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Loki "Rework"


SmokingGoldFish
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New Passive: When Decoy is destroyed Loki is granted 100% damage boost for 3 seconds

1. Decoy - Loki deploys a holographic copy of himself drawing enemy fire, being a high priority target in set radius lasting for set amount of duration and having double of lokis current health

2. Invisibility - Loki camouflages himself becoming invisible to enemies. This is now upper body animation meaning it can be casted while running.

3. Switch Teleport - Loki instantaneously swaps positions with a target, leaving a radiation proc on swapped enemy and making him a target for nearby enemies. Using Switch Teleport in combination with Decoy makes decoy reflect damage on the attackers for a set duration.

4. Disarm - Lets forth a wave of energy, disrupting the projectile weapons of enemies in range and forcing them to revert to melee combat. Disarmed units lose armor when attacking the Decoy.

Edited by SmokingGoldFish
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3 hours ago, SmokingGoldFish said:

New Passive: When Decoy is destroyed Loki is granted 100% damage boost for 3 seconds

That's not a passive, it's an aspect of his first skill.

3 hours ago, SmokingGoldFish said:

1. Decoy - Loki deploys a holographic copy of himself drawing enemy fire, being a high priority target in set radius lasting for set amount of duration and having double of lokis current health

So, instead of dying in 1 hit, Decoy dies in 2? Nice

3 hours ago, SmokingGoldFish said:

2. Invisibility - Loki camouflages himself becoming invisible to enemies. This is now upper body animation meaning it can be casted while running.

Agreed 

3 hours ago, SmokingGoldFish said:

3. Switch Teleport - Loki instantaneously swaps positions with a target, leaving a radiation proc on swapped enemy and making him a target for nearby enemies. Using Switch Teleport in combination with Decoy makes decoy reflect damage on the attackers for a set duration.

Cool

3 hours ago, SmokingGoldFish said:

4. Disarm - Lets forth a wave of energy, disrupting the projectile weapons of enemies in range and forcing them to revert to melee combat. Disarmed units lose armor when attacking the Decoy

If anything, I'd nerf the mindless spam of this (very) good skill.

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You have some interesting ideas. Here is what I would do to improve loki, tell me what you think.

 

Loki:

New Passive: Every time Loki uses his abilities on an enemy there is a 50% chance they will receive a proc radiation and radiation lasts 50% longer. (this will make sense when you read on)

 

1st ability:

·       After cast, it`s immune to damage for five seconds while absorbing damage however, the five seconds of immunity doesn’t start until it gets attacked. Depending on the damage stored it will be converted into health for more survivability.

·       Holding the ability will make the decoy mobile within a 10m radius which can be increased by range mods.

·       When shooting, enemies will be affected by an impact proc making them stagger.

·       There is a 50% chance of it to proc blast damage knocking enemies down, if this happens, enemies within a 30m radius will prioritise the decoy as a dangerous threat increasing threat levels for seven seconds. (threat levels higher than interception and defence targets)

·       It will use whatever primary or secondary weapon Loki is currently using.

 

2nd ability:

·       When you shoot your weapon at a certain point, enemies will seek out the location of the surface where the bullet hit.

·       (Synergy) An enemy you kill while invisible will give the 1st ability 40% critical chance to and 3.0 critical damage for 15 seconds.

 

3rd ability:

·       After switching with the enemy, loki will be invulnerable for three seconds.

·       Loki is always be facing the enemy he`s switches with.

·       If he teleports into a group of enemies, they will receive a knock down in a 10m radius however, this only works if you`re not invisible.

·       If you have a melee weapon equipped while doing so, enemies will take slide attack damage from melee weapon.

·       If an enemy is killed by it, Loki will receive 70% critical chance and status chance increase on weapons for 15 seconds.

·       (Synergy) If you decide to switch places with the decoy, you and the decoy will knock down enemies within a 15m radius.

 

4th ability:

·       Holding the ability will make enemies weapons explode dealing 1000 blast damage and knocking them down. This can be increased by strength mods.

·       This will deactivate infested eximus for 20 seconds.

·       (Synergy) If you use this after receiving critical and status chance from teleporting to an ally, the critical chance status chance will carry over to enemies affected by blast increasing its damage.

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Can't really say anything about the passive. Micro-Roar, I guess? You didn't mention anything about the duration scaling, so what about it? Don't really like that it's based only on 1 ability. But then again, you based the whole kit around it with the exception of 2.

1.Having Decoy scale with owners HP is pretty confusing. Why even bother with it? Even with Vitality it won't make much of a difference. On high levels one-shot is a one-shot unless you have armor/dr/invincibility. Considering your proposed synergies, it's completely useless. If you place it for the passive trigger - you want it destroyed ASAP. If you want to use 3 on it, it will become reflective making it indestructible. If you use it with 4 in mind, enemies will absolutely demolish it in 1 or 2 strikes even on mid levels, and there is no point in stripping armor from anyone weaker than that. So you will have to use the following rotation: use 4, stunning and disarming enemies so that they don't destroy the Decoy with their ranged weapons in 1 second, place the Decoy and instantly use 3 on it, so it doesn't die from 1 or 2 strikes. As a result you get the reflective decoy that removes armor. Melee attacks are kind of wonky and slow though, so I don't know how effective it will be unless it strips armor faster than corrosive procs.

2.Eh, I guess could be useful if you don't use Rolling Guard or don't want to use Disarm/Decoy or just Bullet Jump. A decent QoL change.

3 and 4 are decent. Although a lot of people will probably say that giving Loki any damage "DOESNT FIT WITH THE THEME REEEE" But I dig it, personally. If these scale with power strength there will be a reason to avoid Overextended on Loki which is good for build diversity, but can be somewhat straining on the build overall.

