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Efficient alternative to redesigning warframes


Redwyrm
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You guys (DE) keep doing it for a while now, kept redesigning old unpopular warframes, giving them new sets of abilities. Sometimes it works very well (like with wukong), sometimes not so much.

But the main gameplay mechanics still remains the same - every warframe have fixed set of abilities. And where it's true you have great number of warframes to pick from, having pre-set abilities very unpopular design nowadays.

Now, partially (at very small part) problem solved for some abilities - there are syndicate mods that sometimes augment specific ability. But sometimes quite drastically changing it overall.

And since you already have that idea in mind - why not extend it globally:

1)Give every warframe 4 unique slots, one per every base skill it have. Of course those slots can be left empty, in case you prefer specific skill to work as it is.

2)Introduce unique skill-change mods. Some are already exist, like Banshee's Resonating Quake, and thus just have to be put into that directory. (needless to say that those mods also should no use capacity at all)

With that system you wouldn't even need to redesign entire warframes. But rather check which skills in particular are most unpopular - and just introduce mods that made alternative on how that skill works. Probably still starting from most unpopular warframes overall (like Mag, for example). But later on adding alternative to popular warframes, but which skills are largely unused (like Chroma's #1 and #4)

At the same time you wouldn't need to compromise on spending normal warframe slots just to alternate some of warframe skills. Except of course for the skills that augment skill work, rather than changing it. Although even those IMO all should be made as exilus (like mesa's waltz)

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Not just the explicitly rejected single Augment slot, but 4 of them. Noooo is the updated answer, I would assume.

9 hours ago, Redwyrm said:

Probably still starting from most unpopular warframes overall (like Mag, for example).

lol

9 hours ago, Redwyrm said:

Although even those IMO all should be made as exilus (like mesa's waltz)

So your idea is 5 Augment slots?

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5 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

The point of reworks is because those current abilities are either ineffective as is, or violate the way DE wants the game to be played. 

Not reworking them is not optional. Augments have been used as band-aids for broken abilities for too long as it is. Doing it for all of them doesn't solve the problem. 

Hence why i suggest alternative on how those reworks can be done.

Instead of reworking every single ability on particular warframe, they can rework abilities one by one. And if someone for some reason still would prefer old way abilities works - they can keep using those.

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6 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

The point of reworks is because those current abilities are either ineffective as is, or violate the way DE wants the game to be played. 

Not reworking them is not optional. Augments have been used as band-aids for broken abilities for too long as it is. Doing it for all of them doesn't solve the problem. 

OP have good point of view

as currently we see many frames which could have used rework or some are even in big need of rework but we get an very big nothing.....so OP suggestion is on place here as some outdated frame when ahve their literally most useless skill in game...are usable only with augment...but you know..we ahve very limited place for more than single augment in even single augment on our frames, builds to fit these augment only to get this single skill usefell from useless piece of ***

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1 hour ago, Ikserdok said:

as currently we see many frames which could have used rework or some are even in big need of rework but we get an very big nothing.....so OP suggestion is on place here as some outdated frame when ahve their literally most useless skill in game...are usable only with augment...but you know..we ahve very limited place for more than single augment in even single augment on our frames, builds to fit these augment only to get this single skill usefell from useless piece of ***

Many? I only see one - Nyx,

 And even then, it's a matter of taste. Some people enjoy her because she has less innate immortality / invincibility / killing power, therefore meaning more use of weapons and from the view of those who enjoy her, she requires more interactivity, and fun. 

As for the many other suggestions and requests for reworks that come up on the forums - honestly, none of those frames require anything much. Maybe some adjustments, not overhauls. Quick scroll at what's trending today: 

"Oberon - its totally useless" Uh no, that thing can solo eidolon hunts. Google before saying its bad,

"A Hydroid rework" Unnecessary. This guy is perfect for defense, interception, survival, LOOT.

"Limbo improvements" Yeah, let him freeze bullets again. That will restore him to his former glory imo. 

"Excalibur desperately needs a buff" And yet his exalted blade > Iron staff. And he can still spam radial javelin in certain map layouts with superb effectiveness

"Loki rework" And yet I know others who will say he's great and use him regularly for all kinds of content

"Nekros needs a rework". His army of the dead is decent when enemy levels are decent enough, plus LOOT.

"Titania deserve something" They already gave her somethings. And before they did. I have used her myself and I find her fun.

