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Guns compared to Melee are trash.


Rubbertubtub01
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Why bother going for headshots with guns when I can get a way higher damage output by spamming E.

I think weapons that require aim should get a buff so that they are actually viable when compared to melee. Such as Snipers, bows and rifles. 

I would love to use the Sybaris Prime at high level, but I have to put a whole mag into their head before they die. So why bother when I can just put the enemies into a blender with melee?

What are your thoughts?

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9 minutes ago, Rubbertubtub01 said:

Well let's just say lvl 100.

Would you say this is where guns start to drop off being viable and melee keeps on going?

Most of my guns contend well for level 100 enemies and most level 100 content isnt swarming with bombards and gunners who are the benchmark unit for damage testing even though less common the majority of the units you see 

Curoristy does have me what is your build for the sybaris prime?

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I'm not online right now, and haven't used the Sybaris Prime in a while since it just can't keep up so I can't remember what the build was. I have a riven for it too. 

I'm pretty sure I tested in the Simulacrum and got it to as high of a damage output as I could get it with the riven. Not the best riven but it's alright. 

But i'm just saying that it's still decent at level 100 but that's where it and many other guns start to fall off and stop being viable past that. 

If I was doing a long Kuva survival and the enemies started to go over lvl 200 then there's no real point in using guns for anything other than maybe distributing status. 

Unless i'm going to bring in rubico prime with seeking shuriken to keep 1 shotting things. But i'm sure you can agree that melee is obviously more viable than guns at lvl 200.

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There's a fairly simple reason why Melee weapons generally have a higher damage output than guns.

Image result for indiana jones shoots swordsman gif

Guns have a longer range. Even most shotguns. That decreases the time to kill, potentially by a significant amount, when one takes into consideration the downtime of having to approach the enemy. This in turn potentially leaves the player at great risk, because as above - enemies have guns and can shoot you during the dead window of your approach. Even with frontal damage immunity from blocking, that only helps you during the approach - you're also vulnerable whilst attacking, and vulnerable from any angle that isn't covered by blocking. Not to mention some enemies have CC abilities that work within a certain range, which all Melee's fall into.

 

Also, most of my ranged arsenal can absolutely perform at level 100, so that much isn't a problem as far as I'm concerned. It's lower than my Melee weapon, yes, but the other benefits make up for it.

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1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

Guns have a longer range. Even most shotguns.

I agreed mate with u, but the problem with the game is that DEVS are limit the range for every weapon only for "Tennos" this time, but they didn't do same for enemies in the game, for example u can be hitted from long long range by Grineer or Corpuses with just 1 hit and u will be dead instantly, their weapons doesn't have "Falloff".

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3 minutes ago, Rubbertubtub01 said:

I'm not online right now, and haven't used the Sybaris Prime in a while since it just can't keep up so I can't remember what the build was. I have a riven for it too. 

I'm pretty sure I tested in the Simulacrum and got it to as high of a damage output as I could get it with the riven. Not the best riven but it's alright. 

But i'm just saying that it's still decent at level 100 but that's where it and many other guns start to fall off and stop being viable past that. 

If I was doing a long Kuva survival and the enemies started to go over lvl 200 then there's no real point in using guns for anything other than maybe distributing status. 

Unless i'm going to bring in rubico prime with seeking shuriken to keep 1 shotting things. But i'm sure you can agree that melee is obviously more viable than guns at lvl 200.

Well you also have to bear in mind DE doesnt craft around high level  iirc the highest level mission they toss at is us is level 90-100 at around level 100 weapons start falling off yes the only reason melee gotten so strong is all the system and mod changes it got for example the power boost of true steel and its umbral versions are now 120% and 220% respectively. That allows most exalted and some melee weapons reach past 100% crit chance toss in weeping wounds and condition overload or bloodrush and yeah its a blender most the time and the most likely the main reason melee is so upfront powerful is that basic attacks do not scale with combo unless your using those 2 acolyte mods or the gladiators set. I feel weapon mods need a pass over to bring them up to date with most things for consistency sake as alot of mods have scuffed values due to lack of use or attention. 

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3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

snip

Guns can only shoot 1 enemy at a time except if they line up with punch through. Whereas melee can blend up 10 enemies at once. And most of the time, there is 10 enemies around you, not just 1.

Barely any of the tiles have a range long enough to make guns better than melee past level 100. Also if you're going to argue that you're going to get shot during your approach, and you're vulnerable while attacking, it's not like your invulnerable while shooting guns. If anything you're moving while using melee and standing still so you can aim with guns, which makes you more vulnerable to use guns rather than melee. 

