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H3dsh0t's revisit to Banshee

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Always felt the problem with her is that the enemies you would want to have a massive damage vulnerability on are immune, most of the new bosses and mini-bosses in particular

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3 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

To them all frames for sometime now are basically the same even if their gameplay ends up being truly different.  Just because all frames being designed these days all carry similar capabilities.  And thematic gameplay differences are not enough to scratch the itch for them.  Which is understandable considering how much your frame used to change with modding.  I share Xzorn's desire to have true specalizations and roles with warframe.  I just don't think the old way things used to be are empirically superior to how frames are designed these days.  Thematic gameplay is very engaging for myself, but I understand where they and others come from.

Yeah, I kinda feel the same way here. Like there's definitely things I like about both paradigms, but I don't think either one of them has been particularly well executed.

The old paradigm was flawed because a) there's too few abilities in this game to make it work and b) there were still so many terrible abilities under this system. More traditional dungeon crawlers have way more build diversity within classes, but they also have dozens of interchangeable abilities for each class (and there's even multiple versions of some or all of each ability). Warframes have a grand total of four abilities, and that's all you get. Maybe you have an augment, but the augment is probably just a straight-up buff and you'd be a fool to not use it. And typically even among these four, there was at least one ability that was outright terrible, leading to a situation where you choose between using your one usable ability or using your other usable ability. This can lead to dull gameplay where you only have one ability button that you hammer incessantly for every situation. 

The new paradigm is flawed because a) there's way too much homogenity and b) the abilities are commonly much more interdependent than synergistic. This is how you get 12 Warframes that all effectively share 5-6 abilities. It's also how you get kits with two abilities that are each kinda worthless unless you use them together, and even then are inferior to a single ability that another frame has. 

I think there's a good balance to be struck between the two, but I don't necessarily know where that is. I kinda feel on some level like it requires a level of overhaul to the game that is approaching sequel territory. 

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3 часа назад, (XB1)Knight Raime сказал:

I've had this discussion with Xzorn before.  I disagreed with their talk of build diversity.  But there is some truth to their perspective.  They miss how heavily important modding use to effect frames.  Allowing you to specialize.  These days you can choose to "focus" on an ability or two with modding but the overall approach you take with a frame doesn't drastically change.

The dude's trying to say that his vision is the only way true, look at that, seriously!

His main point is "grass was greener" in the past, though we all know how freakin hard it can be for DE to come up with new original cool abilities, looking how two frames are dipping hard from Rhino's kit.

Like seriously, his concern is about DE implementing kits where you HAVE to use all 3-4 abilities to succeed (Saryn, Nidus, Harrow, Wisp, Garuda, Baruuk, Grendel) instead of just 1 or 2. "Hey look, I've built my Frost for globe and avalanche, glory for me smartass!!!"

10 часов назад, Xzorn сказал:

I go High range / Duration Frost with Icewave Impedance I'm a CC frost.

Look at this, who the hell you kidding with? Do you even use that build in your "level 300" endeavours huh?

8 часов назад, Xzorn сказал:

Every new frame probably has 1-2 mod difference across the board for all players.

Yea, I can do that with all old frames. Forget minmaxing, put positive only mods. Won't see the difference.

8 часов назад, Xzorn сказал:

You can't really build wrong like this video shows with old frames. They're building and playing Banshee wrong and suffer for it.

Oh enlighten me gracious lord how to build my banshee for Lith fissures. Because I haven't watched a vid from some noname with poor british accent.

Like seriously, I aknowledge the fact Banshee is the most skill dependant frame in the game because her abilities improve gunplay and demand parkour, rather than replacing need in both. But even if you go for S.Silence builds you have TWO variants to go for, huh? Suit your playstyle maybe? Tweak some stuff?

I found myself quit minmaxing abilities and instead sticking with mobility and ehp improvements, since, you know, gotta git gud before going 3 hour solo mot.

