H3dsh0t's revisit to Banshee

[Renegade343]

On 2019-12-11 at 7:35 AM, Xzorn said:

Trust me if you wana do well with Banshee then pretty much do nothing in that video.
People in my Endurance Discord community were making fun of it yesterday.

First off the representation is disingenuous. Video is paired with a Wisp the entire time or Immune in the Simulacrum. Still they die instantly regardless of all the pointless Defensive mods they put on her instead of the right weapons and moving correctly. Essentially showing it's a dumb idea.

Using all the wrong mods and using the wrong weapon which causes her to stand still far too much with not enough passive CC attached like Rad status and AoE. Please, please do not play Banshee like this. It's insulting and just comical when they compare her damage output to Chroma.

Banshee relies on Silence CC, Sonic Boom CC, movement, her weapon's CC and massive damage output to survive. If these tactics don't work correctly then maybe just maybe it's the game's new design and not the frame you should to pointing a figure at. Just sayin'.

If you can't stay alive playing Banshee then it's your fault. Not hers:

Torrid / Mara Detron. No Defensive mods, Solo.
For my lvl 300 Solo run I used similar with a Specter using Arca Plasmor for additional Rad procs.

Ok, so you've basically just mill around at a semi-choke point (yes, I know where it is, and you can set up one, given that enemies would need to basically be facing in a certain direction to get to you) with two NPC allies (from the looks of it, Spectres) to take some damage off you/give you more effective power. That's a bit disingenuous to use that to suggest Banshee is fine.

Better to show that through not relying on Spectres, but just yourself. Because trust me, I've done a thirty minute Mot Survival run with just my Banshee (not even the Prime) with a bit of Operator, and with all sound muted, and that's really, really more fun and indicative of your skill, because now you need to really pay attention to everything.

[Xzorn]

4 hours ago, Renegade343 said:

Better to show that through not relying on Spectres, but just yourself. Because trust me, I've done a thirty minute Mot Survival run with just my Banshee (not even the Prime) with a bit of Operator, and with all sound muted, and that's really, really more fun and indicative of your skill, because now you need to really pay attention to everything.

 

It's a Specter using Plasmor for Rad procs to counter Nullfiiers. I wouldn't use it if Nullifiers weren't in the map or better  yet weren't a thing.

No amount of skill will protect Banshee from a Nullifier. They must be countered via Rad procs.

Far as choke points. I guess it's minus brownie points for sitting behind Volt's shield as well? Covering 180 degrees Vs 360 with limited Silence CC / Sonic Boom neither of which work on a Nullifier which is going to kill her eventually no matter how good a player is so again this is a tactic mostly to counter Nullifiers which aren't in the posted video since it's against Grineer where you can generally get away with running back and forth between two points which is exactly what they're doing in the video.

I also never said Banshee was fine. I said if you want to do well with her then don't play her like that. Yes alter Silence range to your needs and even Rolling Guard but all those Defensive mods are a waste and the weapon of choice doesn't allow her to be mobile enough. They use 0 movement speed mods and personally I feel Natural Talent is required for her, least Solo.

They have one build using Natural Talent and it's got Rage / Adaptation / Guardian x2. That doesn't make sense. If you're going to pretend she's Durable then why at that point increase her cast speed? Just drop a Guardian for Energize, Swap Rage with P. Flow and use QT instead. Better yet drop Augur's and keep Natural Talent plus those. That brings her from 6k eHP to 10k with better recovery and the same cast speed that no longer requires her to get shot to sustain energy.

[Renegade343]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

It's a Specter using Plasmor for Rad procs to counter Nullfiiers. I wouldn't use it if Nullifiers weren't in the map or better  yet weren't a thing.

No amount of skill will protect Banshee from a Nullifier. They must be countered via Rad procs

Eeh... saying that Nullifiers must be countered via Rad procs is a bit narrow minded of you. For my run, I just spray down the shield or the drone with Ignis Wraith/Mara Detron, and it works fine.