"With Ivara prime on the horizon..." She's fine. She's queen of spy, riven challenges, fishing, and conservation. Literally the best at these. Don't need to make her be master at all things, because that inevitably results her in getting nerfed at the things she's very good at now. 

"Bring banshee back to her former glory" Yeah ok give her back resonating quake

"Squishy frames have no place in future content" Quick thinking. Hunter adrenaline. Arcanes. Adaptation. Radial nukes and CC to prevent enemies from getting close enough to shoot them

"Zephyr tweaks..." her floatiness might need adjustment, and her tornado perhaps. Give some synergy between altitude and radial melee slam would be cool too. But no overhauls really needed

"Nerf request: Wukong twin" Nah. AI isn't that strong to begin with. At most, make Wuclone do a sleeping / meditating gesture  if Human player sleeps (no button input after 30s or so). That would be funny

"Why killing wukong and his staff" Maybe melee 2.9999 oversight. Maybe not. 

"About wisp walking in melee mode" Should be in animation feedback forums imo.

"Chroma rework" The eidolon master killer doesn't need a rework

"Beast companion..." Wrong forum

"Mag's pull should not drag enemies out of magnetize" Seconded.

"Vauban deployed ball counter' Good idea.

 

Edited by Xepthrichros
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1 hour ago, Xepthrichros said:

Many? I only see one - Nyx,

 And even then, it's a matter of taste. Some people enjoy her because she has less innate immortality / invincibility / killing power, therefore meaning more use of weapons and from the view of those who enjoy her, she requires more interactivity, and fun. 

As for the many other suggestions and requests for reworks that come up on the forums - honestly, none of those frames require anything much. Maybe some adjustments, not overhauls. Quick scroll at what's trending today: 

"Oberon - its totally useless" Uh no, that thing can solo eidolon hunts. Google before saying its bad,

"A Hydroid rework" Unnecessary. This guy is perfect for defense, interception, survival, LOOT.

"Limbo improvements" Yeah, let him freeze bullets again. That will restore him to his former glory imo. 

"Excalibur desperately needs a buff" And yet his exalted blade > Iron staff. And he can still spam radial javelin in certain map layouts with superb effectiveness

"Loki rework" And yet I know others who will say he's great and use him regularly for all kinds of content

"Nekros needs a rework". His army of the dead is decent when enemy levels are decent enough, plus LOOT.

"Titania deserve something" They already gave her somethings. And before they did. I have used her myself and I find her fun.

"With Ivara prime on the horizon..." She's fine. She's queen of spy, riven challenges, fishing, and conservation. Literally the best at these. Don't need to make her be master at all things, because that inevitably results her in getting nerfed at the things she's very good at now. 

"Bring banshee back to her former glory" Yeah ok give her back resonating quake

"Squishy frames have no place in future content" Quick thinking. Hunter adrenaline. Arcanes. Adaptation. Radial nukes and CC to prevent enemies from getting close enough to shoot them

"Zephyr tweaks..." her floatiness might need adjustment, and her tornado perhaps. Give some synergy between altitude and radial melee slam would be cool too. But no overhauls really needed

"Nerf request: Wukong twin" Nah. AI isn't that strong to begin with. At most, make Wuclone do a sleeping / meditating gesture  if Human player sleeps (no button input after 30s or so). That would be funny

"Why killing wukong and his staff" Maybe melee 2.9999 oversight. Maybe not. 

"About wisp walking in melee mode" Should be in animation feedback forums imo.

"Chroma rework" The eidolon master killer doesn't need a rework

"Beast companion..." Wrong forum

"Mag's pull should not drag enemies out of magnetize" Seconded.

"Vauban deployed ball counter' Good idea.