Also, what about Irradiated Disarm(will render 3 and 4 synergies inactive for some time after cast) and Safeguard Switch(it's current synergy with decoy is completely replaced by it's new synergy)?

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23 hours ago, SmokingGoldFish said:

New Passive: When Decoy is destroyed Loki is granted 100% damage boost for 3 seconds

1. Decoy - Loki deploys a holographic copy of himself drawing enemy fire, being a high priority target in set radius lasting for set amount of duration and having double of lokis current health

2. Invisibility - Loki camouflages himself becoming invisible to enemies. This is now upper body animation meaning it can be casted while running.

3. Switch Teleport - Loki instantaneously swaps positions with a target, leaving a radiation proc on swapped enemy and making him a target for nearby enemies. Using Switch Teleport in combination with Decoy makes decoy reflect damage on the attackers for a set duration.

4. Disarm - Lets forth a wave of energy, disrupting the projectile weapons of enemies in range and forcing them to revert to melee combat. Disarmed units lose armor when attacking the Decoy.

Passive

No comment, I DO like the current passive for riven purposes and such but other than that, I don't use it much. Wish I did though. Or rather wish that played a more integral part of Warframe. It's cool, lol.

- - -

Decoy

Even with health doubled a decoy would not last long in a lot of missions. I agree Decoy needs to change though. It's just not useful as-is. Pure duration based can be abused, health given to it doesn't help cause Loki is already so weak in that department. I'd love to hear more ideas from the community on what can be done to change it and make it more useful. I personally believe...

  • The augment, "Savior Decoy" should be a normal part of the ability
  • Multiple castings should be allowed (Up to 3 or 4)
  • Should have an option to cast on allies for a cross between Mirage "Hall of Mirrors" and Wukongs, "Celestial Twin". A copy that runs around but stays close, but does no damage. Just as a distraction and to lower aggro on you in particular. 

- - -

Invisibility

Honestly I'm fine with how this is. Mostly cause I'm just used to doing a small hop, gliding and casting it so by the time I touch ground, I'm invisible. Would be a welcome change though. Maybe give it a cooler animation for casting and new cloaking effects like Ivara Prime is getting.

- - -

Switch Teleport

I've been suggesting something similar in Council chat for a while now. But instead of "Radiation"....Well know how when Nyx casts "Chaos" (Her 3rd ability) we get that hologram of Nyx pointing a gun imposed on the enemy? Basically that. You take enemy spot, enemy takes your spot with a hologram of Loki on them. They recieve xxxx% more damage while under this effect and Loki himself would have the hologram of the enemy on him. Same as radiation effect in a way but it's set on the duration of the ability instead of a proc duration. Could have the same duration as Cloaking, but you appear as the enemy now. So long as you don't do any crazy maneuvers your disguise isn't broken. While disguised you could,

  • Bypass lasers and cameras
  • Unlock control panels/hacking panels instantly
  • Breaking disguise for an attack gives you a xxx% boost in damage for x amount of seconds

Could also let Loki Switch Teleport with dead bodies before they vanish so he can lie in wait similar to Hydroid. Ambush them that way for that damage bonus. 

- - -

Disarm

If Decoys can last long enough to warrant your idea, I feel like that could work. Though not a permanent loss to armour. Basically explained in that they're distracted by the decoy and attacking from their rear would bypass their armour cause they weren't expecting it. 

- - -

Synergy between abilities

Casting Decoys while invisible could create, "fading decoys" in a small radius from the cast point. They just appear and disappear repeatedly over and over in that small area to confuse enemies and increase their survivability. 

Casting Invisibility while switched with an enemy will make it look like the enemy you're disguised as, just dies randomly. (Not killed by a frame) This could keep the train rolling in that there's no Tenno on board there and keep you "in stealth" (Either disguised or invisible) so no alarms are ever sounded. 

Disarming then Switching with an enemy will make it seem like you're an enemy with a weapon still. As a result enemy will stack up on you similar to how they do so with Nullifier/Frost eximus units to try and stay protected. Giving Loki an easy time to cut down groups in close quarters

- - -

I'm sure the community and DE could come up with more balanced ways of implementing these ideas but damnit Loki's one of the oldest frames and he's been largely ignored. Switch Teleport in particular is a relic of maneuvering the battlefield. Something we have NO problems with today. 

Edited by Sunder
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On 2019-12-07 at 3:57 PM, SmokingGoldFish said:

New Passive: When Decoy is destroyed Loki is granted 100% damage boost for 3 seconds

Loki is not made to be played as a Damage frame, plus 3 seconds for what i assume is either a damage bonus to the BASE value of everything or it acts as a 2x multiplier for damage, is honestly hot garbage considering it would be an annoyance to keep deploying a clone or abuse it somehow to glitch it somehow into a stackable damage bonus. He honestly needs a new passive since wall clinging is not many do and likely only helps in pvp or lua spy based missions. Which do people even really do anymore on those content alone with nothing associated with it?

Quote

1. Decoy - Loki deploys a holographic copy of himself drawing enemy fire, being a high priority target in set radius lasting for set amount of duration and having double of lokis current health.

Instead of scaling off of current health, the clone should get a health base of around 1k~2k and get a scaling bonus based on DURATION. Loki`s entire kit gets no real benefit on power str and its base health is garbage compared to stuff like Wukong, So even if you were to give Loki a 2-3 set Umbral Vitality bonus (which would be stupid since Loki does not really have any armor), the health pool would still be garbage. Range only benefits the most on radial disarm which only the most savy of big-brain players would abuse that cheese, which plenty of better ways would be present to handle them. Plus you have to deal with certain enemies who would get no real benefit occuring since that debuff would not matter to them *cough* Infested/Butchers/Ancients/Bursas/Moas/etc. *cough*

Or at the very least it should gets a DAMAGE REDUCTION bonus that scales off of duration where it might cap off around to 75~80%. Which would at least justify its static health crapper.