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

Far as choke points. I guess it's minus brownie points for sitting behind Volt's shield as well? Covering 180 degrees Vs 360 with limited Silence CC / Sonic Boom neither of which work on a Nullifier which is going to kill her eventually no matter how good a player is so again this is a tactic mostly to counter Nullifiers which aren't in the posted video since it's against Grineer where you can generally get away with running back and forth between two points which is exactly what they're doing in the video.

Well... yeah, going for long survivals with a choke point's going to be easier than playing with dodging projectiles coming from every direction. Much more fun for the latter though, makes you appreciate the full extent of your movement arsenal.

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

I also never said Banshee was fine. I said if you want to do well with her then don't play her like that. Yes alter Silence range to your needs and even Rolling Guard but all those Defensive mods are a waste and the weapon of choice doesn't allow her to be mobile enough. They use 0 movement speed mods and personally I feel Natural Talent is required for her, least Solo.

I mean, based on how you likely would've played in that image, you're also not moving relatively much for a squishy caster frame. You brought a Torid, for god's sake. Unless you're sticking it to enemies for mobile clouds, then sure.

And aim glide casting is a thing to stay mobile, to alleviate some need for Natural Talent/Speed Drift (though sprint speed with Speed Drift's nice to stack).

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

They have one build using Natural Talent and it's got Rage / Adaptation / Guardian x2. That doesn't make sense. If you're going to pretend she's Durable then why at that point increase her cast speed? Just drop a Guardian for Energize, Swap Rage with P. Flow and use QT instead. Better yet drop Augur's and keep Natural Talent plus those. That brings her from 6k eHP to 10k with better recovery and the same cast speed that no longer requires her to get shot to sustain energy.

I ran a HA + QT + P. Flow at Rank 8 + Adaptation + Vitality, no Arcane for that run. Brought a Sancti Magistar, and guess what, I have a nice time surviving. Don't think I ever dropped into energy reserves for health in that run, so, you know, says something about somebody's mod build not being applicable to everyone because of their playstyle.

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, Renegade343 said:

Eeh... saying that Nullifiers must be countered via Rad procs is a bit narrow minded of you. For my run, I just spray down the shield or the drone with Ignis Wraith/Mara Detron, and it works fine.

You can mitigate them hitting you by dodging, line of sight, mobility, rolling guard, ect but they will eventually always hit because you cannot take down the bubble fast enough before they get a shot off and they use movement prediction. It's a literal impossibility. They will eventually land a shot. The only way to full proof 100% avoid that throughout scaling is by getting their attention on something else or use Barrier abilities until you kill them. That's pretty much why they're such trash enemy design.

1 hour ago, Renegade343 said:

I ran a HA + QT + P. Flow at Rank 8 + Adaptation + Vitality, no Arcane for that run. Brought a Sancti Magistar, and guess what, I have a nice time surviving. Don't think I ever dropped into energy reserves for health in that run, so, you know, says something about somebody's mod build not being applicable to everyone because of their playstyle.

...and if you had an Energize set on you wouldn't need Hunter's Adrenaline otherwise that's the same thing I said.

I don't see what that has to do with me just typing a better build for doing what they were trying to do. I made a build with almost twice the base eHP at the cost of 24% Power Strength with QT mitigation being unaffected by Puncture/Toxic double dips so it's even more resilient than the eHP values let on.

[Renegade343]

2 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

You can mitigate them hitting you by dodging, line of sight, mobility, rolling guard, ect but they will eventually always hit because you cannot take down the bubble fast enough before they get a shot off and they use movement prediction. It's a literal impossibility. They will eventually land a shot. The only way to full proof 100% avoid that throughout scaling is by getting their attention on something else or use Barrier abilities until you kill them. That's pretty much why they're such trash enemy design

And I relish the challenge of dodging Nullifier sniper shots, because I can do it consistently. And so what if they eventually land a shot? That doesn't take away the fact that you evaded a lot more of them prior.

3 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

...and if you had an Energize set on you wouldn't need Hunter's Adrenaline otherwise that's the same thing I said.

Point is that you don't even have to use Arcanes to survive.