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5 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Look at this, who the hell you kidding with? Do you even use that build in your "level 300" endeavours huh?

 

Yes actually, that's exactly the build I use for Endurance Defense. Frost casts Snow Globe every 4 seconds making it immortal so he doesn't need Power Strength as a result Thus an appropriate amount of Range for the Globe and slowing enemies to make shots easier to land as utility is his best secondary contribution. Longer duration gives you more time to shoot between Globes and it's esp potent against Infested.

Of course keep in mind this was before DE finally fixed status procs on Frozen enemies that was an issue for what 6 years? Still cheaper on energy though and you don't exactly want to stop enemies from shooting the Globe to pump up it's HP value in case you miss a re-cast.

5 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Yea, I can do that with all old frames. Forget minmaxing, put positive only mods. Won't see the difference.

I literally just gave you examples. Go 13% Duration + Max Range on Silence and spam the hell out of it. Lemme know if that's not profoundly different.

My concern is not about having to use 3-4 abilities. It's about being unable to change the functionality of those abilities in any meaningful way. What DE calls "Synergy" I call dependency. Just extra work so any given ability will function to keep your fingers busy because the game no longer can. As I pointed out; It still fails in that I can take your Garuda and fight lvl 100's easily without using a single ability. There intention was to stop players from spamming 4-to-win in trivial content and again. They kinda failed.

Neither method is perfect but the current is quite easy to view as a gimmick in attempts to stop things that were only a problem due to DE's own neglect and the previous had a far more interesting range for each frame's builds while also dare I say requiring knowledge. DE nerfed Mirage's Prism because players were locking down Interception missions. Meanwhile I'd been doing that for years on a 13% Duration Nyx. First day Interception came out I made that build and got into a leaderboard fight with another player.

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Wow... I post this and look away for 24 hours and it really blown up. Lots of good ideas outside of my own too. Either way, I love my sound gal and would like to see if anything comes from all this great discussion.

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12 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

The dude's trying to say that his vision is the only way true, look at that, seriously!

You're being extra hostile, I'm surprised Xzorn is even responding to you at this point.

You're so angry that he has a different perspective your not even seeing it.

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On 2019-12-11 at 2:08 PM, Miyabi-sama said:

If she'll remain a sound lady, it'll be ok.

If DE will acknowledge.she's struggling at some of new content and tweak her powers it'll be ok.

If DE will go with the flow and give her kavat scat ideas from forum like damage resist and idiotic synergies with "loudness" meter, i'll throw a #*!%in tantrum.

I #*!%ing hate the fact that so many people want to plaster every frame with DR, like no. Like if we keep going like that, DE might as well reduce enemy dmg by 90%.

 

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6 часов назад, Xzorn сказал:

Frost casts Snow Globe every 4 seconds

Спойлер

SiF8hyOE80s.jpg

Use Limbo teammate to survive dude, I beg you. Punching a button every 4 seconds is a pain.

But yeah, that's a playstyle.

6 часов назад, Xzorn сказал:

My concern is not about having to use 3-4 abilities. It's about being unable to change the functionality of those abilities in any meaningful way. What DE calls "Synergy" I call dependency. Just extra work so any given ability will function to keep your fingers busy because the game no longer can. As I pointed out; It still fails in that I can take your Garuda and fight lvl 100's easily without using a single ability. There intention was to stop players from spamming 4-to-win in trivial content and again. They kinda failed.

Yeah, I can go lvl 100 with Banshee and not use any ability. Anyone can. There's plethora of guns replacing abilities.

And no, Garuda have absolutely no synergy between her abilities. If you gonna say she restores health after wasting in with 3, I can say Loki has synergy between decoy and radial disarm. So you can minmax for her health totems or mirror or even 4.

I see your reasoning but, in the end, it all boils down to personal playstyle.

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40 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Use Limbo teammate to survive dude, I beg you. Punching a button every 4 seconds is a pain.

 

Yea, no one wants to be the Frost in those comps.