Quote

2. Invisibility - Loki camouflages himself becoming invisible to enemies. This is now upper body animation meaning it can be casted while running.

That is just a QoL fix that plenty of 1 & 2 warframe abilities that do not involve a channel should honestly already have. This ability needs plenty more to it, such as raising that pathetic 12 second base up a bit. If D.E. is not going to add anything new to it, then it needs to get a casting animation speed up, a higher base, preferably at 18 to 20 seconds and be allowed to be recasted, since how many frames with ridiculous buffs allow you to recast refresh it?

If D.E. is not going to use the starter frame excuse on Loki anymore, they could at least buff its stats or flexibility to be a BEAST in stealth content, which is suppose to be its specialty, but it has had a unchanged kit with no real additions. Which also does not help that you could merge 2 or even 3 of his abilities into one in order to have its capability to be some-what justified, Namely Decoy & Switch Teleport.

Quote

3. Switch Teleport - Loki instantaneously swaps positions with a target, leaving a radiation proc on swapped enemy and making him a target for nearby enemies. Using Switch Teleport in combination with Decoy makes decoy reflect damage on the attackers for a set duration.

Honestly this sounds more like a augment that would `work` compared to that Savior Decoy or Safeguard switch. Only thing it has running for at the moment is the 25 energy cost. But honestly Decoy & Switch teleport should just be 10 and Invisibility should be 25. Especially since they all have no damage potential, no real C.C. potential and plenty of frames could mass C.C. a room and its still cost around 50 or so energy (Aka Freakin Nidus & Vauban???)

Though i would rather a radiation based AoE is proceed every time you use Switch teleport period. This would atleast give it an offensive capability to justify using it in combat, since as long as you are not the only target present or the closest one, enemies will very least be distracted by fighting eachother. Also, REFLECTION IS GARBAGE DUE TO HOW E-health WORKS WITH ENEMIES COMPARED TO WARFRAMES. Namely that, enemies do alot less damage compared to us, because we have a lot smaller E-health compared to thars and this is why Wu-kong & Equinox specters work good, because they are using `our weapons` with all the modifications, plus a damage bonus on top of it.

As for a Decoy interaction, it could make use of a little passive `renewal idea`, i will mention later.

Quote

4. Disarm - Lets forth a wave of energy, disrupting the projectile weapons of enemies in range and forcing them to revert to melee combat. Disarmed units lose armor when attacking the Decoy.

They honestly need to first of all REMOVE  the damage effect, Loki only has this skill that scales on power strength and its utter garbage base. Freaking look at Ember or Vauban damage bases and they have a sheet ton of ways to innately buff the crap, not to mention Ember an innately apply heat, which got that ridiculous debuff bonus, While Vauban still gets his damage bonus against enemies incapacitated in some way. Same gag as the smartie bois can make it look strong, but can it truly out-weight the idea of using frames with much easier to use AoE effects like Equinox`s Augment, Baruuk`s Sleep proc field & Nova`s Slow for example?

Plus honestly the augment effect should be innate, since disarm does not work on a good half of the enemies and since Loki`s kit is not as ridiculously overloaded as frames like Baruuk or Hildyrn, he needs to honestly get ALOT of special C.C. measures that could be entirely unique to him, so his ROLE could fit as a DISRUPTION & STEALTH frame, not another one trick pony meme frame.

Granted we have plenty of those, But Excalibur at the very least has the excuse of being the vanilla OFFENSIVE STARTER frame and 2 and a half abilities which are utter garbage, even with thar augments, to justify his 4th ability being so ridiculously overpowered.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Now what do i mean by passive renewal? Here`s the jist:

New passive(s): Optical Haze & a unique radiation debuff called Deception.

Pretty much plenty of newer passives are extremely overpowered (Wisp`s perma-stealth via bunny hopping, Hildyrn`s Shield gating) or just get some ridiculous free`lo interaction abuse (Ember gaining power str for every enemy set on fire and Vauban getting damage long as a enemy is CC`d in some way). But since Loki has no damage measures, not really anything except one method to apply a non-standard debuff and most parkour ones are garbage unless your name is Nezha or Mirage. It makes sense to focus on a passive set that gives Loki a unique way to reduce him getting focused on.

  • Optical Haze- If Loki is not in combat and has no enemies within 3~ meters of him, he gains a Haze effect which has enemies see him as a friendly unit. As long as Loki does not attack a enemy(or cause noise that would alert them), enemies are not in a fully alert state or get closer then 3~ meters. In addition, the Haze effect lasts a short while after any of the 3 ways it could be dispelled happen, which is a short moment before enemies fully realize the trick and those enemies become immune to Optical Haze (Aka better kill them asap).
  • Deception debuff- Loki`s abilities can cause a special radiation debuff called Deception. When a enemy is under the Deception debuff, other enemies will see them as a enemy unit, in addition to giving a higher priority list to attack them within 10-15ish meters of the debuffed unit. Plus any enemies who attack a unit under Deception will also get Deception applied to them. Deception has a short duration and cannot refresh on units with it `while active` and a few seconds after it expires. These effects can be applied thru Switch teleporting a enemy, having enemies attack a decoy and thru the new `extra effect` on top of the disarm effect of Radial disarm.

Granted, they might sound overpowered, but try to remember, Loki has no real damage abilities, radiation`s debuff is a rather useless C.C. ability since all it does is turn off friendly fire with enemies and they usually cant kill each other before the radiation effect expires, he does not really need any armor stripping capabilities, because then EVERY warframe needs one and that is just a sad excuse to not do any creativity on kits.

Plus the Optical Haze would not be perma stealth, its more of a way to enhance his high mobility and stealth focus, which could create a incentive for players to sneak around on walls and slightly different paths to stay out of the detection radius where enemies will be alert to him once they get visual contact within that 3~ meter radius.