3 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I don't see what that has to do with me just typing a better build for doing what they were trying to do. I made a build with almost twice the base eHP at the cost of 24% Power Strength with QT mitigation being unaffected by Puncture/Toxic double dips so it's even more resilient than the eHP values let on.

To show that:

1. You don't have to use Arcanes for survivability.
2. You don't need Natural Talent for the build, because the cast times are relatively fast and aim-glide casting works with her abilities to CC.

[Xzorn]

53 minutes ago, Renegade343 said:

And I relish the challenge of dodging Nullifier sniper shots, because I can do it consistently. And so what if they eventually land a shot?

Nice.

54 minutes ago, Renegade343 said:

To show that:

1. You don't have to use Arcanes for survivability.
2. You don't need Natural Talent for the build, because the cast times are relatively fast and aim-glide casting works with her abilities to CC.

My point wasn't can you survive. It's that the build provided wasn't optimal for doing so and trying to do so on Banshee isn't optimal in the first place.
That's a double dose of "Don't do this with Banshee".

[Renegade343]

Just now, Xzorn said:

Nice.

An expert at something can still slip up or be unlucky on the occasion. Yet we are willing to say that said expert is still consistent with his work when he can execute something at a competent level as expected of him almost every time.

Hell, that even applies to manufacturing. It's always the case that an item a manufacturer makes would be defective, but you don't call that manufacturer inconsistent when it can show it can produce those items at similar quality at a frequent rate.

Same idea for that, really.

[Benour]

So you camped this very well known spot with banshee spamming torid/silence like there is no tomorrow with specter and probably ancient healer behind you for 1 hour MOT and you call that ENDURANCE run or take that as proof for anything... OKAY!

 

[TheGodofWiFi]

On 2019-12-11 at 9:38 AM, Miyabi-sama said:

Also who's that guy H3dsh0t?

Some Youtuber who sounds like he's constantly on the verge of bursting into tears due to his nose being caught in a vice.

Edited December 17, 2019 by TheGodofWiFi

[Miyabi-sama]

7 часов назад, TheGodofWiFi сказал:

Some Youtuber who sounds like he's constantly on the verge of bursting into tears due to his nose being caught in a vice.

Still better than "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWRITE hello and welcome..."

[TheGodofWiFi]

44 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Still better than "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWRITE hello and welcome..."

At least that only happens at the start of Brozimes videos. Headshot’s voice stays the same for the entire video duration.

[Xzorn]

12 hours ago, Benour said:

So you camped this very well known spot with banshee spamming torid/silence like there is no tomorrow with specter and probably ancient healer behind you for 1 hour MOT and you call that ENDURANCE run or take that as proof for anything... OKAY!

 

You could probably have looked for a green aura to see if I used an Ancient Healer. Pretty easy to tell.

I already explained to the other player why Banshee has to camp when Nullifiers are in the map and it's hardly exclusive to her.

Also, that wasn't an Endurance run. That was just a pre-test before I did the actual lvl 300 run which was also without a Ancient Healer. I purposely try not to use them in runs because what I'm interested in is the build's performance and Ancient Healers just make that take longer. 2-3 hours Solo is already too damn long to test a build.

[___Operator___]

19 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

You could probably have looked for a green aura to see if I used an Ancient Healer. Pretty easy to tell.

I already explained to the other player why Banshee has to camp when Nullifiers are in the map and it's hardly exclusive to her.

Also, that wasn't an Endurance run. That was just a pre-test before I did the actual lvl 300 run which was also without a Ancient Healer. I purposely try not to use them in runs because what I'm interested in is the build's performance and Ancient Healers just make that take longer. 2-3 hours Solo is already too damn long to test a build.

As others have stated, you stayed in one spot that's known for making "endurance" runs relatively easily regardless of level due to the nature of said spot.  I'd argue you'd get exactly the same results with the same setup if you took out banshee and replaced her with another frame. It's not really a demonstration of how good her kit is but of how to effectively camp/cheese high levels.

