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Zaro's Railjack Concerns: DE Made It More Costly To Own A Railjack So Leeching Off Those Who Own One Might Be Better


Gabbynaru
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Preface: These are not my views or concerns on the matter, they are my clan leader's. However, whether I agree or disagree with the views does not matter in this context, as they are still valid concerns that should be out there, just in case DE might hear them. If you feel like aggressively disagreeing with his sentiments, please do not shoot the messenger, instead aim your arrows towards Zarozian... whenever he gets unbanned. Thank you for understanding!

Now unto the main dish:

“Your Railjack will actually consume resources in order to operate. You need to craft munitions and other things out of the new 4 RJ quest resources to do some stuff. So how's it going to be if you go public? Are other players spending your own farmed resources if you're hosting, or does it take resources from the player crafting the item?

1) If it uses your own resources, how comfortable are you letting other people use what you have farmed? How can you stop trolls from intentionally wasting your resources?

2) If it uses crew player resources, what if they refuse to share them for the mission or if they were careless and didn't farm and come prepared?

3) If the only player able to craft munitions is the owner of the Railjack, you now have to move all the way back and forth between opposite ends of the ship for piloting and crafting, or delegate piloting to another player (Which can now troll by veering the ship away or intentionally towards gunfire).

That's on top of possible trolls who will dance or play Shazwim in the middle of a deck fire and will refuse to follow their orders or handle their given tasks because "You can't tell them what to do" even though it is your Railjack, which you crafted with your own resources in order to host and they contributed absolutely nothing in order to build it.”

Thank you for your time!

Edited by Gabbynaru
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I believe they meant "resources" in the terms of repairs, munitions and energy supplies which, obviously, require resources to craft, either on-site or prior to mission launch. But... I agree, if they're using your own resources, it would be best to team up with people who won't be idiots about it.

Given that others during the devstream were using the Forges in the back, I doubt the crafting aspect is owner-only.

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The resource costs aren't much of a barrier, imo.

It's the 12-hour gates between each of the 6 pieces that deters people from bothering.

I'm not worried about the resource costs for ammunition until we have the live version in our hands. No reason to judge a dev build that harshly.

It sounds to me, though, what you're most concerned with is players trolling in co-op content, not anything specific to Railjack. This is indeed a concern for ANY content in ANY game that requires teamwork to succeed.

If you're that worried, wait until live to see if people are really that terrible in the groups. If they are, wait for the Command skill and just focus on solo play, like we do in all the rest of Warframe content.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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17 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

The resource costs aren't much of a barrier, imo.

It's the 12-hour gates between each of the 6 pieces that deters people from bothering.

The 6 million credits are also a pain without a credit booster, and I say that as somebody who farmed 4.5 million with no booster (lucked out with Baro for the last 1.5).

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5 hours ago, Aldain said:

The 6 million credits are also a pain without a credit booster, and I say that as somebody who farmed 4.5 million with no booster (lucked out with Baro for the last 1.5).

Not really. I just ran the Index a couple times in a row. 4-5 runs through, and boom, enough credits for the next gate. Since I have to wait 12 hours anyways, I had nothing better to do.

Yeah, it gets dull to roflstomp the first round of Index over and over, but it gets ya what you need.

  

5 hours ago, Sleepy51 said:

But the leechers they probably would be a problem that some f the community would make a allience or smthing to avoid them idk

I'm not convinced that leechers will be a problem. In my experience, the problem in regular Defense or Interception maps is that one or two people end up doing ALL the damage because there's only so many targets, and it's entirely possible they simply have a better loadout than you. If someone is doing a much much better job than you of killing enemies, eventually you feel worthless enough to just... let them do it. Because clearly they won't let YOU get any kills.

I don't think that's going to be an issue with Railjack's design, but we'll see.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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34 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Not really. I just ran the Index a couple times in a row. 4-5 runs through, and boom, enough credits for the next gate. Since I have to wait 12 hours anyways, I had nothing better to do.

Yeah, it gets dull to roflstomp the first round of Index over and over, but it gets ya what you need.

It kind of was even worse on Switch, finding players for Index grinding was like finding needles in haystacks.

But I agree it isn't hard, just INSANELY irritating.