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12 minutes ago, seprent said:

Well you also have to bear in mind DE doesnt craft around high level  iirc the highest level mission they toss at is us is level 90-100 at around level 100 weapons start falling off yes the only reason melee gotten so strong is all the system and mod changes it got for example the power boost of true steel and its umbral versions are now 120% and 220% respectively. That allows most exalted and some melee weapons reach past 100% crit chance toss in weeping wounds and condition overload or bloodrush and yeah its a blender most the time and the most likely the main reason melee is so upfront powerful is that basic attacks do not scale with combo unless your using those 2 acolyte mods or the gladiators set. I feel weapon mods need a pass over to bring them up to date with most things for consistency sake as alot of mods have scuffed values due to lack of use or attention. 

Yes the ranged weapon mods need a pass over. I have to rely on a crit that isn't 100% chance to be able to 1 shot lvl 100 enemies. (Unless i've got a riven to get over 100%). So If i don't crit I have to take another shot, whereas melee weapons are sent straight to red crits. And if you don't 1 hit with melee, you don't have to aim and shoot again, they just get blended up with the next melee hit that comes less than half a second later. 

Edited by Rubbertubtub01
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Snipers you say?

IFATMuM.jpg

Try this with melee. I'll hint for ya. Use a stealth frame or don't even bother.

Melee generally offers some perk for the disadvantage of being melee. In Warframe that was damage output which only ever worked for certain frames with massive eHP pools in the first place. Even with auto-parry that's still generally the case. Melee just doesn't scale well because staying alive becomes more important.

It's also why the "Lifted" status is so stupid. What you're hitting in melee isn't the danger. It's what's shooting you in the back.

Lvl 100? Who cares. Spin in circles with Ignis. Everything dies in a strong breeze at that level.

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1 minute ago, Rubbertubtub01 said:

Guns can only shoot 1 enemy at a time except if they line up with punch through. Whereas melee can blend up 10 enemies at once. And most of the time, there is 10 enemies around you, not just 1.

Barely any of the tiles have a range long enough to make guns better than melee past level 100. Also if you're going to argue that you're going to get shot during your approach, and you're vulnerable while attacking, it's not like your invulnerable while shooting guns. If anything you're moving while using melee and standing still so you can aim with guns, which makes you more vulnerable to use guns rather than melee. 

There's a bunch of areas large enough. Most tilesets have a couple common tiles, up to and including corridors. Different tilesets definitely have different average ranges (Uranus is a lot more compact than Jupiter) Bear in mind you're not just dealing with enemies immediately around you, but enemies incoming. Those 10 enemies are relatively unlikely to all conveniently be within 8 metres tops of you. Also, Lenz exists, as do many other AoE weapons.

Also, you shouldn't be standing dead still whilst using guns most of the time, it's possible to aim whilst on the go.

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1 minute ago, Xzorn said:

Snipers you say?

IFATMuM.jpg

Try this with melee. I'll hint for ya. Use a stealth frame or don't even bother.

Melee generally offers some perk for the disadvantage of being melee. In Warframe that was damage output which only ever worked for certain frames with massive eHP pools in the first place. Even with auto-parry that's still generally the case. Melee just doesn't scale well because staying alive becomes more important.

It's also why the "Lifted" status is so stupid. What you're hitting in melee isn't the danger. It's what's shooting you in the back.

Lvl 100? Who cares. Spin in circles with Ignis. Everything dies in a strong breeze at that level.

You're using the lanka than can only shoot once every 2 seconds. And by the looks of the enemies remaining health, you're going to have to 6 shot it. And that's only a light unit. 

And if you're using invis you get a melee bonus anyway. Get your melee combo count up and you'll mince that enemy in no time.

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3 minutes ago, Rubbertubtub01 said:

You're using the lanka than can only shoot once every 2 seconds. And by the looks of the enemies remaining health, you're going to have to 6 shot it. And that's only a light unit. 

And if you're using invis you get a melee bonus anyway. Get your melee combo count up and you'll mince that enemy in no time.

At that level, you die if they look at you funny.

Do you really want to walk up to them?

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5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

There's a bunch of areas large enough. Most tilesets have a couple common tiles, up to and including corridors. Different tilesets definitely have different average ranges (Uranus is a lot more compact than Jupiter) Bear in mind you're not just dealing with enemies immediately around you, but enemies incoming. Those 10 enemies are relatively unlikely to all conveniently be within 8 metres tops of you. Also, Lenz exists, as do many other AoE weapons.

