Ash Revisted Revisted concept 2.0

[ES-Flinter]

Ash is probably one of the most discussed warframes if it goes about, if he needs a rework, or just a few qol-changes. The main problem seems to be, is that Ash can do over 3 hours run without even starting to sweat. However, there is also the problem, that Ash has no synergy in his kit. In addition, it can’t be forgotten that killing is the only thing he is good at. Sure, some people will say, that Ash brings the needed DPS. But in the end, our shooting, toxic and music girls will always be more loved, because they can do the same, but in a much bigger range. (Also more friendly for controller players.)

Truth to be told, Ash is now not better than the old Vauban was. Except that, he is until now in the Meta. However, for Ash it was more luck than skill.

In this concept, Ash gets a complete new passive and fourth ability. My goal was to give Ash a bigger damage range and letting him grow with the enemy level, without changing his concentrate damage dealer role.

Stats.

Spoiler

	Ash		Ash Prime
Level	0	30	0	30
Shield	75	225	100	300
Life	75	225	100	300
Armor	65	65	75	75
Energy	125	187,5	150	225
Sprint speed	1,25	1,25	1,30	1,30

For the one or other it sounds maybe strange that I want to change his stats so drastically. But his stats. are one the main problem for me, why he can’t reach his true potential. If Ash can turn invisible, why do he need so much shield, armor and health? Shouldn’t Ash be the first one to execute the problematic enemy with the poison aura, before it get even the chance to somehow hurt him or others?

Passive skill: Blood pool

Spoiler

• Every time an enemy gets damages by a blood tick (resulting from an Ash inflicted blood proc.) Ash gets one blood point. (Kind of like Nidus passive.) With the help of blood point’s Ash can activate his blood skill, which are different or even stronger variations of his normal abilities. Ash can activate his blood skills by holding the ability button.

• Blood tics increase the melee combo multiplier.

Ash inflicted blood procs, before Garuda. Therefore, he should have the possibility to make use of them.

 

The combo increasing blood tics are for keeping ash in “control”. If his combo multiplier wouldn’t rise fast enough he would just become a second Saryn.

First skill: Shuriken

Spoiler

Ash throws one or more targeting Shuriken. The Shuriken has a 100% chance to inflict a bleed proc. Holding the ability button and turning the mouse wheel allows Ash to choose between three different shuriken kinds.

Energy cost: 25

Activating the blood skill double the damage and allows the shuriken to explode on impact.

Shuriken kinds (blood points cost: 25 [not affected by mods])

• (normal) Shuriken: The two normal shuriken we all know (and love.) Now with the addition to reduce the enemy running speed and an improving targeting system (hopefully).

  • Damage: 500/ Shuriken

  • Running speed reduction: 75%

  • Duration: Until the enemy is free of all of its bleed procs.

  • Blood skill explosion radius: 2,5m

• Mini-Shuriken: Ash throws ten small Shuriken at once

  • Damage: 50 /Shuriken

  • Blood skill explosion radius: 0,25 m

• Mega-Shuriken: Ash throws a gigantic Shuriken forward, which stuns and opens the enemy for finishers.

  • Damage: 1000

  • Stun duration: 7,5 seconds

  • Blood skill explosion radius: 5 m

The first ability turns into a catalyst to increase the amount of blood points. Nothing to say much.

 

Second skill: Smoke screen

Spoiler

 

Ash throws a smoke bomb to turn himself invisible, stuns enemies and open them for fiinsher.

• Energy cost: 50
• Invisibility duration: 10 seconds
• Stun duration: 5 seconds
• Stun radius: 10 m

 

Blood skill: Ash throws a smoke bomb, which create a big smoke cloud. Allies inside the cloud becomes invisible for the enemies and gets the “scanner view”. The los for enemies inside the cloud will be reduced. Enemies outside of the cloud cannot see inside it (except the cloud is smaller than the los reduction.)

• Blood point cost: 50 (not affected by mods)

• Smoke Cloud radius: 15 m

• Enemies los reduction: 5 m (not affected by mods)

 

What should I say to it? The normal ability stays to 90% normal and the blood skill variant is just a big smoke bomb. In the end, it is that what someone would expect from the ability name.

Third skill: Teleport

Spoiler

 

Ash teleport himself to a chosen place (no target needed; No front flip animation). Enemies in the near of the teleportation target will be stunned and opened for a finisher. Charge attacks (melee, Bows, …) will not be interrupted.