Issue with Limbo is you have to feed his Cata to remain 100% functional for Defense. I have a great team comp using Limbo in place of Frost in fact with a non-Rad Disarm Loki, Limbo w/ Cata and Rift augment, Resonance Banshee and any other. Loki runs outside Cata dropping Nullies and Disarms so everything comes to Limbo then everyone inside Cata goes melee happy. Could throw a Speedva in the last spot, a Smoke Shadow Ash so everyone gets stealth multipliers and safety from Stasis re-casts, an Equinox for focused sleeps or spreading Rage and Maim at point blank range.

That setup is full proof and everyone does their own jobs working together with legitimate ability synergy.

That's the type of build and team diversity I enjoy. Most new frames can't really blend into a tactic like that. Gara and Nidus being exceptions. Most just do what they do. Sure it's helpful to the group most the time but it doesn't lock together the same way. It's just kinda Generic like I first mentioned.

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On 2019-12-11 at 6:35 AM, Xzorn said:

Trust me if you wana do well with Banshee then pretty much do nothing in that video.
People in my Endurance Discord community were making fun of it yesterday.

First off the representation is disingenuous. Video is paired with a Wisp the entire time or Immune in the Simulacrum. Still they die instantly regardless of all the pointless Defensive mods they put on her instead of the right weapons and moving correctly. Essentially showing it's a dumb idea.

Using all the wrong mods and using the wrong weapon which causes her to stand still far too much with not enough passive CC attached like Rad status and AoE. Please, please do not play Banshee like this. It's insulting and just comical when they compare her damage output to Chroma.

Banshee relies on Silence CC, Sonic Boom CC, movement, her weapon's CC and massive damage output to survive. If these tactics don't work correctly then maybe just maybe it's the game's new design and not the frame you should to pointing a figure at. Just sayin'.

If you can't stay alive playing Banshee then it's your fault. Not hers:
rQjK4ED.jpg

Torrid / Mara Detron. No Defensive mods, Solo.
For my lvl 300 Solo run I used similar with a Specter using Arca Plasmor for additional Rad procs.

I stopped reading after peopling insulting the YouTuber. *shrug*

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14 minutes ago, Peekoh said:

I stopped reading after peopling insulting the YouTuber. *shrug*

 

What's insulting in what I said? I offered a contrary perspective and criticized their approach.

Actually I don't care. I already know most Warframe Youtubers take criticism as personal attacks. It's the reason I only talk to a select few. X3lp, Rio, Mog and some lesser knowns. Most the rest will just delete your comment if you correct their mistakes or go full salty rant then delete the comment. I've got some screenshots. it's funny.

Got quite a few of both players and Youtubers personally attacking me as well. It's the internet; Get some thick skin or drop out.

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1 minute ago, Xzorn said:

 

What's insulting in what I said? I offered a contrary perspective and criticized their approach.

Actually I don't care. I already know most Warframe Youtubers take criticism as personal attacks. It's the reason I only talk to a select few. X3lp, Rio, Mog and some lesser knowns. Most the rest will just delete your comment if you correct their mistakes or go full salty rant then delete the comment. I've got some screenshots. it's funny.

Got quite a few of both players and Youtubers personally attacking me as well. It's the internet; Get some thick skin or drop out.

It’s not a matter of thick skin. It’s realizing what they say isn’t law, nor what you say. I don’t care for people insulting content creators since 99% of the time it is because they feel as if the way they see it is completely superior, such as yourself. 

Instead of thick skin, please learn to see there are multiple perspectives for anything in life. 

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8 minutes ago, Peekoh said:

It’s not a matter of thick skin. It’s realizing what they say isn’t law, nor what you say. I don’t care for people insulting content creators since 99% of the time it is because they feel as if the way they see it is completely superior, such as yourself. 

Instead of thick skin, please learn to see there are multiple perspectives for anything in life. 