As for the Deception buff, his name is freaking Loki for cripes sake, let him get some REAL befuddling measures, Freaking Nyx`s Chaos is literally just Loki`s augment with some ridiculous bases that make even base Radial Disarm look terrible.

Which Nyx`s is a 75 cost ability with 25 range and 25 seconds of duration. While Loki`s Ultimate has a range of 20 and the augment bonus only lasts a measly 9 seconds. Meaning you would need around 280% duration just to have it match the base of Nyx`s Chaos and it would still be greatly inferior still. Especially since a average nyx setup could likely get around to 40~60 meters and 50 or so radiation duration lasting and her augment straight up lets her put a debuff region which could be great for choking corridors.

 

Anyway took me a while to post this quote due to various distractions. Basic idea is to give him useful C.C. that does a real job of DISTRACTING enemies for both combat & capitalize his sneaky capabilities better, which makes it easier for him to enjoy popping each of thar heads off one by one while making him able to get around easier as a frame who is suppose to be the literal definition of stealth. Yet most of his kit will just get neglected cause of operators & Parkour or is too fragile of C.C. (a decoy that does not scale and a disarm with a huge cost, chunky casting animation time, piss poor damage base which no one should build power strength for and a good deal of enemies are not going to get screwed over that much on being disarmed by).

But in all honestly, if Nezha gets to get a huge health pool boost, then Loki deserves the same since he aint no Vauban who gets to stack spam huge amounts of C.C. traps everywhere or a Ivara with just as ridiculous number of tools also.

Edited by Avienas
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vor 7 Stunden schrieb Avienas:

Loki is not made to be played as a Damage frame, plus 3 seconds for what i assume is either a damage bonus to the BASE value of everything or it acts as a 2x multiplier for damage, is honestly hot garbage considering it would be an annoyance to keep deploying a clone or abuse it somehow to glitch it somehow into a stackable damage bonus. He honestly needs a new passive since wall clinging is not many do and likely only helps in pvp or lua spy based missions. Which do people even really do anymore on those content alone with nothing associated with it?

Instead of scaling off of current health, the clone should get a health base of around 1k~2k and get a scaling bonus based on DURATION. Loki`s entire kit gets no real benefit on power str and its base health is garbage compared to stuff like Wukong, So even if you were to give Loki a 2-3 set Umbral Vitality bonus (which would be stupid since Loki does not really have any armor), the health pool would still be garbage. Range only benefits the most on radial disarm which only the most savy of big-brain players would abuse that cheese, which plenty of better ways would be present to handle them. Plus you have to deal with certain enemies who would get no real benefit occuring since that debuff would not matter to them *cough* Infested/Butchers/Ancients/Bursas/Moas/etc. *cough*

Or at the very least it should gets a DAMAGE REDUCTION bonus that scales off of duration where it might cap off around to 75~80%. Which would at least justify its static health crapper.

That is just a QoL fix that plenty of 1 & 2 warframe abilities that do not involve a channel should honestly already have. This ability needs plenty more to it, such as raising that pathetic 12 second base up a bit. If D.E. is not going to add anything new to it, then it needs to get a casting animation speed up, a higher base, preferably at 18 to 20 seconds and be allowed to be recasted, since how many frames with ridiculous buffs allow you to recast refresh it?

If D.E. is not going to use the starter frame excuse on Loki anymore, they could at least buff its stats or flexibility to be a BEAST in stealth content, which is suppose to be its specialty, but it has had a unchanged kit with no real additions. Which also does not help that you could merge 2 or even 3 of his abilities into one in order to have its capability to be some-what justified, Namely Decoy & Switch Teleport.

Honestly this sounds more like a augment that would `work` compared to that Savior Decoy or Safeguard switch. Only thing it has running for at the moment is the 25 energy cost. But honestly Decoy & Switch teleport should just be 10 and Invisibility should be 25. Especially since they all have no damage potential, no real C.C. potential and plenty of frames could mass C.C. a room and its still cost around 50 or so energy (Aka Freakin Nidus & Vauban???)

Though i would rather a radiation based AoE is proceed every time you use Switch teleport period. This would atleast give it an offensive capability to justify using it in combat, since as long as you are not the only target present or the closest one, enemies will very least be distracted by fighting eachother. Also, REFLECTION IS GARBAGE DUE TO HOW E-health WORKS WITH ENEMIES COMPARED TO WARFRAMES. Namely that, enemies do alot less damage compared to us, because we have a lot smaller E-health compared to thars and this is why Wu-kong & Equinox specters work good, because they are using `our weapons` with all the modifications, plus a damage bonus on top of it.

As for a Decoy interaction, it could make use of a little passive `renewal idea`, i will mention later.

They honestly need to first of all REMOVE  the damage effect, Loki only has this skill that scales on power strength and its utter garbage base. Freaking look at Ember or Vauban damage bases and they have a sheet ton of ways to innately buff the crap, not to mention Ember an innately apply heat, which got that ridiculous debuff bonus, While Vauban still gets his damage bonus against enemies incapacitated in some way. Same gag as the smartie bois can make it look strong, but can it truly out-weight the idea of using frames with much easier to use AoE effects like Equinox`s Augment, Baruuk`s Sleep proc field & Nova`s Slow for example?

Plus honestly the augment effect should be innate, since disarm does not work on a good half of the enemies and since Loki`s kit is not as ridiculously overloaded as frames like Baruuk or Hildyrn, he needs to honestly get ALOT of special C.C. measures that could be entirely unique to him, so his ROLE could fit as a DISRUPTION & STEALTH frame, not another one trick pony meme frame.

