(PC) Empyrean: Economy Feedback Megathread

[OmegaVoid]

Asterite has been the big bottleneck for me. Needz moar plz!

Titanium also starting to be a problem, though less so than Asterite.

I'm getting to a point now of having a lot of excess Dirac, as my Grid is maxed, the Avionics I'm using are ranked up, and I get a lot of Wreckage which is inferior to what I already have, which must be scrapped to preserve free Wreckage slots... yielding yet more Dirac.

Perhaps we could be given a choice to scrap Wreckage for either Dirac or resources?

Or perhaps there could be a way to trade-in surplus Dirac for other resources?

[Duality52]

Why can't we cancel repairs on our Wreckages? Not the ones in progress after you contribute the necessary resources, but similar to Clan Research you donated some resources but you can't cancel/refund the resources back.

I also don't understand this:

21 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

maintains the risk vs reward of repairing Wreckage,

Why should we be punished around something uncontrollable, especially with something as crucial as the equivalent of Mod Capacity (Vidar Reactors)? Why can't we use our Dirac to upgrade the Components/Armaments even if we get some sort of a bad roll on the stats?

Not only that, but is there something wrong with reducing the cost of the Titanium and Asterite for Mk III Lavan and Vidar parts in particular? The issue of Vacuum in Railjack is another repeated argument of universal vacuum.

[Borg1611]

I'm sure you can tell by all the feedback already + just looking at the data, but I'll add another comment for the hell of it. Asterite is still extremely awful and a huge bottleneck for repairing. I'm not sure why it isn't a potential bonus reward at the end of missions, I think it not being a potential bonus is a huge factor in why it's behind all the other resources. If you only want it as a drop for some reason, it needs a lot more of an increase than 2x. 

[Vizer_Xeno]

DE, can you make Quellor, Pennant bp & Shedu parts always drop when player kill the target (Galleon/Asteroid base Commander or Captain & Symbilyst on Anomaly Mission)? It's totally frustrating finding those which categorized as common thing with low drop chance (5% for Quellor,Pennant & 0.0 - 2% for each Shedu parts) even i already give up finding Korrudo bp (5% drop chance) from Tusk Thumper Doma from Plains Of Eidolon a long time ago. What i see what you do now is beyond tolerate especially for Shedu parts which only drop from Symbilyst & player must wait for anomaly to show on random node on Veil Proxima. I already do countless mission on anomaly mission also normal mission with extra objective assassination target & it's totally not fun to do this over & over again while the rest what i after is not drop until now. So far i only have a pennant bp & 2x Shedu Receiver from countless time doing this (i using Nekros Desecrate & Ivara's Prowl) & i can't tolerate this any longer because of this. I also heard a lot 'players new bad habbit' because their frustration to get Shedu parts, they do anomaly mission with host & leaving the host (abort mission) because they're not having any single Shedu parts. The biggest issue is the Symbilyst itself because each time i do anomaly mission, i encounter them about 5-7 while the rest is another sentient on the rare occasion i never see them. So i leave the decision to you & i hope you make the best decision on this one.

[Sohaya-]

400 Dirac as a reward is a joke. With all the wreckage I’m getting, I get 450 Dirac on average per mission just from wreckage. There’s no need for this reward to occupy 20% of reward space for RNG components like house specific engines. Or relic drop chance for that matter. 
Getting parts with decent stats is also ludicrously hard: you’d need to play for 10.5 years to get a good vidar reactor, considering most of them are worse than zetki reactors. Weigh it out: 20-50 avionics for zetki reactors, 50-75 for Lavan, 75-100 for vidar, or something along those lines where if you get a part for x school you know instantly what are it’s strengths and weaknesses and if it’s what you’re looking for. Or better yet, let us fuse Dirac and extra reactors to boost stats so we can slowly progress towards maximum efficiency parts with our growing stockpiles of Dirac and low-roll parts.

Asterite gain is still ridiculously slow. On average I get 40 asterite per mission - per 10 minute session, translating to 6 hours of nonstop grind just to build a reactor. Not all of us have that sort of time on our hands. Increase it to the rate of titanium gain from asteroids at the moment, or add it to end of mission resource bonuses, since that’s the only reason nobody is complaining about titanium gains. Shouldn’t have to take more than two hours of grind for a single material for a part that’s getting replaced eventually- at the very least double that gain, again.