 

That's kinda the problem with Warframe Youtubers though. Players take their videos and apply it as their own argument. If I don't like a Youtuber I just don't click on their videos but when someone posts a video on the forums and tries to use it as factual evidence there's something wrong. The video itself "Re-Build" and "Relic" as points of argument she's outdated thus I will post contrary evidence and a contrary point of view on what's actually wrong. ie the game design itself.

They're both Survival missions. They died at least twice in the video I didn't die and was Solo. What's the perspective on that?

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7 hours ago, BlachWolf said:

I #*!%ing hate the fact that so many people want to plaster every frame with DR, like no. Like if we keep going like that, DE might as well reduce enemy dmg by 90%.

 

I agree. I know some folks say accuracy reduction makes her like Nyx but lets not forget that Titania has that too as an active ability rather than a passive and it's stronger than Nyx's along with helping the entire team rather than just the frame itself. It seems something that would make sense for Banshee too because the "sound" effects throws off enemy ability to aim at the same time maintains a level of squish because if they roll a successful hit, its going to hurt.

 

At the moment I have been using the Augur set + Quick Thinking +Primed Flow + Zaw with Exodia Brave  because at least that way it seems to give a "health gating" effect. I see that stagger I know I got to react NOW.

 

I really like out of the box kits. City of Heroes was really good at those back in it's day with accuracy reduction, damage resistance on players, damage dealt reduction on enemies, confusion type abilities, slowing attack rates, and so on. There was a ton of them. Some were different ways of doing same thing, others were really unique. Its something I really like to see embraced more, not just in Warframe but other MMOs too.

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8 hours ago, Xzorn said:

That's the type of build and team diversity I enjoy. Most new frames can't really blend into a tactic like that. Gara and Nidus being exceptions

Khora can be specialised into a near room wide CC queen with ensnare (the dome would slow proceedings so I would steer clear of it in this case), a gas proc monster with another build focusing on Whipclaw potentially synergising with Breach Surge for stealth multipliers and gas ticks setting off Breach sparks

Baruuk can be the designated reviver with Elude😂, pull enemies from the borders of cataclysm or into a Mallet,Magnetise explosion etc using block combos on his four, and potentially put a whole room to sleep (provided he has LOS)

Garuda can potentially be a DPS,Healer hybrid in Eidolon hunting given a build with range and strength with little regard for duration (obviously she won't be the most efficient choice but she can heal operators so she can be pretty good for teaching noobies)

Nezha currently can create bootleg Hallowed Ground with the alternative benefit of halving enemy armor and dealing increasing damage with the new heat proc (requires a truck load of strength and duration), you could throw in the augment as well for a killing blow to a high priority but no such enemy exists in Warframe that isn't arbitrarily status immune. He can provide a potent vulnerability debuff as well if you want to go for that.

Gauss can have armor stripping synergy(or interdependency not too sure🤷‍♂️) with Frost(Ice Wave or Avalanche) and Ember(Fire Blast or Inferno) (assuming of course we didn't live in a world with CP) using Thermal Sunder and Redline. Gauss would also like to know how fast do you want your Torid projectiles out?😏

Wisp can blind a whole room if she wants providing stealth multipliers that can last for over half a minute, provides buff stations, opens a gate to the sun so that we may praise \ o /

I'm no endurance guy though I'm just speaking from a casual observation of potential interactions, you're right on Wukong though he brings nothing to a team comp

I'm more on the "I like pressing buttons" camp, what can I say I just wanna push stuff🤷‍♂️, for me the new frames are more of how you can apply their abilities intelligently/creatively (which I guess is more or less a similar objective to yours but we just see things differently). Often times its EHP this EHP that and it culminated in Adaptation and Rolling Guard which to me was an admission that "we can't make interesting ways to defend yourself, here have EHP and invulnerability", this is of course my personal perspective.