Granted we have plenty of those, But Excalibur at the very least has the excuse of being the vanilla OFFENSIVE STARTER frame and 2 and a half abilities which are utter garbage, even with thar augments, to justify his 4th ability being so ridiculously overpowered.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Now what do i mean by passive renewal? Here`s the jist:

New passive(s): Optical Haze & a unique radiation debuff called Deception.

Pretty much plenty of newer passives are extremely overpowered (Wisp`s perma-stealth via bunny hopping, Hildyrn`s Shield gating) or just get some ridiculous free`lo interaction abuse (Ember gaining power str for every enemy set on fire and Vauban getting damage long as a enemy is CC`d in some way). But since Loki has no damage measures, not really anything except one method to apply a non-standard debuff and most parkour ones are garbage unless your name is Nezha or Mirage. It makes sense to focus on a passive set that gives Loki a unique way to reduce him getting focused on.

  • Optical Haze- If Loki is not in combat and has no enemies within 3~ meters of him, he gains a Haze effect which has enemies see him as a friendly unit. As long as Loki does not attack a enemy(or cause noise that would alert them), enemies are not in a fully alert state or get closer then 3~ meters. In addition, the Haze effect lasts a short while after any of the 3 ways it could be dispelled happen, which is a short moment before enemies fully realize the trick and those enemies become immune to Optical Haze (Aka better kill them asap).
  • Deception debuff- Loki`s abilities can cause a special radiation debuff called Deception. When a enemy is under the Deception debuff, other enemies will see them as a enemy unit, in addition to giving a higher priority list to attack them within 10-15ish meters of the debuffed unit. Plus any enemies who attack a unit under Deception will also get Deception applied to them. Deception has a short duration and cannot refresh on units with it `while active` and a few seconds after it expires. These effects can be applied thru Switch teleporting a enemy, having enemies attack a decoy and thru the new `extra effect` on top of the disarm effect of Radial disarm.

Granted, they might sound overpowered, but try to remember, Loki has no real damage abilities, radiation`s debuff is a rather useless C.C. ability since all it does is turn off friendly fire with enemies and they usually cant kill each other before the radiation effect expires, he does not really need any armor stripping capabilities, because then EVERY warframe needs one and that is just a sad excuse to not do any creativity on kits.

Plus the Optical Haze would not be perma stealth, its more of a way to enhance his high mobility and stealth focus, which could create a incentive for players to sneak around on walls and slightly different paths to stay out of the detection radius where enemies will be alert to him once they get visual contact within that 3~ meter radius.

As for the Deception buff, his name is freaking Loki for cripes sake, let him get some REAL befuddling measures, Freaking Nyx`s Chaos is literally just Loki`s augment with some ridiculous bases that make even base Radial Disarm look terrible.

Which Nyx`s is a 75 cost ability with 25 range and 25 seconds of duration. While Loki`s Ultimate has a range of 20 and the augment bonus only lasts a measly 9 seconds. Meaning you would need around 280% duration just to have it match the base of Nyx`s Chaos and it would still be greatly inferior still. Especially since a average nyx setup could likely get around to 40~60 meters and 50 or so radiation duration lasting and her augment straight up lets her put a debuff region which could be great for choking corridors.

 

Anyway took me a while to post this quote due to various distractions. Basic idea is to give him useful C.C. that does a real job of DISTRACTING enemies for both combat & capitalize his sneaky capabilities better, which makes it easier for him to enjoy popping each of thar heads off one by one while making him able to get around easier as a frame who is suppose to be the literal definition of stealth. Yet most of his kit will just get neglected cause of operators & Parkour or is too fragile of C.C. (a decoy that does not scale and a disarm with a huge cost, chunky casting animation time, piss poor damage base which no one should build power strength for and a good deal of enemies are not going to get screwed over that much on being disarmed by).

But in all honestly, if Nezha gets to get a huge health pool boost, then Loki deserves the same since he aint no Vauban who gets to stack spam huge amounts of C.C. traps everywhere or a Ivara with just as ridiculous number of tools also.

First time, that I can understand, why loki could use a rework. It seems that I was just as blind, as the people, who think, that Ash need only a few qol changes.

Thank you for opening my eyes.

vor 15 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Vexx757:

You have some interesting ideas. Here is what I would do to improve loki, tell me what you think.

 

Loki:

New Passive: Every time Loki uses his abilities on an enemy there is a 50% chance they will receive a proc radiation and radiation lasts 50% longer. (this will make sense when you read on)

 

1st ability:

·       After cast, it`s immune to damage for five seconds while absorbing damage however, the five seconds of immunity doesn’t start until it gets attacked. Depending on the damage stored it will be converted into health for more survivability.

·       Holding the ability will make the decoy mobile within a 10m radius which can be increased by range mods.

·       When shooting, enemies will be affected by an impact proc making them stagger.

·       There is a 50% chance of it to proc blast damage knocking enemies down, if this happens, enemies within a 30m radius will prioritise the decoy as a dangerous threat increasing threat levels for seven seconds. (threat levels higher than interception and defence targets)

·       It will use whatever primary or secondary weapon Loki is currently using.

 

2nd ability:

·       When you shoot your weapon at a certain point, enemies will seek out the location of the surface where the bullet hit.

·       (Synergy) An enemy you kill while invisible will give the 1st ability 40% critical chance to and 3.0 critical damage for 15 seconds.

 

3rd ability:

·       After switching with the enemy, loki will be invulnerable for three seconds.

·       Loki is always be facing the enemy he`s switches with.

·       If he teleports into a group of enemies, they will receive a knock down in a 10m radius however, this only works if you`re not invisible.

·       If you have a melee weapon equipped while doing so, enemies will take slide attack damage from melee weapon.

·       If an enemy is killed by it, Loki will receive 70% critical chance and status chance increase on weapons for 15 seconds.