• Energy cost: 10
• Teleportation range: 60 m
• Stun radius: 5 m
• Stun duration: 10 seconds

Blood skill: Ash sends now a shadow clone, which make the stealth attack on the chosen enemy. As long as the ability button will be hold, Ash is able to mark more enemies at once. All enemies will be attack at once.

• Blood point cost: 10/ target (not affected by mods)
• Stun Radius: none (/ only the chosen targets)

   

Yeah, Bladestorm becomes a part of Teleport. In my eyes, the difference between the two abilities was always too small to make two abilities of it. Also attacking all enemies at once isn’t so broken, if you things about, that one enemy cost 10 blood points.

 

Fourth skill: Hidden blades

Spoiler

 

Ash use his own hidden blades to attack his enemies. (New exilus weapon.) The blades inflict true damage (ignore damage mitigation abilities from Nox/ Juggernout/ …). The blade share the melee combo multiplier with the “normal” melee weapon.

• Energy cost
  • Activation: 0
  • Channeling cost: 0/ second
  • Energy cost per hit: 2
• Weapon stats.:
  • -  depends in the end on the animations -
  • Weapon range: 2 m (affected by melee mods)

Blood skill: Ash increase the attack range of his weapon to attack even more enemies at once. The defense ignoring effects will not be increased.

• Blood point cost
  • Activation: 0
  • Channeling cost: 40/ second
  • Energy cost per hit: 0
• Weapon range: 15 m (affected by melee and Warframe mods)

15 m melee range sound pretty dam broken. Especially if you think about, that you can easily increase it to around 48 m. To good that this is also his biggest weakness. If he use it, he will probably one hit every enemy. And an enemy who dies in one hit can’t donate bloodpoints. Also keeping the 40 blood tics per second will be almost impossible. Maybe if you fight against level XXXXX enemies you can do it endlessly. But I think it should be allowed, if a Warframe can use it's full power after YY hours survival.

 

That was it, thank you for reading. If you didn’t liked my ideas please tell me. And if you did liked it. Please tell me why. ^^

Edited December 9, 2019 by ES-Flinter
Formating problems

[BasKy]

Hi
I think Ash only needs changes to Shuriken, Teleport, and his synergy overall, so you are changing things I belive don't need changing. But you asked for opinions so here it is. There's a TL;DR for other people at the end.

You made him too squishy and raised his energy. I guess his energy makes sense because you need to spam Shuriken more often to raise the Blood Pool, did I get that right? But don't lower his already low armor, his health needs no change either. I understand now he has a bigger pool to spam invisibility and a better Smoke Screen, but he is forced to be permanently invisible wich is no fun.

I understand you don't like Bladestorm, but please do NOT make it another exalted weapon. It's like bringing two melee weapons. Don't care if it's strong, it's boring and unoriginal. Smash melee brainless?. No thanks. I hope DE is done with exalted weapons.

Blood Passive

Spoiler

You only get stacks and combo counter with skills right? Otherwise you will be at full stacks and combo all the time with some weapons.

You did a very interesting thing with Bladestorm (now Teleport Blood version) and his passive. If you get stacks of blood using Shuriken, it encourages the use of an otherwise useless skill (not so useless in your revisit). The new bladestorm could be energy free because you are using the stacks you got from using Shuriken. You still can't spam it depending on the blood stacks cap.
I don't want Ash to be a spam Shuriken to get Blood Stacks>Use Bladestorm. But it's an interesting idea.

If some skills use Blood Stacks instead of energy, it will help those skills to not be outclassed. For example, in current Ash I would use Teleport more often to kill if it used Blood Stacks instead of energy. And the people that prefer Teleport over Bladestorm would do the same if Bladestorm was the energy free skill (but used Blood Stacks). Needs balance touches and testing, but it could work, at least for a different new frame.

Shuriken

Spoiler

I'm not sure. Your first Shuriken brings a bit of CC. I would like something that brings more damage. I could use your Shuriken skill if an angry Nox is coming my way and I don't want to kill him for some reason / my gun doesn't have the necessary damage to kill him fast, I can't risk getting close because I'm low on health, and I don't have or don't want to use my Blood stacks for the new Bladestorm.