[Xzorn]

22 minutes ago, Monochromeatic said:

As others have stated, you stayed in one spot that's known for making "endurance" runs relatively easily regardless of level due to the nature of said spot.  I'd argue you'd get exactly the same results with the same setup if you took out banshee and replaced her with another frame. It's not really a demonstration of how good her kit is but of how to effectively camp/cheese high levels.

 

N-U-L-L-I-F-I-E-R-S

Spell it nice and bold so maybe it's not missed this time. Nullifiers are the key difference between certain frame camping heavily or not because certain frames cannot deal with them any other way while others can eat their damage, distract them or block their shots. Though even the most durable frames will succumb to Nullifiers.

Please take note the difference in playstyle on my Trinity Void run....

Spoiler

 

Now take note of my Volt Void run...

Spoiler

 

Here's Rhino going full melee brawler on Kuva Grineer...

Spoiler

 

 

It has nothing do do with "Errr your a camper what you say means nothing" It has to do with a frame's ability to deal with Nullifiers and how they either avoid or handle damage intake. I wish I had my lvl 300 Nyx run from back in the day since she would have been the perfect example of avoidance that worked against everything.

Banshee has to camp to get anywhere if there's Nullifiers. If there aren't then she can run back and forth. That's simply how she plays. It should be pretty obvious that trying to make her play any other way doesn't help. I'm not trying to demonstrate her kit or say anything else other than that.

It should also be pretty obvious to most why the eHP + DPS meta went into full swing by now and Nullifiers were the first step. Players don't want to camp. I don't want to. I try not to but that's the only method some frames have due to Immunity crap designs. Talk to DE about it. I didn't make the game this way.

[___Operator___]

5 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

N-U-L-L-I-F-I-E-R-S

Spell it nice and bold so maybe it's not missed this time. Nullifiers are the key difference between certain frame camping heavily or not because certain frames cannot deal with them any other way while others can eat their damage, distract them or block their shots. Though even the most durable frames will succumb to Nullifiers.

Please take note the difference in playstyle on my Trinity Void run....

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Now take note of my Volt Void run...

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Here's Rhino going full melee brawler on Kuva Grineer...

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

It has nothing do do with "Errr your a camper what you say means nothing" It has to do with a frame's ability to deal with Nullifiers and how they either avoid or handle damage intake. I wish I had my lvl 300 Nyx run from back in the day since she would have been the perfect example of avoidance that worked against everything.

Banshee has to camp to get anywhere if there's Nullifiers. If there aren't then she can run back and forth. That's simply how she plays. It should be pretty obvious that trying to make her play any other way doesn't help. I'm not trying to demonstrate her kit or say anything else other than that.

It should also be pretty obvious to most why the eHP + DPS meta went into full swing by now and Nullifiers were the first step. Players don't want to camp. I don't want to. I try not to but that's the only method some frames have due to Immunity crap designs. Talk to DE about it. I didn't make the game this way.

"OMG nullifiers are so difficult"

You know you can just pop into operator mode and just delete them right? You are trying to make out as though nullifiers  have no counter at  all even though there are so many work around's, pox, magus lockodown, any beam weapon, zarr, nightwave napalm, torid. I've done Hour+ arbs runs with these setups and have never encountered an issue dealing with nullifiers even when stacked with arbs drones and ancients.

Your entire point of posting was that Banshee needed no changes at all and that everyone just needs to adapt to the "playstyle" then you later go on to say you don't want to camp but its the only choice you got. You base your argument on camping then later go on to rebut the very same statement.

[Xzorn]

12 minutes ago, Monochromeatic said:

You know you can just pop into operator mode and just delete them right?

Tell me more.

17 minutes ago, Monochromeatic said:

pox

Nope. shot, dead.

17 minutes ago, Monochromeatic said:

magus lockodown

Risky. Lockdown range is just slightly more than the bubble range and hope you don't miss and there's no active buffs on your frame.
You securely stopped one. Only 200 to go.

22 minutes ago, Monochromeatic said:

any beam weapon

Nope, shot, dead.