·       (Synergy) If you decide to switch places with the decoy, you and the decoy will knock down enemies within a 15m radius.

 

4th ability:

·       Holding the ability will make enemies weapons explode dealing 1000 blast damage and knocking them down. This can be increased by strength mods.

·       This will deactivate infested eximus for 20 seconds.

·       (Synergy) If you use this after receiving critical and status chance from teleporting to an ally, the critical chance status chance will carry over to enemies affected by blast increasing its damage.

If you really dislike the idea of someone else just say it. But copying the own concept is not better than throwing someone into a hole and saying you wasn't it.

Edited by ES-Flinter
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7 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

-snip-

I`m not coping, this is a copy and past of some changes I came up with ages ago and if me and the op have similar ideas, that means that we somewhat think alike. What do I look like taking some of op`s ides and claiming that I came up with it? that's stupid besides Loki needs a revisit not a rework.

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4 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

I`m not coping, this is a copy and past of some changes I came up with ages ago and if me and the op have similar ideas, that means that we somewhat think alike. What do I look like taking some of op`s ides and claiming that I came up with it? that's stupid besides Loki needs a revisit not a rework.

Not gonna lie but i just browsed over your suggestions on a Loki rework, and im not really a fan of it. Since its another gag of cramming damage bonuses on a frame not ABOUT damage at all and making every frame into having damage buffs especially ones that could clearly scale off of power strength is just going to make people not use what the kit is about and just straight up do the same gag as Speed-volts, Playing them for one specific ability and screwing survivability measures to just yolo another glass cannon trope.

Only brownie points you get though is its all a stand-alone, `greedy` no-support synergy kit which honestly also does not help you crammed a bunch of knockdown and crit chance/crit damage buffs. Which we all know how silly people love to get with 200~330% power strength builds.

Now lets take a proper listing over it .

On 2019-12-08 at 8:34 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Loki:

New Passive: Every time Loki uses his abilities on an enemy there is a 50% chance they will receive a proc radiation and radiation lasts 50% longer. (this will make sense when you read on)

So i did the browse over and did not see anything that has guranteed radiation proc tacked onto the abilities and shoving a coin flip radiation proc is the same argument as Vauban`s Teslas being stuck with only a 50% chance to stun a enemy(which atleast he can charge and throw out a BUNCH of them at once to justify it better), so your basically declaring that: Loki should only run radiation based weapons, which the only two instances your likely to capitalize on those are Eidolons (which are immune to the effect) or Index (Since the enemies are too mix on damage weakness so sticking with Radiation is the best bet, but again, your doing it for damage boon, not the effect).

Unless this 50% chance can scale off of power strength, it has little use in design-wise that clearly shows your just trying to give a catch all proc to have Loki constantly cast abilities, when if you do not make the majority of them as one handed only casting animation types, since any frame with such absurdly fragile base armor/health is liable to get killed unless they have actual C.C. like Vauban or abilities that ACTUALLY gives them real damage mitigation measures. Theres a reason why people wanted the `reflection debuff` to get replaced with `damage reduction` on Titania`s tribute since damage reflection without mitigating the damage would do nothing and she already has a accuracy drop one, which kind of counters the logic of having a reflection debuff. Glad D.E. decided to let Titania have both reflection & damage reduction in one of the debuffs.

This honestly is just Ash`s slash proc bleed bonus, but atleast Slash has the TRUE damage bonus plus can stack, Plus plenty of his abilities just straight up causes slash procs with no questions asked. 

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1st ability:

·       After cast, it`s immune to damage for five seconds while absorbing damage however, the five seconds of immunity doesn’t start until it gets attacked. Depending on the damage stored it will be converted into health for more survivability.

So you basically crammed iron skin on a Decoy, Unless you are suggesting the thing has a absurdly high scaling bonus, while also scaling off of duration, this part would be shiite if it scaled off of power strength. 

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·       Holding the ability will make the decoy mobile within a 10m radius which can be increased by range mods.

·       When shooting, enemies will be affected by an impact proc making them stagger.

Though i like the idea of a decoy that moves around and can actually do something that i WISH sentinels could actually do(Instead most having to have ridiculous ham-fisting measures to give a modicrum of decent c.c. or those crazy meme-sters making some sentinel able to nuke a thing once in a while) This ability is pulling the poor man`s version of C.C. by having an ability likely able to only C.C. one target at a time, which does not account for if the decoy will switch targets often, especially after causing a stagger proc to keep it from just spamming impact procs on a single enemy, Which could just be a grineer lancer while a bunch of noxes, bombards & butchers could walk by and yeet a defense target or something.

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·       There is a 50% chance of it to proc blast damage knocking enemies down, if this happens, enemies within a 30m radius will prioritise the decoy as a dangerous threat increasing threat levels for seven seconds. (threat levels higher than interception and defence targets)

Another coin flip of one of the most ridiculously b.s. things that people normally avoid for dual elementals. No one enjoys rag doll effects since it usually can lead to enemies flying away when you are trying to kill the enemy. Plus you decided to cram a 30 meter BASE taunt on a single ability, Which combined with how most loki builds tend to get in the 200% power duration region, means that Loki gets a more ridiculously abusive Nyx`s Chaos because it forces enemies to suddenly drop what they are doing to attack a decoy, Which in turn is going to make it die insanely fast unless you somehow had a bombard spam shooting it the first few seconds of it being spawned in, which most spawn in targets are going to have ZERO enmity in the first few seconds of appearing.

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·       It will use whatever primary or secondary weapon Loki is currently using.

So you do understand what you just basically declared on giving a decoy a impact `guranteed proc and chance to proc a blast effect at 50% chance proc right with it using whatever weapon you have equipped right? Because if it copies the mechanic of guns, then people are going to have fun giving it a Supra Vandal and enjoy them perpetually spamming impact procs or being a troll by repeatedly spam proc`ing blast so everything in the map constantly rush it.