Also, you shouldn't be standing dead still whilst using guns most of the time, it's possible to aim whilst on the go.

I feel like you know that melee is obviously a lot better than guns.

May I ask what method other than Saryn spores you use to go 8 rounds on ESO? Cause I know I melee spam, Don't even bother using guns cause I know my efficiency will drop.

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Just now, Rubbertubtub01 said:

I feel like you know that melee is obviously a lot better than guns.

May I ask what method other than Saryn spores you use to go 8 rounds on ESO? Cause I know I melee spam, Don't even bother using guns cause I know my efficiency will drop.

I don't usually run ESO, it's a somewhat poorly designed gamemode and I get bored of it too fast. Although I have had good results with Limbo and Pyrana Prime.

 

In terms of DPS, yes, Melee is better. Again, that's the point - it's limited by its range, so it has DPS to compensate, and vice versa. I've been using a Reaper Prime/Kuva Drakgoon setup of late - mixing based on range. I do, in fact, use the Reaper when I need a big burst of DPS or when swarmed, but Kuva Drakgoon works much better for lighter enemies in most cases because it has more range, so I don't waste time traversing when I could be dealing damage.

1 minute ago, Rubbertubtub01 said:

If you're stealth you'll most certainly walk up to them, so you can 1 shot them with a juicy red crit heavy attack.

The entire game is broken at that point. Which is why the devs don't balance at it anyway.

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2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I don't usually run ESO, it's a somewhat poorly designed gamemode and I get bored of it too fast. Although I have had good results with Limbo and Pyrana Prime.

 

In terms of DPS, yes, Melee is better. Again, that's the point - it's limited by its range, so it has DPS to compensate, and vice versa. I've been using a Reaper Prime/Kuva Drakgoon setup of late - mixing based on range. I do, in fact, use the Reaper when I need a big burst of DPS or when swarmed, but Kuva Drakgoon works much better for lighter enemies in most cases because it has more range, so I don't waste time traversing when I could be dealing damage.

The only weapons you can use at range while maintaining damage are snipers. Which is for shooting 1 enemy at a time. But lets say the Soma Prime and most other rifles. You need to put heavy cal on them to give it a viable amount of damage which isn't really viable at lvl 100. and there goes it's ranged DPS since you hit 1/10 shots. Beam weapons have a set range and a lower DPS than melee, so there goes those weapons. The list goes on.

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The problem isn't that guns are weaker than melee, that isn't true for several guns.

The issue is that many guns are so utterly awful that they are complete jokes, Stug anyone?

How about the Bronco, the Panthera, the Veldt, the Hema, the Flux Rifle, the Talons or the Tysis?

I could go on, but the real problem is that Guns are now in the same position that melee was in before Phase 2 dropped, many of them have outdated or mediocre stat-lines that weren't even good when the weapons were new.

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Just now, Rubbertubtub01 said:

The only weapons you can use at range while maintaining damage are snipers. Which is for shooting 1 enemy at a time. But lets say the Soma Prime and most other rifles. You need to put heavy cal on them to give it a viable amount of damage which isn't really viable at lvl 100. and there goes it's ranged DPS since you hit 1/10 shots. Beam weapons have a set range and a lower DPS than melee, so there goes those weapons. The list goes on.

I... feel like you're misbuilding your weapons if you feel the need to throw heavy caliber on anything. I'm fairly sure I don't use that mod on anything. Even Soma Prime.

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Just now, Loza03 said:

I... feel like you're misbuilding your weapons if you feel the need to throw heavy caliber on anything. I'm fairly sure I don't use that mod on anything. Even Soma Prime.

But do you take a Some Prime into a sortie? No, because it's not viable.

If you have a Some Prime build that shreds level 100 enemies, Please, share. 

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16 minutes ago, Rubbertubtub01 said:

But do you take a Some Prime into a sortie? No, because it's not viable.

If you have a Some Prime build that shreds level 100 enemies, Please, share. 

Soma Prime is a relic from the past. Try Acceltra and then say again that it struggles against level 100 enemies 😉

Also Vay Hek would like to have a word with you about guns being trash compared to melee ^^

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Just now, Rubbertubtub01 said:

But do you take a Some Prime into a sortie? No, because it's not viable.

If you have a Some Prime build that shreds level 100 enemies, Please, share. 

ndisYZR.jpg

Believe it or not, my main issue was ammo. DPS was just fine. Easily solved with Carrier or an ammo mutator in the Exilus. Still made it through with some good trigger discipline.

O8c4CAu.jpg

My Converted Lich had as much faith in me as you did OP:

XeNhvAT.jpg

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