2 hours ago, DeeDeetheSpy said:

I really like out of the box kits

Everyone does when they get to see one, Gauss for me was a fun implementation of what have become some of the most generic mechanics in-game but if he had a mehanic that was actually unique and interesting (like spinning enemies hit by Mach Rush or even pulling them around as he Mach Rushes around) I would love him even more. Don't get me wrong though speedy boi is still loads of fun. Titania could have an out of the box kit, DE just has to sit and creatively apply themselves when dealing with her Tribute buffs

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1 hour ago, (PS4)RazorPhoenix970 said:

Everyone does when they get to see one, Gauss for me was a fun implementation of what have become some of the most generic mechanics in-game but if he had a mehanic that was actually unique and interesting (like spinning enemies hit by Mach Rush or even pulling them around as he Mach Rushes around) I would love him even more. Don't get me wrong though speedy boi is still loads of fun. Titania could have an out of the box kit, DE just has to sit and creatively apply themselves when dealing with her Tribute buffs

I am all about pulling enemies about. Hydroid does that with his 2, Zyph has her 1 that does knock downs but would love to have her pull along too when she does 1, I am totally not against a situation like Neo matrix flight with things flying behind him... but also Mag with loot. Too bad her bullet jump doesn't pull enemies too.

 

Titania has some cool stuff right now as it is I think. I have done caster and melee builds with her that doesn't really use her 4. Really need to keep her buffs up and her lantern but get a couple lanterns up is really good, getting enemies walking to them instead of attacking her.

Back to Banshee, I just really want to see her sonic really embraced. Some sonic theme stuff in  other games: City of Heroes https://cityofheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_Resonance  and  https://cityofheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_Attack and  then Champions Online has a whole bunch of Sonic themed powers http://www.championswiki.com/index.php?search=Sonic&go=Go but the powers are not all under one tree and require Freeform to take advantage of. All have stuns and knock downs part of them and many have a "disorient" debuff which stacks on enemies causing them to do less damage and reduce their speed and attack rate. Its all stuff I think Banshee can sample from or improve on in design with out depending on Damage Resistance as a key point or even removing armor for her damage output. Making her more of a "finisher" type hero that ignores armor.

When it comes to my suggestions on her, its really the kind of stuff I was thinking about. Pushing and knocking stuff around, causing enemies to have a harder time due to the sound waves, and the disarm to make enemies chase after weapons instead of attacking us. It doesn't make her tougher at all, but increases her suitability in other ways and gives her more to do.

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4 hours ago, DeeDeetheSpy said:

I just really want to see her sonic really embraced.

Forgive me for thinking of a different, spiky, red boot wearing sonic...I couldn't help myself😅🤷‍♂️

4 hours ago, DeeDeetheSpy said:

with out depending on Damage Resistance as a key point or even removing armor for her damage output. Making her more of a "finisher" type hero that ignores armor.

Kinda like Garuda but with sound, I'm all for it

4 hours ago, DeeDeetheSpy said:

All have stuns and knock downs part of them and many have a "disorient" debuff which stacks on enemies causing them to do less damage and reduce their speed and attack rate

4 hours ago, DeeDeetheSpy said:

Pushing and knocking stuff around, causing enemies to have a harder time due to the sound waves, and the disarm to make enemies chase after weapons instead of attacking us. It doesn't make her tougher at all, but increases her suitability in other ways and gives her more to do.

Suggesting alternatives beyond the norm, we need more things like this😪  Hindering enemies to the point they can't function right really sounds like something an excessive amount of pure sound would do...if it counts for anything I like this train of thought

 

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On 2019-12-11 at 7:52 PM, Gurpgork said:

Yeah, I kinda feel the same way here. Like there's definitely things I like about both paradigms, but I don't think either one of them has been particularly well executed.