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2nd ability:

·       When you shoot your weapon at a certain point, enemies will seek out the location of the surface where the bullet hit.

So basically putting a innate Noise Arrow on all of Loki`s weapons when normally such a interaction should just be innate to all warframes in general as long as they are not in a detectable radius and enemies should get alerted to check where a bullet hit the ground and not suddenly know a enemy is behind a wall, especially if the gun was silenced which should be silencing the sound of the gun firing, not the bullet ramming into objects.

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·       (Synergy) An enemy you kill while invisible will give the 1st ability 40% critical chance to and 3.0 critical damage for 15 seconds.

So basically a 40% C.C. base and a 3x crit damage that lasts for a 15 seconds, With no real improvements to the actual invisibility skill which lasts only 12 seconds, has a casting animation delay and such a bonus ONLY applies to decoys, which cant do damage last i checked, Unless you decided suddenly its blast procs are done thru crit chance procs, which still does not explain why they suddenly can do damage and not even factor in most Loki builds originally give zero qualms about power strength, meaning they will have around 30~% power strength, making this ability, the chance to blast proc and any damage it could do, extremely neglible.

And do not pull the it does not scale period card, Not many frames use that card and usually they have to be overloaded such as Titania`s tributes to justify it. Which each tribute last a fixed 2 minutes and has a range of 35 meters to justify it not having any scaling. Plus each debuff is very chonky, a -50% accuracy drop, a 50% D.Reduction and D.Reflection, a -25% freaking AoE slow AND a +75% companion & razorwing damage bonus, which still debuffs targets with reducing thar damage if they were tribute`D and she gets extra razorwing flies to it. Which still also has the card that it needs specific units for each specific `Aura` debuff.

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3rd ability:

·       After switching with the enemy, loki will be invulnerable for three seconds.

Having a invulnerability for a few seconds to address how disorienting instant displacement when said effect is not optimized enough to mitigate said disorientation is a kind of must have. Sadly you forgot to account for power duration so people could enjoy abusing it to keep 5~7 or more seconds of invincibility up, almost constantly and keep refreshing it, Which you need to remember said ability only costs 25 energy and Loki prime has a base of 263 energy and most setups would likely still have him running that efficiency so he could up-keep this gag alot. So you basically gave Loki the ability to pull the Old Wu-kong as long as he has a dance partner to yolo with.

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·       Loki is always be facing the enemy he`s switches with.

So it basically lets him have a easier target to constantly hostage switch teleport with, letting him able to easily jump into a group of enemies in a repeatitive manner which can let him be in invincibility for a good few seconds on of having a measure to do damage with them(that can scale on his melee weapon`s stats), yeah that is certainly not overpowered at all.

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·       If he teleports into a group of enemies, they will receive a knock down in a 10m radius however, this only works if you`re not invisible.

Loki should never be NOT using his invisibility. This is the kind of ability you normally cram into a offensive frame which you likely intend to use as a method to get in a close encounter situation, then do a heavy attack ground slam to yeet them. Which honestly this is just Wukong`s Celestial stomp augment except as a innate effect. Plus again, his base health & shields are 225 & armor is 65 in BOTH reg and prime versions, Loki prime himself needs a buff since most frames get 2 chunky boosts on bases, Loki only got roughly 50 extra energy base. Never the less This effect is something that would fit more to Ash since he goes TO a target, not replace a target just to be next to a bunch of enemies.

Which considering how you basically worded this ability, basically means Loki could just spam it in a crowd and pull spam-some knockdown like a jerk wad.

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·       If you have a melee weapon equipped while doing so, enemies will take slide attack damage from melee weapon.

Yeah its too bad stuff like Maiming strike got nerfed and the new trope is heavy attacks. Unless your having this setup so people build up a bunch of combo counter to then just go orange/yellow crit-mc`gee by letting Loki do switch teleport `sliding attack damage procs`, with weapons with absurd crit/damage bases. Which again, this is something that would make more sense with Ash, the Sneaky frame that can actually achieve 1000~1300 health and has a Invisibility that does not leave him rooted to the ground.

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·       If an enemy is killed by it, Loki will receive 70% critical chance and status chance increase on weapons for 15 seconds.

And there is that annoying headache design, Your seriously wanting Loki to play more like a Assassin frame instead of a Infiltration frame considering your loading his kit with combat like mechanics constantly around him killing units which then multiply into him able to kill enemies faster. Which again Loki normally does not care about power strength, Which means all the abilities your ham-fisting in here means Loki has to run some minor boost effects and screw anything that likely has more then 150% power/range/duration modifier, which means his efficiency/duration normal focus has to take a nose-dive just to inch range and power strength to stay above poor values.

Which this is kind of going to just let Loki be some knockdown trolling machine who can keep permanently invincible as long as fodder is around (Which does not help when everyone is always going to be killing said units), but if Loki could use switch teleport on bosses like Mutalist Alad V, Kuva Liches and so on, it would just be beyond broken in so many ways, While letting him get what is basically going to be like a free point strike on everything since cannon fodder always appear, Too bad enemies would have to be killed by the switch teleport which relies on enemies being clustered together to work. So it would already be niche locked as something into a situation where others might kill the group before you can switch teleport and kill said enemies, Which if your then spec`ing for a melee setup, Your just basically pulling Ash`s Fatal Teleport in AoE fashion on Loki, which just means Loki is just getting a even more convoluted ability which does not require an Augment, Plus it would be at a 25 cost still since if it suddenly got a higher cost, would kind of make people not want to use it as much anymore.

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·       (Synergy) If you decide to switch places with the decoy, you and the decoy will knock down enemies within a 15m radius.