 

 

funny, I was not mentioned any frames..but at all you are right some are fine with just their skills and some still not

 

but about squishy frames about which is mainly problem here

you mentioned quick thinking and other mods..right..but you know these would be fine ion squishy frames if used all at once with some to also more health, shields etc...

what I tried while playing on nyx...arcane guarian all the time....I dont even feel it working alone...before I get chance of proc of it with hard hit this hill will just 1shot me before proc of this arcane...this arcane is good only while you are getting nonstop hits but not lethal to be able to tank them more..literally same goes with adaptation..you need to get it proced, stacked before....if you havnt been hitted before and suddenly hard enemy will shot at you hard hit....you are welcome, you are still 1shotted at all, adaptationw ith guardian at aonce didnt save you...as it was mentioned many times..things like adaptation is great boos for already tankly frames, on squishy frames you have no time to get any use of this.

quick thinking...as for me most usefull mod for survive on squishy warframe...but still...there can be to much damage from single hits on average enemies on high lvls...take example from kuva hyeka o how its called....while on kuva flood mission, summoner of kavats :v ....when it start burning with his ignis I will say only how from full health and shields (umbral vitality mod with intenstity to boost these sets so better EFH than using mod for shields) and at the end my energ from max - 637 - is stopping at 150 +- with ofc stagger from qt mod after saved life...and what now? Im left with almost no energy at all and if there are more enemies around they will just finish me without chance to even go fast into operator to heal my frame

and wait now for even more harder enemies like additional bombards or heavy gunners....with bombards my qt mod wont even proc to use...I will instantly go into downed state

 

and no, Im not gonna use all of survivability mods at once...I already struggle with mods for my skills...like I needed to sacriface range and efficieny

 

these mods you mentioned...for squishy frames are only bandaid and not even for high lvls and we would need to use all of them at once to make any use of these things to help us to survive on squishy frames if we cant survive by our frame abilities

 

now for real...are you gonna to take atleast 4 slots for defensive mods if not more and arcane only to be able to survive normally on squishy frames and what is going with it..sacrificing big chunk of power to you abilities to make them very weaker or even unusable only to be able to survive like any other better, tankly frame which still have its full power for abilities to use?

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4 hours ago, Redwyrm said:

And if someone for some reason still would prefer old way abilities works - they can keep using those.

And what I'm saying is that is literally not an option. 

Some examples:

  1. Vauban's Trip Laser - It was a waste of space, and was inferior to all of his other cc in every possible way. Having the option to go back to it would be pointless since it would be a clear downgrade.
  2. Ember's WoF - This violated the way DE wanted the game to be played and they've explicitly stated as such. Going back to it is not optional since, by it's entire design, it was considered exploitable. 

Having multiple options for abilities is a great idea, but each of them must be balanced and effective in their own right. That being the case entirely defeats the purpose of having augments in place of reworks entirely. There's also 2 other issues with it. First, having all the free augment slots is just pure power creep (although DE has been breaking the limits of power creep for the last couple years so...who knows?). Second, like every other mechanic in this game it will not create diversity and "choice" as intended. A vast majority of players will flock to whichever combination of those ability versions is the most powerful and everything else will be 99% disregarded or relegated to the position of niche use.

Again, DE does not rework things because they want to spend all of that money and development hours for the heck of it. It's done out of necessity. The only efficient way for them to rework is put more effort into testing before release to discover all the blatant design flaws that players identify in the first week of release. They don't have to specifically give players the abilities that players ask for, as long as the abilities are fun and effective. DE can always tweak numbers as necessary. Gauss's gauge was a nightmare when it came out but the took the feedback and shifted a decimal point and now he plays incredibly smoothly without being overpowered. Ember's Immolation has the same problem now, so it needs a tweak and possibly reorganizing some of the synergies and she'll be great.

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On 2019-12-08 at 11:01 AM, Redwyrm said:

2)Introduce unique skill-change mods. Some are already exist, like Banshee's Resonating Quake, and thus just have to be put into that directory. (needless to say that those mods also should no use capacity at all)

 

9 hours ago, Redwyrm said:

Nope, zero augment slots.

I might suggest reading more carefully before jumping to conclusions...

These are Augment slots. You have gone a long way around to describe Augments and dedicated slots to Augments. This is an explicit no from the devs and renaming them doesn't change that. Making every Augment into Exilus just turns that into a defacto Augment slot.

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8 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Many? I only see one - Nyx,

 And even then, it's a matter of taste. Some people enjoy her because she has less innate immortality / invincibility / killing power, therefore meaning more use of weapons and from the view of those who enjoy her, she requires more interactivity, and fun. 

As for the many other suggestions and requests for reworks that come up on the forums - honestly, none of those frames require anything much. Maybe some adjustments, not overhauls. Quick scroll at what's trending today: ...

 

Point again not even about reworking entire frames, but specific skills that no one uses. Even on popular warframes like Chroma, where ppl using only two of 4 skills.