The old paradigm was flawed because a) there's too few abilities in this game to make it work and b) there were still so many terrible abilities under this system. More traditional dungeon crawlers have way more build diversity within classes, but they also have dozens of interchangeable abilities for each class (and there's even multiple versions of some or all of each ability). Warframes have a grand total of four abilities, and that's all you get. Maybe you have an augment, but the augment is probably just a straight-up buff and you'd be a fool to not use it. And typically even among these four, there was at least one ability that was outright terrible, leading to a situation where you choose between using your one usable ability or using your other usable ability. This can lead to dull gameplay where you only have one ability button that you hammer incessantly for every situation. 

No joke I would really love it if frames actually became full on rpg like characters instead of just 4 abilities and a passive.

On 2019-12-11 at 7:52 PM, Gurpgork said:

The new paradigm is flawed because a) there's way too much homogenity and b) the abilities are commonly much more interdependent than synergistic. This is how you get 12 Warframes that all effectively share 5-6 abilities. It's also how you get kits with two abilities that are each kinda worthless unless you use them together, and even then are inferior to a single ability that another frame has. 

I think there's a good balance to be struck between the two, but I don't necessarily know where that is. I kinda feel on some level like it requires a level of overhaul to the game that is approaching sequel territory. 

I slightly disagree about some of that.  But it's mainly because my view on the frames is "special." But I overall agree with you.

On 2019-12-11 at 8:01 PM, Miyabi-sama said:

The dude's trying to say that his vision is the only way true, look at that, seriously!

His main point is "grass was greener" in the past, though we all know how freakin hard it can be for DE to come up with new original cool abilities, looking how two frames are dipping hard from Rhino's kit.

Like seriously, his concern is about DE implementing kits where you HAVE to use all 3-4 abilities to succeed (Saryn, Nidus, Harrow, Wisp, Garuda, Baruuk, Grendel) instead of just 1 or 2. "Hey look, I've built my Frost for globe and avalanche, glory for me smartass!!!"

 

I've never understood Xzorn to impose their view as an objective fact unless it comes to how things work in warframe.  As their very knowledgable of the games mechanics.  Xzorn was saying that they LIKED how you could specialize before and that they don't enjoy how things are now.  They weren't trying to state old warframe was objectively superior and flawless.

I think you're just misunderstanding their perspective.  Which is again.  They liked being able to pick one or two abilities to invest into which makes the frame specialize in a certain style of play.  Where as picking 1/2 abilities to focus on with most current frames doesn't drastically change how the abilities themselves interact with the enemies or the team you might be running with.  A loki focused on stealth plays far different than a loki focused on disarm.  Both versions still use both abilities.  Just in different situations and for different reasons.

Me overly focusing on Garuda's blood ball setup doesn't change how effective doing melee would be.  or vise versa.  Sure, I AM playing different.  But the frame really doesn't.  Which is the point attempting to be made.  Or at least the main point.

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Well, I posted a reply to the video, but my favourite topic is improving Warframes, so let's have a go at clarifying my points from there on this thread:

So, key points; Banshee has an amazing buff, but nothing for survivability and can be very polarised to just one or two abilities, also her 4 is incredibly under-cooked for current play.

Anyone that loves her will make use of weapons and status as a real key to her functions, and I don't want to remove that. I just want her abilities to have a mechanical upgrade because it's not really her abilities that's the problem, it's how they work that's causing her to be a little left behind.
 

Spoiler

 

1. Sonic Boom.

Has its uses, but rarely does it have its uses when un-augmented. Why? Because Ragdoll is only a good CC when there are no other types of CC. We have some great mechanical and animation based CC functions in Warframe and I think we should use those instead of the Ragdoll. Try making it a Hold CC that stuns and places the enemy where they can be hit. Cast as normal, cone of effect as normal, low damage as normal. Enemies hit are stunned and disoriented instead of ragdolled, using animation plus a Duration so that it's great for standing enemies up to be shot, but can't be shorter than a minimum duration because of the animation. 

This sounds very much like the animation-based CC of her 3, right? And that's because it's a compliment to it, not competition with it; casting on an enemy affected by silence will extend the duration of CC and also add in the standing-up (not holding their ears and crouching down) animation to the cast, extending any CC you already have with that stagger. You can use either/or, and they get better when used together.

