Limbo Improvments

[Ikusi_Prime]

Going off the same vein as my thread about Equinox improvements (https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1145353), I wanted to put down some things I'd like to see for Limbo. He's another frame that is overly clunky, locked down by cast times. He's also generally despised, as his "divide and conquer" playstyle is counterproductive to how most people enjoy playing the game. I think he could use some love to make him a bit more flexible and teammate friendly.

 Passive: Rift Walk

- Limbo's special roll no longer interrupts reloads

- Warframes in the Rift have 10% increased movement speed, 10% reduced gravity, 10% reduced friction, and 10% increased slide

- "Black flames" visual removed. Entities that do not share your plane appear translucent, tinted in Limbo's energy colors.

- Units that do not share a plane no longer collide. If an enemy shares the space with another unit and suddenly shares their plane (e.g., Banish duration ends), those enemies are knocked away from each other and knocked down, taking transition damage.

- Transition damage changed to (25 + (2.5% of the target’s maximum HP)) * (number of seconds since the target took transition damage, max 2) as True damage.

This is a lot to unpack, but the changes are fairly straightforward.

Limbo is less mobile than other frames due to his roll's primary function of changing planes. The normal way people get around (bullet jump->aim glide->roll->slide) doesn't work as well for Limbo, as he risks exposing himself to damage he can't afford to take and loses out on potential energy regen. His roll is usually his "Oh no, I'm exposed" button, so having it not interrupt reloads would make his gameplay smoother, with fewer interruptions. Having the Rift affect the mobility of people inside it not only improves Limbo's mobility, but also makes the Rift feel distinctly different than the material plane. Preventing unit collision between planes also serves to improve this fantasy along with Limbo's options in combat.

The visual changes are pretty simple. They make it easier to tell who you can and cannot damage.

The changes to transition damage are the biggest thing here. The current implementation of flat Impact damage makes it so that Limbo's abilities murderize everything in low-level missions, but the damage isn't relevant in high level missions. These changes seek to normalize the damage across different mission types by making it so that the damage is True damage that scales with the target. The time multiplier makes it so that you can't just spam Banish or something to shred armored enemies. It should be a light, but significant, amount of damage for enemies of any level and any type.

1: Banish

- No longer puts allies in the Rift. Instead, they become "Rift Touched", making their weapons able to enemies in both the material plane and the Rift Plane for the Banish duration.

People hate being put in the Rift. They hate being told what they can and cannot hit. This change kills two birds with one stone by making it so that Banish won't put allies in the Rift, but also lets them hit whoever they feel like.

2: Stasis

- Now costs 25 energy to cast and drains 3.5 energy per second while active, instead of a set duration

- Enemies in Stasis count as dead for the purpose of enemy spawn timers.

Limbo's Rift mechanic is one of the few ways to regenerate energy while channeling an ability, yet he doesn't have any abilities that capitalize on it. He's also incredibly squishy, and depends on the CC of Stasis to not-die, even when in the Rift. Right now, Stasis baseline gives you 15 seconds of frozen time for 50 energy. This change would let you spend 50 energy to get 16.67 seconds of frozen time, if you're standing in the Rift, so it's slightly more efficient. Plus, there's the benefit of never running out of Stasis when you really need it without needing to recast.

The second change here probably seems like a head scratcher, but hear me out. Limbo suffers in mission types that depend on you killing huge batches of enemies quickly, like Survival. You can fail a Survival mission as Limbo quite easily, not because you're dying to enemies, but because your run out of air, unable to find any enemies to drop life support. This is because of Limbo's slow, methodical playstyle. This change makes it so that enemies will start spawning again as soon as you put the current group in Stasis, so the next group will be ready and waiting for you to fight them.

3: Rift Surge

- Surged enemies who die in the material plane pass their charge onto another enemy in the material plane, without resetting the duration.

A simple addition to make it harder for your allies to screw up your surge management. If they die, your ability is no longer wasted.

4: Cataclysm

- Visuals cleaned up: Edge glows on cast, then fades to a barely-visible shimmer.

- Consoles and terminals inside of a Cataclysm can now be interacted with.

- If Limbo rolls out of the edge of the Cataclysm or is rolling inside it when it ends, he remains in the Rift Plane.

- Nullifier bubbles no longer destroy Cataclysms (enemies and Limbo are still taken out of the Rift when inside the bubble)

- Gunfire can now pass through a Cataclysm, from both sides. Enemy gunfire that enters a Cataclysm will be affected by Stasis.

- The outer 20% of the radius gradually puts enemies and their gunfire in the Rift. While Stasis is active, they will be gradually slowed until they hit the edge of the inner radius.