And even for skills that ARE popular - it's always nice to have an alternative. Even if alternative not as powerful as original version of the skill, but done interestingly. Just to enhance gameplay for a while, trying something new.

  

1 hour ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

That would be major power creep and would not solve the problem anyway.

Firstly powercreed already exist, and DE largely don't want to do anything about it.

Secondly, it is not necessary powercreep, if skill actually completely changed, rather than "augmented". In comparison:

Excalibur's Chromatic Blade - empowers original version of skill

Banshee's Resonating Quake - completely changes how skill works, not enhancing original version of skill

  

1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

 

These are Augment slots. You have gone a long way around to describe Augments and dedicated slots to Augments. This is an explicit no from the devs and renaming them doesn't change that. Making every Augment into Exilus just turns that into a defacto Augment slot.

Except Resonating Quake de facto doesn't AUGMENT anything...

Imagine instead of having new "better" version of Wukong, devs would have you change old skills into new ones, but you would have to use original 8 warframe slots of that.

 

Plus we already have "extension" of slot systems. First devs compromised on how to make us use all those "useless" weapon slot, by giving us new weapon exilus slot, and setting all those "unused" mods as weapon exilus.

And then Parazon have additional slot (and surprise - without capacity!).

Devs surely realizing them selves there are an issues with overall skill system and mods. And i hardly even suggesting anything, new, rather extending ideas taht devs already using.

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15 minutes ago, Redwyrm said:

Except Resonating Quake de facto doesn't AUGMENT anything...

It's an Augment. Semantics will not make the idea a yes when it is currently a no.

16 minutes ago, Redwyrm said:

Imagine instead of having new "better" version of Wukong, devs would have you change old skills into new ones, but you would have to use original 8 warframe slots of that.

If they are going to go through the trouble of wholesale replacing a frame's ability, it will not be an optional thing. Would Ash's original BS still be an option? No. Would Mag's ability to nuke the current Corpus node and every other node on the map with a single press of 3? No.

Abilities aren't replaced just because. Creating 2 things to balance when there was 1 isn't a path to a more easily maintained system, quite the opposite.

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@Redwyrm The fact we had power creep in the past, does not mean we should continuously add more. We need progression to be horizontal not vertical. In addition, most augments add to the skills not change them. And more importantly, this is not a solution for frames that have issues. If a frame has a problem, it needs a fundamental solution, either through fixing its skills or stats. You cannot fix frames through augments.

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11 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

"Oberon - its totally useless" Uh no, that thing can solo eidolon hunts. Google before saying its bad

Being able to solo eidolons shouldn't be used as a measure of potency. Oberon has the most balanced kit in the game, from scaling damage to AoE, and mass, CC, healing, armor buffing and stripping.

11 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

"A Hydroid rework" Unnecessary. This guy is perfect for defense, interception, survival, LOOT.

He needs some tweaks, imo.

11 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

"Limbo improvements" Yeah, let him freeze bullets again. That will restore him to his former glory imo.

I completely forgot he used to be able to do that. I second this notion.

11 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

"Loki rework" And yet I know others who will say he's great and use him regularly for all kinds of content

I don't think people suggesting a rework for him necessarily think he's bad. Perhaps they want his kit to be tweaked or slightly updated. Like, I've seen posts that suggest making his 2 be castable while on the move, or some way to make Decoy useful. I don't have any right to say more about his kit, I think he's fine.

11 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

"Nekros needs a rework". His army of the dead is decent when enemy levels are decent enough, plus LOOT.

Soul punch could be made to be better, like having it execute low HP enemies or something.

11 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

"Bring banshee back to her former glory" Yeah ok give her back resonating quake

"Squishy frames have no place in future content" Quick thinking. Hunter adrenaline. Arcanes. Adaptation. Radial nukes and CC to prevent enemies from getting close enough to shoot them

These 2 are self-explanatory. The OPs probably don't know the game well enough to make fair assessment.

11 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

"Chroma rework" The eidolon master killer doesn't need a rework

Yeah, no. Chroma really does need some sort of rework. I haven't seen anyone use Spectral Scream and Effigy in more than 2 years. Cycling the element should be a necessity in his kit, and Effigy should be made mobile.

 

At the end of the day, it's mostly just changes to outdated abilities, requests for some additional effects where needed, but as it stands, all frames are relevant in at least some part of the game (and should be interchangeable, i.e. swapping a Frost to a Gara or Vauban in defense missions). I don't think there's a frame that's left unused (anymore).