2. Sonar.

Pretty much fine as is. Combos well with an adjusted 1, because enemies will stand still to be shot on the weak points. I would possibly add one of those little 'combo' timers that makes the ability cheaper for repeat casts, but with the Resonance augment that's not even necessary.

3. Silence.

Add survivability; currently there is only the CC part of this to help her when Solo, and the team buff is... pointless in a team, nobody needs the silenced weapons because a stealth mission with a team will automatically imply stealth frames or be complete anarchy. Update to 'Sound Barrier'; enemies that enter the range are staggered, allies within range gain damage resistance up to a cap. Think of it as Splinter Storm, but with a Stagger for enemies instead of the straight up Damage that Splinter Storm can combo up. Recastable before end of duration, because why not, and there you go.

4. Sound Quake.

Remove the immobilise. Make it a Duration cast that you can have only one of, place it down and enemies that enter the range are staggered and dealt damage over the time. Now causes Floating enemies (ospreys) to stagger/fall the same as a Ground Slam does. Shorter Duration, medium range so that enemies can still target you and shoot at you from outside of its range unless you Overextend. Removes the enforced risk and leaves Banshee a way to cover one direction of attack and roam knowing that CC is in a specific place. De-casting before end of duration, then recasting at a new point is possible (also prevents too much CC spam, as there is a window between cast and recast).

Bonus effect for scaling; Sound Quake will be able to scale with Sonar's weak points, based on the number of weak points that are on the enemy. It won't make it a nuke, unless at low level (and again, shorter range to ensure you need to Overextend to get too many enemies at once), but you could apply the mechanic of Vauban's Flechette orb to keep it a relevant move at higher levels.

 

The goal here is to give her a bit of everything without changing the base aspects of what she does in normal play, and as much as there is a niche group of people that hate the idea of 'hybrid' frames, able to do a little bit of everything, they do seem to be a very good class to be overall.

Banshee becomes less reliant on single ability usage, is able to take a few hits, and be more of an ability based hybrid. She has no healing, but DR means she can survive long enough that her ability buffed damage is now far more reliable for both solo and team play, weapon-based healing will still be viable, team-based healing just as much so, and the ability to place a CC similar to Vauban's Repelling Bastille will count for a lot, especially as the damage on it can potentially scale to keep up with enemy level with the help of Sonar. Basically she keeps the same methods of killing things; using her augmented 1 to strip armour will kill things fast; using her 2 to boost damage will kill things; using her 3 to stun and then attack will still be a fantastic method of play... but that added survivability and more functional 4 will push those methods into the fore because she'll just stay alive better to do all of those things.

Not perfect, but better than now.

And best part? The people who still want to mod her exactly the same as they did before will still be able to do that. I genuinely think that this would be a best-of-both-worlds kind of update.

What about the rest of you?

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12 минут назад, Birdframe_Prime сказал:

Banshee has an amazing buff

No. She does not.

She does affect enemies in negative way, it is a debuff. The most interesting, fun and rewarding debuff in the game.

17 минут назад, Birdframe_Prime сказал:

What about the rest of you?

I think that plucking DR in every frame will soon make this game stupid. I think everyone who suggests this kind of changes are either noobs, trolls or saboteurs. No offense.

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4 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

No offense.

Butt Hat. No offense.

4 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

I think that plucking DR in every frame will soon make this game stupid.

That said, why? Every frame needs some way to mitigate damage because the current damage scaling is balls. As proven with frames like Vauban, CC cannot do it all, and Banshee's current CC is only enough if you play a specific way. Flat out, it's not very good CC, it's just something people can actually use. There's the argument of 'if it ain't broke', but that has never been a good enough reason to not improve things around here.

What makes this game stupid is the fact that the enemies we face are stupid. Brainless AI that has no tactics, only damage. Without a way to mitigate that damage... a frame is not addressing the literal only thing the enemy actually does to us.