Mini-Shuriken sounds good on low level only. If the explosion brings CC then it's good ol' AoE CC, wich is good, but as I said I preffer damage for Ash. Why? Because that's Ash's job. Let your squadmates apply CC. That is my oipinion and it's tied to a very different subject that is: what is the balance level we want in this game? For example: If you think Saryn is balanced, then Ash is a weakling that needs buffs. I like the balance level of Ash, meaning Saryn needs nerfing.

Mega Shuriken seems outclased by the new teleport with that whooping 10 energy. That 1000 damage won't fall as fast as the previous, but the finisher is simply outclased. I prefer to teleport and save 15 energy.
Now if instead of energy, Mega Shuriken used Blood Stacks...

Smoke Screen

Spoiler

Stun sounds reliable. Stagger or a blind goes better with "Smoke" (just saying).

It makes sense that you increased his duration in your squishy Ash, honestly I don't think it's necessary if you don't touch his stats.
I see you increased the energy cost, is it because of the stun? I prefer the normal stagger effect if that means it stays 35 energy.

It's kind of a side grade if you keep in mind you changed his stats. It may be 2s longer, but you also need to be invisible because you have less armor and health. It costs more, but you have a larger energy pool. The CC is the real buff if you actually need it.

Teleport
 

Spoiler

10 Energy might be a bit low don't you think? But the changes are good. I wouldn't mind a different, short animation. The flip is painfully long especially when used for finishers.

Holding a button to mark severly hurts your mobility. Maybe hold to enter the "bladetorm mark phase", and press again to execute the targets. The marking process is slower than the current Bladestorm, It's acceptable because it leaves space for a different skill.
The clones killing all enemies at once is a no from me. That's a nuke (you didn't talk about the damage tho).

Hidden Blades

Spoiler

The experience an exalted weapon and a normal melee weapon gives is exactly the same. I don't want exalted weapons never ever. Peacemaker is an exception because it does not work like a normal weapon, it might need a nerf to it's numbers but I like it. Smashing a button to kill everything is something you can do with any melee. Equip a whip and pretend it's Hidden Blades, you won't notice the difference.
Talking about whip, why did you give such a long range if they are even shorter than daggers? i'm not even talking about balance anymore. It just doesn't make sense!

Good job on not straying too far from his original kit. Minus his 4 of course. At least you didn't remove Bladetorm completely. Some people completely forget that they could make a new frame with their suggestions.

TL;DR: The passive brings very interesting possibilities for his kit, Shuriken is still not worth it outside the blood stacks. Smoke Screen is a good side grade/small buff (much better if you need CC) but I prefer the one in game. Teleport is very good but might be too cheap. I don't like Exalted Melee. The synergy problem persists.

[ES-Flinter]

Thank you for responding. 

vor 5 Stunden schrieb BasKy:

You only get stacks and combo counter with skills right? Otherwise you will be at full stacks and combo all the time with some weapons.

That was my first idea. But I changed it to be affected by everything, otherwise you will be forced to spam shuriken and it would also limit him in using his "normal" melee weapon.

Until now I'm thinking that it should only be affected by melee and abilities bleed procs. 

And the increased combo counter only from melee hit. Just like the mod.^^

vor 5 Stunden schrieb BasKy:

For example, in current Ash I would use Teleport more often to kill if it used Blood Stacks instead of energy. And the people that prefer Teleport over Bladestorm would do the same if Bladestorm was the energy free skill (but used Blood Stacks).

I'm not sure, but I think it will be the complete opposite. Until now we have endless energy, but a limited amount of enemies which can donate blood points. So in the end the ability which needs blood points will always be less used.

vor 5 Stunden schrieb BasKy:

I'm not sure. Your first Shuriken brings a bit of CC. I would like something that brings more damage.

Until now it's just a concept so it can always be changed. ^^

What do you think about the idea that it works like a smaller version of garuda fourth ability? This would help his passive and it would also increase the inflicted damage on the nox.

vor 5 Stunden schrieb BasKy:

I could use your Shuriken skill if an angry Nox is coming my way and I don't want to kill him for some reason / my gun doesn't have the necessary damage to kill him fast, I can't risk getting close because I'm low on health, and I don't have or don't want to use my Blood stacks for the new Bladestorm.

On this situation I would extra spam teleport on him, because I'm invincible while doing a stealth attack.^^

vor 5 Stunden schrieb BasKy:

Mini-Shuriken sounds good on low level only. If the explosion brings CC then it's good ol' AoE CC, wich is good, but as I said I preffer damage for Ash.