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18 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Ember's WoF - This violated the way DE wanted the game to be played and they've explicitly stated as such. Going back to it is not optional since, by it's entire design, it was considered exploitable. 

I doubt they violated DE's intentions. They just made some players unhappy about perceived lack of interaction. We still have plenty that do WoF but with different aesthetic and have remained untouched for years.. And recently released Gauss actually can do the same thing with spamming 3. DE intends for us to enjoy stuff like this or else they won't keep making stuff like it. Some segments of the community just don't like it, but if DE really doesn't like it, then Gauss' third skill and Celestial Twins would not be a thing. I think a fix for this is to not nerf the frames, but to introduce modes and enemies that require a bit more multitasking. Thus the nuking powers handle the fodder enemies, while the player's attention to turned towards seeking and destroying priority targets, hacking consoles, protecting a very squishy defense objective with minimal room for error etc. Disruption is a decent step in this direction imo.

8 hours ago, Blexander said:

Being able to solo eidolons shouldn't be used as a measure of potency. Oberon has the most balanced kit in the game, from scaling damage to AoE, and mass, CC, healing, armor buffing and stripping.

He needs some tweaks, imo.

I completely forgot he used to be able to do that. I second this notion.

I don't think people suggesting a rework for him necessarily think he's bad. Perhaps they want his kit to be tweaked or slightly updated. Like, I've seen posts that suggest making his 2 be castable while on the move, or some way to make Decoy useful. I don't have any right to say more about his kit, I think he's fine.

Soul punch could be made to be better, like having it execute low HP enemies or something.

These 2 are self-explanatory. The OPs probably don't know the game well enough to make fair assessment.

Yeah, no. Chroma really does need some sort of rework. I haven't seen anyone use Spectral Scream and Effigy in more than 2 years. Cycling the element should be a necessity in his kit, and Effigy should be made mobile.

 

At the end of the day, it's mostly just changes to outdated abilities, requests for some additional effects where needed, but as it stands, all frames are relevant in at least some part of the game (and should be interchangeable, i.e. swapping a Frost to a Gara or Vauban in defense missions). I don't think there's a frame that's left unused (anymore).

So for Oberon, solo eidolon is a shorthand way of saying he's great in general for most content in current state. No need to go into details. Everything else - yes, those are tweaks. Including what you said for Chroma. I think in-mission elemental swapping should just be put into Spectral Scream. And buff Spectral Scream. Give it the range of Ignis. Tap 1 to blast the energy out. Press and hold 1 to change element. Agree with you on Effigy

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20 часов назад, Xepthrichros сказал:

~~all that stuff~~

Call me a rebel, but IMO no frames are bad if they're having their playground. Maybe instead of "gimme rework" we should ask about playgrounds for favourite frames.

Cuz Zephyr is infinitely better played nowadays in comparison to 2013 when all she had was grineer galleons.

Yet again, it's DE's domain of power to make sure each frame has approximately equal opportunities to play.

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5 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

I doubt they violated DE's intentions. They just made some players unhappy about perceived lack of interaction. We still have plenty that do WoF but with different aesthetic and have remained untouched for years.. And recently released Gauss actually can do the same thing with spamming 3. DE intends for us to enjoy stuff like this or else they won't keep making stuff like it. Some segments of the community just don't like it, but if DE really doesn't like it, then Gauss' third skill and Celestial Twins would not be a thing.

Actually DE explicitly stated that they were changing it because they don't support idle gameplay mechanics like that, so it directly violated their intentions. The other abilities that are similar tend to require a lot more work. Your issue is that you're not seeing beyond the "AoE damage over time" part of it. Mechanically, none of those are optimal passively simply by a single activation like it was.

  • Gauss' 3 - requires frequent recast and energy cost every time, even by your own admission. 
  • Equinox has to build up the damage through manual effort then manually release it, then reactivate it. It's only used idly in low level missions (which could still be addressed), but WoF was designed to exclusively be used that way (though less effectively at higher levels). They just didn't realize the implications with that design until later.
  • Gara requires tons of work to keep her Splinter Storm pumped up and active.