You need to honestly just replace all these knockdown effects with radiation. Since this would just be letting Loki able to yolo maps if he could setup a decoy anywhere and then he would be able to switch teleport the spot and likely i assume part of your decision would have you face the decoy if you switch teleport to it also. Which imagine someone putting the decoy right in front of themselves and repeatedly spamming it with the Switch Teleport ability that uses your melee weapon`s stats out to basically chain proc sliding damage effects on a group of enemies that was gathered by the decoy and likely having around a 15-30 meter radius reach on it. Which further adds extra crit chance and status proc chance soon as one dies

So yeah, this ability literally just becomes old melee system`s maiming strike meta except your just spamming an ability button then sliding and having to do the spin motion itself. Which the decoy could be put elsewhere to keep going across the map to keep the spam procs going.

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4th ability:

·       Holding the ability will make enemies weapons explode dealing 1000 blast damage and knocking them down. This can be increased by strength mods.

They already take damage and discard thar guns, are you basically saying it can explode thar shock sticks/machetes forcing them to be unable to attack you period or they try to melee you haphazardly? Also this does not really contribute to Ospreys, Bursas & infested unit which would basically be immune to disarm to begin with.

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·       This will deactivate infested eximus for 20 seconds.

What? Mag`s Counter pulse specifically for INFESTED EXIMUS units only? So Boilers, Ancients, Broodmothers, Every Bursa under the sun, Toxin/Fire/Ice Grineer/Corpus Eximus units and so many others get a free pass?

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·       (Synergy) If you use this after receiving critical and status chance from teleporting to an ally, the critical chance status chance will carry over to enemies affected by blast increasing its damage.

Ok wait what? Now Loki gets a crit/status chance bonus by teleporting TO an ally, when his switch teleport TRADES places with a target, the Crit/status bonus was originally for if he kills a unit thru switch teleport, which would likely only be when his melee weapons are out to give it a slide attack modifier bonus based on the melee weapon, Plus the crit/Crit dmg bonus is only to the decoy only while you are invisible? Lots of ridiculous inconsistencies here, plus your basically letting an ABILITY able to crit. Not an exalted weapon, A freaking ability which has a 500 base damage for the regular disarm and 1000 for this so-called blast bonus.

Which we all know, Alot of interaction elements need to be put in place, to justify having a silly rather pee-poor damage value, (Refer to Harrow`s entire kit, Equinox`s Maim ability, Ember & Vauban`s kits) to make an ability able to be used as a damage ability or you just end up with an effect that completely loses its useful-ness at higher level content, Especially if the intent is to use it in combat measures, for a frame that has trash health/armor and you just seem to have been all over the place on putting combat-based boons to his kit, yet did not much to giving him survivability functions, instead of making his first ability one of the most ridiculously overpowered C.C. measure in place that would likely die insanely fast and lose its taunt effects, but Loki could basically keep spam re-casting it into some perpetual cest-pool of free-lo taunt C.C. Especially if it can use any gun and be loaded with a fast-firing gun so it just spam procs that taunt almost instantly every time its summoned.

Final Verdict: Alot of this stuff would of made more sense on Ash instead of Loki, since a good chunk of it is more for a assassin focused kit while the other half just wants to let Loki suddenly become like those Orb Vallis moas and able to constantly knock down things, which whether its us getting knock down or enemies flying away from the rag`doll, are going to be frustrating to us regardless, since it basically can be more frustrating then useful, Which atleast radiation procs would have enemies distracted and not flying everywhere, making it difficult to shoot them in the head or something. Oh plus that does not help considering how long a knockdown proc can last, likely a good deal of the radiation debuff would of ended, but i assume thats why you ham-fisted a radiation version of Ash`s passive in to try and justify the knockdown/rag-doll gags. But thats honestly just covering one debuff that gets in the way of another debuff.

Edited by Avienas
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vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Vexx757:

I`m not coping, this is a copy and past of some changes I came up with ages ago and if me and the op have similar ideas, that means that we somewhat think alike. What do I look like taking some of op`s ides and claiming that I came up with it? that's stupid besides Loki needs a revisit not a rework.

I was talking about, that you copied your own concept here. Sorry if it was misunderstanding.

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yeah i agree with the fact DE needs to come up with the way to make decoy some what tougher, and useful. some way of scaling that health to decent numbers. i would not make it a turret tho, its totally unnecessary. Invisibility is one of the best powers in the game and does not require any more buffs except run casting wich is a QoL, its long enough, the longest in the game to be precise and it grants you sweet melee multiplier and basically invincibility. Switch teleport needs some other reason for being used other than just being a teleport power (not even a good one at that), so i would make it work in combination with decoys somehow. Disarm needs some small buffs or tweaks but essentially it is doing what it is supposed to.

No need for writing novels about loki, its best to keep it simple and throw some ideas that DE might find fun or creative, noone wants to read long ass suggestions that go into too much detail, not even devs i guess.

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On 2019-12-07 at 12:57 PM, SmokingGoldFish said:

New Passive: When Decoy is destroyed Loki is granted 100% damage boost for 3 seconds

1. Decoy - Loki deploys a holographic copy of himself drawing enemy fire, being a high priority target in set radius lasting for set amount of duration and having double of lokis current health

2. Invisibility - Loki camouflages himself becoming invisible to enemies. This is now upper body animation meaning it can be casted while running.

3. Switch Teleport - Loki instantaneously swaps positions with a target, leaving a radiation proc on swapped enemy and making him a target for nearby enemies. Using Switch Teleport in combination with Decoy makes decoy reflect damage on the attackers for a set duration.

4. Disarm - Lets forth a wave of energy, disrupting the projectile weapons of enemies in range and forcing them to revert to melee combat. Disarmed units lose armor when attacking the Decoy.

Loki can use a small buff; but we seen what happened with other characters. Him and other classic characters do still have functioning kits that we can be satisfied with.

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