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1 minute ago, DrakeWurrum said:

You do Index with other people? Ew. I just solo it with Rhino and my crit-built Fragor Prime.

If I do it alone it bores me to tears, at least with other people I have something to watch that is slightly more interesting than the A.I. while I form a galaxy of points.

Also it goes a bit quicker, at least assuming everyone knows what to do...or at least what to not do.

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On 2019-12-09 at 3:39 PM, Gabbynaru said:

That's on top of possible trolls who will dance or play Shazwim in the middle of a deck fire and will refuse to follow their orders or handle their given tasks because "You can't tell them what to do" even though it is your Railjack, which you crafted with your own resources in order to host and they contributed absolutely nothing in order to build it.”

I'm hoping that this will be less of an issue, because of the actual risk of failing the mission. 

Let's face it. The way things stand with most of the game, a single player can reasonably dominate the mission, and carry the whole squad. We've all seen it and most of us here have probably done it too. 

DE has told us that while possible to do aolo, it's unlikely that we will be soloing with ease. Failure is a real risk, and that means that we all lose, if someone decides that they are not going to be a team player. 

For a change, everyone is going to have a real, vested interest in completing the mission goals. We'll also have a real reason to record and report the people who are sabotaging our game. 

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16 hours ago, Aldain said:

If I do it alone it bores me to tears, at least with other people I have something to watch that is slightly more interesting than the A.I. while I form a galaxy of points.

Also it goes a bit quicker, at least assuming everyone knows what to do...or at least what to not do.

I dislike doing it solo cause of spectres... I wish it could just be you vs all of them.

Why isn't there an option to enable/disable specters?

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I agree with the OP's concerns. I see a couple of problems here.

First of all, spending resources for routine Railjack operations brings us dangerously close to World of Tanks territory, where the grind us OPPRESSIVE due to how easy it is to spend more Credits on repairs, ammo and consumables than you actually earn during the battle, especially considering it's those same credits that you use for upgrades and progression. That near-constant backsliding progression is a large part of the reason I stopped playing that game altogether (P2W in a PvP game didn't help). DE's push towards what they call "sustainable rewards" and I call "rentals, consumables, upkeep" is frighteningly concerning to me, because this is the realm of scam F2P titles and Chinese knockoff mobile games. It's grind masquerading as content - something Warframe has a fundamental issue with.

Secondly, Railjack is an inherently multiplayer experience so some form of shared resource mechanic would need to exist, though I don't know what kind. You CANNOT allow random pubbies to use the Host's resources without permission, this much is clear. However, requiring individual players to build with just their own resources creates an untennable game of Telephone as the crew has to figure out who has enough gorilla glue and wood staples or whatever to build that torpedo the team desperately needs. As team-centric as DE want Railjack to be, we can't expect most teams will have communication on quite that level.

The only way I can figure this working is through what Titanfall 2 used for Frontier Defence. That is to say, the Railjack would have something like a Clan Vault. All resources picked up during the mission would go in that vault and be used from there, but players would further be able to contribute resources from their own inventories by choice. At the end of the mission, everyone gets a copy of all the resources in the Railjack Vault - whatever's left of them. That way players can choose to commit only as much in the way of resources as they feel comfortable while still allowing a single player to craft with the shared pool of resources.

This is probably something DE should have addressed during the Dev Stream, though there it seemed like every player crafted with their own resources.

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There was a video put up in one of these threads today that showed a player maxing out all of the buildable ammo prior to boarding the railjack to go on the mission so randoms will indeed be able to waste your resources anytime they want and if you dont go in prepared with stuff built you will run the risk that you wont get enough specific drops to craft what you need when you need it. One top of that you probably wont know if you have a troll looking to waste resources until after your already in mission with a hold full of valuable ammo. Its going to be a little like BDO was before the ocean rework where you had to buy cannonballs and load them on the ship but any players above a certain level could fire the cannons and waste ammo, big difference is that things like Pustrels are annoying to get and require you to go mine every single time you want to craft a full complement of supplies.

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First of all, thank you all for your replies! Great hearing different point of views, especially in a civilized manner like this one.