Honestly, if Celestial Twin and Excalibur's Umbra are an issue then expect them to be changed at some point (you know DE is slow to change these things, and often doesn't think them through before making exploitable abilities). I haven't personally seen an issue with them since I use Dread with my Wukong, and barely play Excalibur or Umbra beyond mastery exp.

5 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

introduce modes and enemies that require a bit more multitasking. Thus the nuking powers handle the fodder enemies, while the player's attention to turned towards seeking and destroying priority targets, hacking consoles, protecting a very squishy defense objective with minimal room for error etc. Disruption is a decent step in this direction imo.

I agree with this. I've actually suggested a few times that we need to rework enemies into categories to reinforce the various roles in this game. This would allow all abilities to be nearly as powerful as they could be without necessarily step on everyone else's toes. 

  • Make the typical "hoard" enemies of each faction work the same as they do now with damage nukes and aoe weapons, but make all other units heavily resist AoE damage. This would let nuke frames have their place to be as powerful as they want.
  • Have more enemies like Nox that require more specific handling like only being affected by single target damage, or headshots, etc.
  • Make enemies that nearly immune to damage when not under the effect of hard cc.
  • Create enemies that cause debuffs that can only be cleansed through Warframe healing abilities (and health orbs created from abilities like Nezha / Nekros).
  • Have enemies that deal heavy damage like Ballista or Bombard prioritize frames with active "tank" abilities (for example: Iron Skin, Scarab Armor, Splinter Storm, etc) and have those abilities take reduced damage from those type of attacks when near allies. This way those types of frames are actually working to the benefit of their allies rather than in spite of them like they do now.

Everyone will do their job, and have a purpose without being made obsolete in all content by the typical Nukers and Tanks. Content could be better balanced to encourage and reward role diversity rather than punishing it.

But...I don't expect DE to do that, so the current cycle will continue with "Release overpowered/underpowered thing, leave it broken for a couple years to force a new meta that is used to design all upcoming content around, go back and fix it, make the same mistake on next thing, repeat".

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40 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:
  • Make the typical "hoard" enemies of each faction work the same as they do now with damage nukes and aoe weapons, but make all other units heavily resist AoE damage. This would let nuke frames have their place to be as powerful as they want.
  • Have more enemies like Nox that require more specific handling like only being affected by single target damage, or headshots, etc.
  • Make enemies that nearly immune to damage when not under the effect of hard cc.
  • Create enemies that cause debuffs that can only be cleansed through Warframe healing abilities (and health orbs created from abilities like Nezha / Nekros).
  • Have enemies that deal heavy damage like Ballista or Bombard prioritize frames with active "tank" abilities (for example: Iron Skin, Scarab Armor, Splinter Storm, etc) and have those abilities take reduced damage from those type of attacks when near allies. This way those types of frames are actually working to the benefit of their allies rather than in spite of them like they do now.

Perfect.

 

40 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Actually DE explicitly stated that they were changing it because they don't support idle gameplay mechanics like that, so it directly violated their intentions. The other abilities that are similar tend to require a lot more work. Your issue is that you're not seeing beyond the "AoE damage over time" part of it. Mechanically, none of those are optimal passively simply by a single activation like it was.

The old WoF was complained against because it made low-level missions a walking simulator. There are many abilities that achieve WoF type damage at baseline too, even old Vauban Tesla spam can dominate a low-level defense map, and team mates and Vauban can twiddle their thumbs and watch the light show, if they wish, until the Tesla balls run out of batteries. And then the additional mechanics (like the Equinox you mentioned) go above and beyond that to handle tankier targets. WoF could go beyond and help with high level targets if the Ember actively uses Accelerant etc. and the Firequake augment. In the discussion about low-level enemies, literally the entire roster except Nyx has to be nerfed to the ground because many frames can 1) decimate the entire map 2) hide in invisibility, immortality, EHP etc, and leave all 4 players with little interaction for the duration of the ability or until energy runs out if channeled, and thus they all enable "idle gameplay mechanics" and therefore "violated their intentions". So again, I do not think it is about their intentions for the abilities, regardless of what is explicitly said, as actions are louder than words. Actions indicate introduction of reworks and new frames that still can deal more than enough AOE damage and make it idle gameplay for the rest and even the caster himself or herself in a low-level mission (of course in high level missions, these new frames have varying degrees of mileage). So they do intend us to be powerful, and when we are not powerful, people start complaining XYZ is not viable, or killing 5 seconds slower than they were used to.