23 minutes ago, Monochromeatic said:

zarr

Unless it's Rad and hits surrounding enemies; nope dead again.

24 minutes ago, Monochromeatic said:

nightwave napalm

Bottleneck on corners or dead. (Camping)

24 minutes ago, Monochromeatic said:

torid

Bottleneck on corners or Rad otherwise dead. (Camping)

 

I've done Endurance runs for 6 years. That's all I've ever enjoyed in this game and why I haven't played much in the past year.
Think I haven't tried these things? I've seen what they can do far too many times to count. It's simply a matter of probability that you will die.

Arbitration Survival scales slower than normal endless missions even after they changed the scaling to exponential by 2 hours it's lvl 220 Vs lvl 370. I can still sleep through lvl 220 on a lot of frames. Note that most my runs were before Adaptation which is partially why I stopped doing them. That mod pretty much added an hour to my runs. It was a stupid and unnecessary mod that only served to make the eHP gap in the game worse.

53 minutes ago, Monochromeatic said:

Your entire point of posting was that Banshee needed no changes at all and that everyone just needs to adapt to the "playstyle" then you later go on to say you don't want to camp but its the only choice you got. You base your argument on camping then later go on to rebut the very same statement.

My original post was to simply say don't play Banshee like that then use it as an argument for a rework.
The point of the picture was to show all that Defensive modding was pointless.
Not wanting to camp and having to camp to perform at high levels are different things. I've three times over said she does not need to camp unless there are Nullifiers. I've also said nothing about being against any changes. Rather I blame the game design. Banshee seem to work fine before the Immune enemies showed up. She in fact still works just like she always has against Grineer which is why that video is funny claiming she's out of date.

[___Operator___]

5 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Quote

If you can't kill nullifiers with any of those things then its user error on your behalf. You have an immortal space child that has an instant CC that works on enemies immune to warframe powers can travel massive distances easily and with the right amp can delete a nullifier bubble in a second, scaling damage, turn invisible and you are not capable of killing nullifiers with that? 

[DeeDeetheSpy]

Back to Banshee and not so much crazy long endurance runs:

Something else I wished for is an ability like Void Hunter from Naramon or the Codex/Sims Scanner... Or in a pinch have the Sonar sensitive areas be able to be seen through walls like how Zenith does with head shots (I still am annoyed that DE changed that gun from the more full body visibility that Narmon and the scanners had. Mainly because on a client that I am lagging with the host, the dots get sketchy and bouncy)

I know one person in this thread doesn't want any synergy, personally though I do like a kit to work as a concert. Right now though, Banshee's kit does not. Even if it was something like Sound Quake and Sonic Boom always hits the Sonar Dots and count as finisher damage so to be boosted by silence or something crazy like that. I mean, heck, want to keep her squish, make anything she faces be just as squish.

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by DeeDeetheSpy

[Xzorn]

12 hours ago, Monochromeatic said:

If you can't kill nullifiers with any of those things then its user error on your behalf. You have an immortal space child that has an instant CC that works on enemies immune to warframe powers can travel massive distances easily and with the right amp can delete a nullifier bubble in a second, scaling damage, turn invisible and you are not capable of killing nullifiers with that? 

 

When did I say there was a problem killing them?

The entire point is they will kill you and there are only a few select tactics to insure that does not happen. One thing you mentioned partially works and the other two involve camping, the rest you will die so one out of "many work arounds" actually even works.

....I'm still waiting to hear how Operators delete lvl 300 Nullifiers or even lvl 140. I'd esp like to know if this magic trick works 5 times a minute.

The hard part is staying alive not killing; always has been.
Banshee's kit has 0 answers to Nullifiers like many frames. Thus she must camp if you want to securely stay alive. Trying to discredit me for camping against high level Nullifiers with such a frame just shows ignorance in the accuser far as I'm concerned. I'll be awaiting something outside typing as proof to otherwise.

[DeeDeetheSpy]

9 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

 

The hard part is staying alive not killing; always has been.
Banshee's kit has 0 answers to Nullifiers like many frames.