If the enemy was actually smart AI, with tactics that flanked, roved, set traps, baited us forwards or charged us when we were weak, even just used cover effectively, then their damage wouldn't actually need to scale up the way it does. So, it's the opposite. The game is stupid, and one way to deal with that stupidity is a simple damage reduction function.

4 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

She does affect enemies in negative way, it is a debuff.

Just for fun:

I would argue that the enemy is, in no way, actually debuffed. No stats are affected, no change to their behaviour, nothing.

The effect is a damage multiplier for you and your team based on a targeting function. You get a target, you hit the target, your damage is multiplied.

Banshee's is more specialised, true, needing you to hit specific targets on the enemy instead of just the enemy, but it's a buff to your damage not a debuff to the enemy.

That all said...

What about the rest? Any opinions there for the more usable CC on her 1 and 4, the ability to scale her own damage a little better with Sonar targets acting as a multiplier for her 4, or actually having a useful team buff instead of the kind of Stealth that this game doesn't use anymore?

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1 час назад, Birdframe_Prime сказал:

Butt Hat. No offense.

That said, why? Every frame needs some way to mitigate damage because the current damage scaling is balls. As proven with frames like Vauban, CC cannot do it all, and Banshee's current CC is only enough if you play a specific way. Flat out, it's not very good CC, it's just something people can actually use. There's the argument of 'if it ain't broke', but that has never been a good enough reason to not improve things around here.

What makes this game stupid is the fact that the enemies we face are stupid. Brainless AI that has no tactics, only damage. Without a way to mitigate that damage... a frame is not addressing the literal only thing the enemy actually does to us.

If the enemy was actually smart AI, with tactics that flanked, roved, set traps, baited us forwards or charged us when we were weak, even just used cover effectively, then their damage wouldn't actually need to scale up the way it does. So, it's the opposite. The game is stupid, and one way to deal with that stupidity is a simple damage reduction function.

Just for fun:

I would argue that the enemy is, in no way, actually debuffed. No stats are affected, no change to their behaviour, nothing.

The effect is a damage multiplier for you and your team based on a targeting function. You get a target, you hit the target, your damage is multiplied.

Banshee's is more specialised, true, needing you to hit specific targets on the enemy instead of just the enemy, but it's a buff to your damage not a debuff to the enemy.

That all said...

What about the rest? Any opinions there for the more usable CC on her 1 and 4, the ability to scale her own damage a little better with Sonar targets acting as a multiplier for her 4, or actually having a useful team buff instead of the kind of Stealth that this game doesn't use anymore?

Tl;dr

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Sonic Boom's value comes mostly from Resonance. I'm the first person to rage about Ragdoll. I hate it but Banshee doesn't really need to aim and highly favors AoE weapons that don't require aim so she can focus on enemy behavior and mobility. I generally use Sonic Boom when the Stun CC from Silence is about to fail and potentially get me killed. ie I'd rather knock them back then get shot by them.

Sure, it could be a better form of CC and I'd take that but you kinda have to use it or die in her current state.

Savage Silence used to have amazing group value but it wasn't intended sadly. It used to force stealth multiplier on any enemy going through a forced animation like Heat / Electric status, getting up from knockdown, ect. She essentially gave everyone stealth bonus long as they had some kinda CC status effect outside Impact.

Literally every ability Banshee uses is a debuff / CC effect. That's generally why she doesn't work well in new content. If DE makes all these enemies that are immune to abilities and CC what's she supposed to do other than die? Sadly there is reason to distinguish debuff from buff these days because of that.

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On 2019-12-11 at 4:38 AM, Miyabi-sama said:

Please no, I don't want to cast 2 spells to make one of them work on full potential.

I've never heard of someone just not liking synergies.
...I don't quite know how to take that.
Not once in my life has that possibility even occurred to me.
Nothing wrong with it, just, flabbergasted.

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