The fix to idling is something we got to figure out ourselves until DE gives us more content that involves all the powers and roles of Warframes (content like what you suggested above) - like maybe run faster than the team's nuker so we can reach the next area and kill our share of stuff and get interactivity, or just choose a game mode that is more involving, like Disruption, or play a mission with higher-level enemies and let the level scaling phase out a certain number of AOE nukers whose damage type or numbers make them less insta-kill-ish at those levels. Low level missions will always be trivial. This comes with the RPG-level-up style mechanic that warframe has adopted with the mods system, and the fact enemies have levels and that the word "levels" is even in the conversation. Or switch from public matchmaking to recruiting. The nerfs overall is just about which got the most complaints, or which one is reported in their excel sheet as overused. If the true intention was really to prevent idle-type gameplay entirely, many ideas would not have made it pass the pitch meeting.

Edited by Xepthrichros
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13 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

The old WoF was complained against because it made low-level missions a walking simulator. There are many abilities that achieve WoF type damage at baseline too, even old Vauban Tesla spam can dominate a low-level defense map, and team mates and Vauban can twiddle their thumbs and watch the light show, if they wish, until the Tesla balls run out of batteries.

Well, the low-level aspect wasn't the extent of the issue and wasn't why DE changed the ability. They said it was because of the idle gameplay design. It was honestly a bad ability at every level. Accelerant was her bread and butter and anyone that used it well knows you could easily run all of the "end-game" content built for that alone. I've used her for years and I can literally say I've used WoF for less than 10 toggled minutes of that time. They did end up reworking Tesla, so I guess that checks another one off the list. lol

18 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

 And then the additional mechanics (like the Equinox you mentioned)

I've recommended in the past that the initial bleed proc from proximity be changed to a puncture proc. This would reduce the damage enemies can deal to you within your personal bubble until you have the chance to actively kill them and it removes any possibility of passive killing at all levels. People didn't take that suggestion too well though. Hehe

37 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

In the discussion about low-level enemies, literally the entire roster except Nyx has to be nerfed to the ground because many frames can 1) decimate the entire map 2) hide in invisibility, immortality, EHP etc, and leave all 4 players with little interaction for the duration of the ability or until energy runs out if channeled, and thus they all enable "idle gameplay mechanics" and therefore "violated their intentions". So again, I do not think it is about their intentions for the abilities, regardless of what is explicitly said, as actions are louder than words.

Which is why I've repeatedly said that it was never about the low-level clearing potential. You keep saying that, not me. lol 

It's about idle gameplay abilities, which is what they explicitly stated, ones that don't require any additional input or only require minimal effort. I'd actually love for them to finally replace or rework Nyx's Absorb since in its base state it does...literally nothing. You can't even play when using it if you wanted to, and it can't kill so all you get is an afk button to go to the bathroom while trying to build up your weapon damage buff from it. But that's another issue.

42 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

The fix to idling is something we got to figure out ourselves until DE gives us more content that involves all the powers and roles of Warframes (content like what you suggested above) - like maybe run faster than the team's nuker so we can reach the next area and kill our share of stuff and get interactivity, or just choose a game mode that is more involving, like Disruption, or play a mission with higher-level enemies and let the level scaling phase out a certain number of AOE nukers whose damage type or numbers make them less insta-kill-ish at those levels. Low level missions will always be trivial. This comes with the RPG-level-up style mechanic that warframe has adopted with the mods system, and the fact enemies have levels and that the word "levels" is even in the conversation. Or switch from public matchmaking to recruiting. The nerfs overall is just about which got the most complaints, or which one is reported in their excel sheet as overused. If the true intention was really to prevent idle-type gameplay entirely, many ideas would not have made it pass the pitch meeting.

I can almost always beat the nukers in speed, but some frames are just slow. So, I shouldn't have to pick my frame or mission type specifically to avoid other players frequently exploiting poor design. Otherwise why even have other frames or content? They have all the power when you have to plan around them, which then pushes you into specific loadouts to accommodate them which then eliminates all diversity in the game. This has lead to the current trend of speed/nuke/defense frames being the only ones considered viable for any content.