Now, I saw Rock, Paper, Shotgun's video on Empyrean today and they mention in it how you can actually make those items prior to the mission, and just go in having them, which gives further credence to the idea of leeching. So, I might have to think about my stance a bit more, as Zaro seemed to be onto something here.

Still, as I told him before, I'm not entirely sure it's something that worrying, as it looks like Empyrean's resources will only be used in their own ecosystem, and, should DE allow for generous drops of these resources mid-mission (I'm pretty sure they won't, but just amuse me here), it might not be something anyone will notice, unless you want to stockpile on them. On that note, as seen in the aforementioned video, Earth has a free flight node, which, if DE is smart, could be used as farming grounds in order to alleviate these concerns.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see on that one. Still, feel free to discuss, if  you've noticed anything new in all the PR material that was released today.

Thank you for your time!

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Don't forget "It's not a battle, it's a war!". A war on our nerves... farming to participate in a sub-par, clumsy space shooter is not my idea of fun.

Boykott the farming and leech the eff out of Railjack. DE isn't the best listener but they watch statistics. I'm not going to fish in order to fly.

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14 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Still, as I told him before, I'm not entirely sure it's something that worrying, as it looks like Empyrean's resources will only be used in their own ecosystem, and, should DE allow for generous drops of these resources mid-mission (I'm pretty sure they won't, but just amuse me here), it might not be something anyone will notice, unless you want to stockpile on them. On that note, as seen in the aforementioned video, Earth has a free flight node, which, if DE is smart, could be used as farming grounds in order to alleviate these concerns.

That's kind of the Catch 22, though. The same resources used for fuel, ammo and repairs mid-mission are the resources used for upgrades in general. What that means is A) dumb team-mates can end up crafting, wasting and then recrafting supplies thereby hobbling your progression speed and B) players are disincentivised from crafting in-mission because that cuts into their progression. Imagine you had to pay in Credits for every single bullet you fired out of your guns. No ammo boxes drop in missions, you have to craft them as you go and all resources are shared with your team-mates. Now imagine someone on your team brought a Kohm.

Sure, those concerns would only be valid if said resources were truly abundant enough that there's a genuine danger of using more of them than you pick up. I mean, nobody really cares for the cost of Team Restores, after all. Here, however, is where DE's recent actions having eroded my trust in their good-faith design decisions comes in. No, I can't really humour you on the notion of Railjack resources being "plentiful" because nothing in Warframe is ever plentiful unless it's at least a few years old. Their MO is to release content as a MASSIVE HORRIBLE GRIND just to see how far they can push people and how many they can get to pay money for it... No, sorry, I said that wrong... Just to gather data and find a more proper progression rate. Having seen Kuva Liches, does anyone genuinely even entertain the idea that Railjack progression speed would be anything short of glacial? Potentially Focus-level glacial.

If I may look into the future through my third eye, I foresee a "permissions" system implemented into the Railjack fairly quickly, where the host/owner can choose who has crafting privileges and who doesn't. Maybe this can be restricted to clan-mates or friends only, maybe a minimum Engineering requirement can be placed (that'll likely be a thing anyway) or some such, but I fully expect to see calls for choosing who can use "my" resources during a Railjack mission.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Outside of railjack - Leeching or afk'ing has been a biiiiiiiiiiig issue for DE which they have never addressed for the last few years. I spent a few hours doing void missions and i honestly just give up. 

I watched a guy go afk during a survival mission. he'd go AFK then come back, run around some, kill a few things then find some gap in the floor to hide in where he could go afk again for a few mins while the rest of the team farmed up the reactant.

When i called him out again his excuse was that he needed to use the restroom - I mean ok. If you really need to go then go. but this guy was only coming back and killing a few things to make himself look like he was doing something before he was going afk again. There was no 'brb. toilet' in chat.

Why couldnt he of just gone during the short intermission after every 5 rounds is beyond me.

I have read countless numbers of threads from players asking DE to put some sort of system in place where folks can report players for behaviour such as leeching/griefing etc etc but apparently DE dont want to put one in because they dont want to have to deal with people abusing it. But at the same time - We, the players shouldnt have to be dealing with players like these either.

 

I feel your pain. I wish DE would do something but DE have their head in the sand and refuse to act even when they know of the issue.

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