Also, low % chance for a red sentient crate to spawn, only to give a captura scene and a low chance of the Ephemera, on a time limited tile set? I gave up because everyone is resorting to aborting missions to get as many chances for this (and Shedu parts) as possible, but at least the Shedu parts drop fairly often. The ephemera should always drop from the crate considering the effort needed and the amount of people who want the ephemera (a LOT) versus the amount of people who want the captura scenes (less)

Oh, and where is repair cancelling?

Edited January 12, 2020 by RWBY-WhiteRose

[Shonaney]

We get Dirac from mission rewards, scrapn gear or avs, so it is a reward you get more the more you play, why not reward us for our time and help with rng? If we are unlucky with rng gear, allow us to improve it with Dirac or add a trader or add a option to a existing trader to get resources for Dirac

[(PSN)Lollybomb]

Bet it's been said, but I'm going to say it again because it bears repeating.  Repair costs for wreckage are INSANE.

You get a MK3 item from the dojo, it costs 6,000 titanium.  Let's not touch on the fact that as of this writing consoles still get titanium in absolutely pathetic amounts.  You pickup a MK3 piece of wreckage.  Ok, it's wreckage, so it's a damaged item, right?  So why in the whole of the origin system does a damaged item take 250% the materials cost of a brand new item???  15,000 titanium!  Trying to upgrade in steps, a logical course of action in nearly any other game is actively punished with the absurd build costs.  Anything less than MK3 items is a complete waste of time.

[PurrrningBoop]

I think it was mentioned atleast a couple of times, but Neo relics as a reward are ewww. When you get one, the other two reward slots are occupied by common resources 99% of the time.

[Yehudiel]

I know i'm gonna get slammed for this but: A penalty for getting your railjack destroyed.

What I find boring about railjack is you're just basically on an immortal ship that as long as you have ammo for your omni, you're good. You basically make your ship stronger and tankier for nothing. No adrenaline moments. Feels like a chore to do.

Maybe add a penalty for repairs after you fail a mission, where you need to spend some basic resources to fly your ship again. This will also make it so that there will be a lot of crew to go around (since some would be forced to farm to repair their ship). And this won't matter much if you have a ton of said resources already, but you still have that monkaS moments when those resoures are getting low. Also make the countdown for catastrophic failure 20-30 seconds to give a sense of urgency. Also this will make it so that new ships that barely has any upgrades doesn't get taken to veil immediately. I literally see ships with 2k HP and Mk I sideguns on the veil.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Yehudiel

[HyokaChan]

8 minutes ago, Yehudiel said:

I know i'm gonna get slammed for this but: A penalty for getting your railjack destroyed.

Hell to the no. If new railjacks in the future are as cardboard as they are now, they'll never make it out of the infinite loop of losing due to bad railjack and/or being forced into the archwing-only meta.

As it is now, the new player railjack experience is just lose all revolite > broke ship, discover archwing-only meta, play only that until railjack is fixed up or simply never host a game. 

You're going to have to implement fixes for that before even thinking of trying a penalty.

[Yehudiel]

1 minute ago, HyokaChan said:

Hell to the no. If new railjacks in the future are as cardboard as they are now, they'll never make it out of the infinite loop of losing due to bad railjack and/or being forced into the archwing-only meta.

If the railjack feels cardboard, it's in the wrong tier of mission, not at all ready for that tier. This is what i want to discourage hence there should be a penalty for railjack getting destroyed. About the Archwing Only meta, I 100% agree with you, that's why on a separate thread (as i feel it's not economy related) I said this:


|f you're gonna rebalance Archwing, make it so that it's still hard to survive outside your ship, the railjack is not a carrier that spits out tiny ships and be left without a crew. If the idea of being a carrier is so appealing, maybe make a battle avionic for that, something along that lines that it spawns (or resurrects?) one ship per 150 flux with a maximum number of 3 fighters.

 

(i don't know how to quote from a separate thread sorry)

[HyokaChan]

Just now, Yehudiel said:

If the railjack feels cardboard, it's in the wrong tier of mission, not at all ready for that tier. This is what i want to discourage hence there should be a penalty for railjack getting destroyed. About the Archwing Only meta, I 100% agree with you, that's why on a separate thread (as i feel it's not economy related) I said this:\

I'm talking about NEW railjacks IN EARTH. That's as low tier as you can get, and they still get shredded because unless you have very high piloting (you don't, new player experience, remember?) you can't really dodge a crewship missile in railjack without just flying 30km away.

[Yehudiel]

1 minute ago, HyokaChan said:

I'm talking about NEW railjacks IN EARTH. That's as low tier as you can get, and they still get shredded because unless you have very high piloting (you don't, new player experience, remember?) you can't really dodge a crewship missile in railjack without just flying 30km away.