Unfortunately the community or individuals don't have much say in the matter when it comes to these issues. The nature of this game means DE constantly forces us back to old content and all variety of missions frequently for additional resources or new items. So all we can do is hold our breath hoping the overlords play their own game enough and fix things systemically rather than continuing to stick gum in all of the holes in the dam on the verge of breaking. lol

I know it's hard for them because they're not a AAA studio, and they are constantly fighting deadlines to keep content flowing for new income but without systemic overhauls there is no chance of a light at the end of the tunnel for some of the major issues that come up with every single new frame/weapon/mission that are released that typically come back down to poor balance in either direction. I'm sure it's more costly in the long run to be guaranteed to have complete reworks on everything they release forever rather than a few major changes that can pretty much streamline design choices from that point on.

 

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18 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

It's about idle gameplay abilities, which is what they explicitly stated, ones that don't require any additional input or only require minimal effort. I'd actually love for them to finally replace or rework Nyx's Absorb since in its base state it does...literally nothing. You can't even play when using it if you wanted to, and it can't kill so all you get is an afk button to go to the bathroom while trying to build up your weapon damage buff from it. But that's another issue.

And it is this that I mainly disagree with you on and doubt. I do not believe, regardless of explicit statements, what they say concerning so-called "idle" abilities, because we have plenty that enable "idleness" at low levels, of which WoF was part of that list. And WoF was not as idle in high levels cos it became more CC with Firequake than DPS. And even without DPS-type powers, there is still quite a bunch that enable idleness at almost all levels. (the immortal frames, strong CC, etc.)

My only point is WoF was nerfed due to complaints and people who misunderstood the design the of game, not due to "unintended idle gameplay". I think the general direction of warframe design is to make us feel strong. And also have a sense of power progression to justify grinding and RPG mechanics.  As long as RPG/level up type things exist, we will reach a point where we overlevel stuff and anything below our level is so trivial we can idle through it. And I am not against RPG/level up mechanics because if there isn't such mechanics, then farming anything is pointless. Why farm and invest leveling up currencies (like Endo) if there's no significant power changes (be it DPS or tankiness etc.)?

As an aside, new Vauban's Flechette is old Tesla but even better. So no difference. I enjoy Vauban now more too. Not to intentionally idle, but the theme of setting up an area full of turrets and death-bringing balls. And that he's lowkey batman.

18 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Unfortunately the community or individuals don't have much say in the matter when it comes to these issues. The nature of this game means DE constantly forces us back to old content and all variety of missions frequently for additional resources or new items. So all we can do is hold our breath hoping the overlords play their own game enough and fix things systemically rather than continuing to stick gum in all of the holes in the dam on the verge of breaking. lol

I know it's hard for them because they're not a AAA studio, and they are constantly fighting deadlines to keep content flowing for new income but without systemic overhauls there is no chance of a light at the end of the tunnel for some of the major issues that come up with every single new frame/weapon/mission that are released that typically come back down to poor balance in either direction. I'm sure it's more costly in the long run to be guaranteed to have complete reworks on everything they release forever rather than a few major changes that can pretty much streamline design choices from that point on.

 

Tbh I think the "hectic" nature of railjack (as described by some people) might be part of DE's attempts to justify the powers that allow for idling in other less hectic contexts. Ain't nobody got time to shoot enemy boarding parties when there's fires to put out and missiles to craft for the ship. Lol. Let the abilities handle those while we pilot / fix the ship that's coming apart at the seams.

 

Edited by Xepthrichros
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2 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

I do not believe, regardless of explicit statements, what they say concerning so-called "idle" abilities

Well, believe what you will. It has absolutely no bearing on DE's actions on the matter. This has become so derailed from the original point and focused on semantics. 

Not reworking the things that have been reworked is not an option. DE has stated that they are fully against a dedicated augment slot and the OP is asking for ALL of the dedicated augment slots. Lol In the end, this method will not fix anything. It will just create a new meta on what the "right" configuration of augments is and leave newer players in the dirt by forcing them to continue using the original broken ability until they can get the mandatory augment from the syndicates. Even now we already have "mandatory" augments needed to fix certain abilities so this new system will not change that, it just takes the augments out of our normal slots...so just rework them and skip the extra crap.

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On 2019-12-09 at 9:36 AM, Xepthrichros said:

This guy is perfect for defense, interception, survival, LOOT

Hydroid is boring. Very boring and very outdated. 

The only reason he hasn’t sunk to the level of completely useless is because of the loot augment. Without that augment, he is simply terrible in all the worst ways.

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