Limbo's Cataclysm has one of the loudest ability visuals in the game. Unless you run a black or nearly-black energy color, it obscures vision to a ridiculous degree. Toning that down has been needed for a long time. Allowing console use inside Cataclysm is another QoL change that both helps him do missions and prevents griefing. Letting him roll out of Cataclysm to stay in the Rift makes staying in the Rift a bit more intuitive. Making it so that Nullifiers no longer destroy Cataclysm removes one of Limbo's biggest headaches while still making it a reasonable damper on his attempts to CC enemies and protect himself.

One of the biggest complaints about Limbo's Cataclysm is how the "hard edge" of the Rift makes it so that enemies constantly flip between planes, slowing down combat and forcing friendly players to dance around the Cataclysm's edge to even try to deal full damage to that enemy. By having enemies get slowed gradually as they approach the Cataclysm, you and your allies will have a much easier time shooting them. Combined with making it so that people can actually shoot out of a Cataclysm, and Limbo's signature ability is suddenly so much less touble to play around. Keep in mind that Cataclysm provides no protection unless Stasis is also active, putting a small energy upkeep on having that defensive area.

---

Overall, these changes make it so that Limbo doesn't have to recast his abilities nearly as often, his teammates don't need to experience the Rift if they don't want to, and using his abilities would no longer slow down combat and prevent people from killing anything. Teammates would no longer need to play around Limbo's kit, and would actually benefit from having him around in virtually every case.

 

 

 

[kapn655321]

16 minutes ago, Ikusi_Prime said:

1: Banish

- No longer puts allies in the Rift. Instead, they become "Rift Touched", making their weapons able to enemies in both the material plane and the Rift Plane for the Banish duration.

People hate being put in the Rift. They hate being told what they can and cannot hit. This change kills two birds with one stone by making it so that Banish won't put allies in the Rift, but also lets them hit whoever they feel like.

That is a pretty elegant solution!

It doesn't prevent the ally from taking non rift damage.
...and I'm not so sure it needs to?
Maybe it should prevent that damage unless you roll..?
There's some utility lost there, but it's not something that's widely regarded as appreciable enough to offset the benefit of not risking it being a problem.

 

26 minutes ago, Ikusi_Prime said:

3: Rift Surge

- Surged enemies who die in the material plane pass their charge onto another enemy in the material plane, without resetting the duration.

A simple addition to make it harder for your allies to screw up your surge management. If they die, your ability is no longer wasted.

Yes.
...though it would mean more erratic banishes.
 

21 minutes ago, Ikusi_Prime said:

having enemies get slowed gradually as they approach the Cataclysm, you and your allies will have a much easier time shooting them. Combined with making it so that people can actually shoot out of a Cataclysm,

This would make it much harder for Cataclysmic Continuum to work, as far fewer enemies would make it inside.
Not saying that we can't live without it. Shooting people out of cataclysm is already something that happens with Blast.
Certain things stagger them just enough to pop out if they're riding the edge.



I could see making Limbo no longer share the rift with allies..
but instead allies becoming rift-touched by banish, radial banish from surge, and cataclysm.
This would be a dramatic change, but also far more universal.
If expanded to all aspects, he would no longer inhibit the party, at the cost of not protecting them.
Could give a 30% damage reduction buff to allies and defense points on "Rift Touch," duration.

One change I would make to Limbo is that his Rift Haven augment increases base frame stats:
+30% max Shield, health, and energy.
Increasing the max has the function of effectively refilling these while rift touch is active, similar to a healer Chroma.



 

[Odio_los_furrys]

Really looking forward for this, with some adjust, it can be good

[Ikusi_Prime]

On 2019-12-07 at 7:37 PM, kapn655321 said:

This would make it much harder for Cataclysmic Continuum to work, as far fewer enemies would make it inside.
Not saying that we can't live without it. Shooting people out of cataclysm is already something that happens with Blast.
Certain things stagger them just enough to pop out if they're riding the edge.

I was thinking that all enemies even partially slowed would count as "in the Rift" for the purpose of Cataclysmic Continuum/Limbo's passive. The idea is that enemies at the edge would more smoothly transition into being frozen, so if they move away, you have more time to react.

As for shooting out, I think it's important to put it on-par with other defensive abilities like Gara and Frost.

 

[Azamagon]

Interesting concepts here.

Although I still prefer this guy's rework, to be honest:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/966915-warframe-rework-suggestion-limbo-rift-peek-a-boo-style-new-rift-feature-changes-to-1st-and-3d-power/

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

5 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Interesting concepts here.

Although I still prefer this guy's rework, to be honest:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/966915-warframe-rework-suggestion-limbo-rift-peek-a-boo-style-new-rift-feature-changes-to-1st-and-3d-power/

Yeah, Fox has my favorite reworks.