, it does wind the clock way back for Warframe in regards to things like modding and co-op and I don't think that is a bad thing. 

So, while I don't think what's been presented so far is bad, I do not see a hook to keep me doing it after 20 missions or so either.

That said, I won't have any way of making that determination until after having done those missions either.

 

This is one of those scenarios where I legit want to be wrong and hope they surprise me.

 

I will say though that in 3 pages of posts, I appreciate @Aadi880 's post most as it helped highlight where my expectations didn't mesh with DE's intent.

I expected Empyrean to house everything that Tenno mentioned as opposed to only offering its' introduction.

@LocoWithGun, 

I haven't lost my fire for the game insomuch as I am ready for some changes in scenery and how we do things day-to-day...I don't see it the way you do currently but hope to. 

I haven't written Empyrean off but don't see what all the hubbub is either.

 

[OniDax]

12 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

There really isn't any hate involved on my part though...

I was under the impression that railjack was merely one piece of the Empyrean update as opposed to being the whole thing.

DE does not typically release expansion sized updates like Empyrean with content that is so niche generally and there is nothing distinguishing Archwing from Empyrean to me at this point.

Archwing is, like it or not, niche.

If you liked or wanted to like Archwing or are a fan of that style of combat, you will probably love Empyrean... and if you didn't then you probably won't.

 

That said, it does wind the clock way back for Warframe in regards to things like modding and co-op and I don't think that is a bad thing. 

So, while I don't think what's been presented so far is bad, I do not see a hook to keep me doing it after 20 missions or so either.

That said, I won't have any way of making that determination until after having done those missions either.

 

This is one of those scenarios where I legit want to be wrong and hope they surprise me.

 

I will say though that in 3 pages of posts, I appreciate @Aadi880 's post most as it helped highlight where my expectations didn't mesh with DE's intent.

I expected Empyrean to house everything that Tenno mentioned as opposed to only offering its' introduction.

@LocoWithGun, 

I haven't lost my fire for the game insomuch as I am ready for some changes in scenery and how we do things day-to-day...I don't see it the way you do currently but hope to. 

I haven't written Empyrean off but don't see what all the hubbub is either.

 

I'd be more excited for Empyrean if it wasn't just a lite version of a Raid where some players will be stuck repairing the ship for the duration of the mission while two others fight for the captain role. If Empyrean was more like AC Black Flag or AC Odyssey where you're building your own personal crew, outfitting your personal Railjack, and then doing contracts and bounties like a space bounty hunter, capturing HVTs and recovering cargo and transporting them back to your dojo or a space port, or taking on a fleet of enemy ships with the help of other player Railjacks, I think it'd be different from Archwing and could really be Warframe on a new scale. But this really does feel like a regular Archwing mission, just with a Galleon/Obelisk, as well as the cruisers replacing the Courier ship from the Pursuit mission.

1 hour ago, LocoWithGun said:

I thought that having space combat seamlessly transition into infantry shooter combat was the ultimate dream of space sim developers. Hell, even just making space stations properly accessible on foot instead of just a menu still seems to be an issue.

WF kinda takes this from the other end by having infantry combat and then building space combat on top of that.

I don't expect it to be a proper space sim though. Game of such a scope seems to be impossible to make. Well, maybe Star Citizen will make it if it manages to come out before real space travel.

Doesn't the OG Battlefront 2 have space combat transition to infantry combat when you board ships?

Edited December 7, 2019 by TheGildedOni