It just provides bleed procs and no way of any CC. The only reason mini-Shuriken exists is to increase the amount of blood points.

vor 6 Stunden schrieb BasKy:

Mega Shuriken seems outclased by the new teleport with that whooping 10 energy. That 1000 damage won't fall as fast as the previous, but the finisher is simply outclased. I prefer to teleport and save 15 energy.
Now if instead of energy, Mega Shuriken used Blood Stacks...

I think I wasn't precise enough on the description for it. The Mega-Shuriken fly straight forward and has punchtrough. Just imagine what happend if you use blood skill while attacking a small three man group. With the right luck you could do around 11k damage on the guy in the middle (2000 damage on hit+ 35% of one bleed proc; 3 explosion where everyone inflict 2000 damage+ a guaranteed bleed proc). Would that be enough damage for you?😉😉😉

vor 7 Stunden schrieb BasKy:

10 Energy might be a bit low don't you think?

Probably. 😁😁😁I will change it later when I'm home again.

vor 7 Stunden schrieb BasKy:

Holding a button to mark severly hurts your mobility. Maybe hold to enter the "bladetorm mark phase", and press again to execute the targets.

Yeah, that is maybe the better solution.

vor 7 Stunden schrieb BasKy:

The clones killing all enemies at once is a no from me. That's a nuke (you didn't talk about the damage tho).

Damage of the clones should depend on the exalted weapon. Otherwise the player will be to much forced to use a slow high damge weapon.

And I think killing/ attacking the enemies at once isn't to broken. First you need to inflict the needed amount if blood points to use it. If you want to attack 10 enemies via teleport-blood-skill you need 100 blood points. Try getting them on sortie level enemies, where even a lato is capable of one shooting the enemies.

vor 7 Stunden schrieb BasKy:

The experience an exalted weapon and a normal melee weapon gives is exactly the same. I don't want exalted weapons never ever. Peacemaker is an exception because it does not work like a normal weapon, it might need a nerf to it's numbers but I like it. Smashing a button to kill everything is something you can do with any melee. Equip a whip and pretend it's Hidden Blades, you won't notice the difference.
Talking about whip, why did you give such a long range if they are even shorter than daggers? i'm not even talking about balance anymore. It just doesn't make sense!

Isn't the range of dual daggers only 2m? Correct me please if, I'm wrong. 

High melee range, because I don't know with what I could replace it, without making his hidden blades completley senseless. Giving Ash the potential to have the same killing potential like Mesa/ Saryn and Octavia feels just right. Especially if you think about that he nerfs himself with it, because every blood tic increase his combo-multiplier. And every time ash gets stronger he will inflict stronger bleed procs, which will kill the enemies with less tics.

Btw. the first idea was just the big rasen shuriken of naruto.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Just to correct you, what your asking for is a rework not a revisit, you changing two abilities so it`s a rework and before I get into it, have you seen my version of improvements to Ash?

[ES-Flinter]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Vexx757:

have you seen my version of improvements to Ash?

Are you talking about this one?

Yeah, I stole the slow effect from your shuriken idea.😈😈😈

vor 22 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Vexx757:

Just to correct you, what your asking for is a rework not a revisit, you changing two abilities so it`s a rework and before I get into it,

Didn't know that there is a difference between both. Thank you.

But I think it's already to late to change the title. It's already the second try for this concept. 😶😶😶

Edited December 10, 2019 by ES-Flinter

[(PSN)Vexx757]

14 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

Yeah, I stole the slow effect from your shuriken idea

Idm you taking it, it just means someone agrees with my idea. (which is a good 1) I was the only one saying ash can`t be in a farming team with nekros coz his bs kills make bodies disappear but coz ppl have seen my post about it, ppl are now saying it. Btw do you understand why I suggested for enemies to be slowed down?

14 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

Didn't know that there is a difference between both. Thank you.

Rework is when you change an ability - excel, wukong, ember, limbo

Revisit is when you improve abilities - oberon, nejha, nyx, titania

DE make up the rules but don`t follow them plus fanboys/girls like DE so much the don`t notice.

Edited December 10, 2019 by (PS4)Vexx757

[ES-Flinter]

vor 54 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Vexx757:

Btw do you understand why I suggested for enemies to be slowed down?

Maybe that the enemy can't run so far away, while Ash ends his front flip after the teleportation?^^

Sorry no idea. In my eyes it was just a neat idea.