Thing I like about having accracy debuff be part of Banshee's kit. Maybe, for the kit of Banshee, a projectile push of sorts. While the silence bubble is on, projectiles entering it get pushed slightly off course, which would help with Nulls and others. I mean hypothetically, standing still the projectiles will all just keep going around her unless a projectile that was going to miss anyways is pushed into her or she jumps into one. Then those using hit scan weapons in the bubble have their accuracy reduced. Kinda to denote that hit scan weapons are faster bullets and harder to deflect.

Bubble size and Duration  around Banshee are obvious, then have power strength control how much projectile diversion and how big of an -acc debuff is applied. Have a minimum of a circle on the ground so we know where the freakin' edge is and can dance some to cause enemies to go in and out of it, doing that stun CC, and higher graphic settings have a water ripple effect because that looks a bit like sound waves with a very translucent walls?

[HAYABU5A]

new passive using sound theme

Harmonic Shield Modulation (frequency settings of shield emitters)

basically a shield gate (an instance of damage cannot exceed banshees shield in one instance) and denial of all shield bypass effects (toxin,slash) etc

 

her 1 is radial, slamdown vertical from above, lockdown for enemies that are rag immune

her 3 has adjustable bandwidth range and pulse (like ivaras arrows, vauban mines) u can cycle on the fly the range and freq of silence stun

her 4 could become channeled turrets (speaker turret enplacements or a void wraith sentries), damage output increases as nearby teammates power usage increases (aka turrets fueled by active team play)

[DeeDeetheSpy]

Another thought:

The Banshee, the myth not the frame, was a herald of death and marked it with frightening screams.

 

Perhaps a linked concept for Silence. First, change it's name. Lets say, "Death Wail". Make the sound effect for it start "screamy" but quickly fade as if it's an ultra-pitched noise that cause enemies to grab their head (but not annoy players)... Then every time an enemy is killed it generates a "fear" effect like what Necros and Raksha Kubrows do centered on that enemy for like... 2-3 seconds. The augment is changed to this that instead of fear it refreshes the "grab head and be open to finishers" CC and be akin more to the spread effect of Equinox's sleep.

 

This wont solve the problem with Nullifiers that has been brought up over and over again... But I honestly think that enemy needs a rework too.

[Raqiya]

15 minutes ago, DeeDeetheSpy said:

Another thought:

The Banshee, the myth not the frame, was a herald of death and marked it with frightening screams.

 

Perhaps a linked concept for Silence. First, change it's name. Lets say, "Death Wail". Make the sound effect for it start "screamy" but quickly fade as if it's an ultra-pitched noise that cause enemies to grab their head (but not annoy players)... Then every time an enemy is killed it generates a "fear" effect like what Necros and Raksha Kubrows do centered on that enemy for like... 2-3 seconds. The augment is changed to this that instead of fear it refreshes the "grab head and be open to finishers" CC and be akin more to the spread effect of Equinox's sleep.

 

This wont solve the problem with Nullifiers that has been brought up over and over again... But I honestly think that enemy needs a rework too.

The fear part sounds annoying but i do vouch for this. I had an idea similar to to this to replace her first ability and free up silence for a new ability, so yeah i like the idea.

[DeeDeetheSpy]

27 minutes ago, Raqiya said:

The fear part sounds annoying but i do vouch for this. I had an idea similar to to this to replace her first ability and free up silence for a new ability, so yeah i like the idea.

I know there is a "run for cover" AI code in the game because in Exterminates, when you complete the mission the enemies try to run and hide unless you attack them.

I would imagine a fear effect like that. They go into, "Stop attacking and find hiding unless attacked, then attack back."

[Raqiya]

3 minutes ago, DeeDeetheSpy said:

I know there is a "run for cover" AI code in the game because in Exterminates, when you complete the mission the enemies try to run and hide unless you attack them.

I would imagine a fear effect like that. They go into, "Stop attacking and find hiding unless attacked, then attack back."

I can imagine that'll make landing Sonar's more difficult.