Yep, that's intentional, to encourage new players to play crew members first and get necessary upgrade parts before taking out their railjack. At the same time, it trains their intrinsics and the player's skill itself. Giving him grasp of basic things of what to do inside the ship. No triumph if there's no challenge to overcome. Remember they can already be crew members even before they build their ships so piloting 3 or something won't have been a problem if they are preparing to build their own ship.

[Lers]

27 minutes ago, Yehudiel said:

Yep, that's intentional, to encourage new players to play crew members first and get necessary upgrade parts before taking out their railjack. At the same time, it trains their intrinsics and the player's skill itself. Giving him grasp of basic things of what to do inside the ship. No triumph if there's no challenge to overcome. Remember they can already be crew members even before they build their ships so piloting 3 or something won't have been a problem if they are preparing to build their own ship.

If the gear provided cant handle starting level enemies without cheesing elements of the mode, or relying on people with better gear, then thats just bad design.

When I started out, railjack was a glorified archwing mission since the turrets did basically no damage, and there werent people with better gear.

[Yehudiel]

10 minutes ago, Lers said:

If the gear provided cant handle starting level enemies without cheesing elements of the mode, or relying on people with better gear, then thats just bad design.

When I started out, railjack was a glorified archwing mission since the turrets did basically no damage, and there werent people with better gear.

When railjack was initially released, i would get your point that it's bad design. But let's face the reality here that railjack already is released and people have access to better parts even before they complete their ship.

Edit: And lore-wise, i think it's immersive since you made a ship from salvaged broken parts scattered across the system. Even if the ship was technologically superior, the parts that you have at the time would've been rickety hence it can't fight toe to toe with modern ships.

But I want to get away from this starting ship arguement as i don't really care much about that. I have said my points and counterpoints can and should be made.
I want to start discussion or see the counter-arguments with wanting to have penalty when railjack is destroyed. Maybe my mind can be swayed with what i think would be a valid counter argument.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Yehudiel

[HyokaChan]

13 minutes ago, Yehudiel said:

But I want to get away from this starting ship arguement as i don't really care much about that. I have said my points and counterpoints can and should be made.
I want to start discussion or see the counter-arguments with wanting to have penalty when railjack is destroyed. Maybe my mind can be swayed with what i think would be a valid counter argument.

Okay, I'll start with this: No game mode has a penalty for failing, other than wasting any entry costs (and nowadays not even that gets taken away in most cases). This is also partly to help anyone who host-migrates from being completely screwed. Now, in Railjack, host migration won't tax you, because that's not your railjack in the first place. However, for a host that has all their crew host migrate, they're left to solo. Then they will be forced to abort, because just trying to solo comes with a much higher risk now than playing it safe.

Edited January 13, 2020 by HyokaChan

[Lers]

20 minutes ago, Yehudiel said:

When railjack was initially released, i would get your point that it's bad design. But let's face the reality here that railjack already is released and people have access to better parts even before they complete their ship.

Edit: And lore-wise, i think it's immersive since you made a ship from salvaged broken parts scattered across the system. Even if the ship was technologically superior, the parts that you have at the time would've been rickety hence it can't fight toe to toe with modern ships.

But I want to get away from this starting ship arguement as i don't really care much about that. I have said my points and counterpoints can and should be made.
I want to start discussion or see the counter-arguments with wanting to have penalty when railjack is destroyed. Maybe my mind can be swayed with what i think would be a valid counter argument.

Alright then. My argument is: why?

Sooner or later we'll be swimming in resources. No matter how much you penalize death, it will only impact people that are still in the gearing up phase, which is already a painful enough experience as is.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Lers

[Yehudiel]

21 minutes ago, HyokaChan said:

Okay, I'll start with this: No game mode has a penalty for failing, other than wasting any entry costs (and nowadays not even that gets taken away in most cases). This is also partly to help anyone who host-migrates from being completely screwed. Now, in Railjack, host migration won't tax you, because that's not your railjack in the first place. However, for a host that has all their crew host migrate, they're left to solo. Then they will be forced to abort, because just trying to solo comes with a much higher risk now than playing it safe.

New crew members can still enter when that happens. But yes you made me think of aborting mission rather than lose the ship (Although it is done and widely accepted in hardcore path of exile, or RF online bellato on the verge of losing his mech, i still dont want it to be the case in warframe) Maybe the workaround for this is you still get at least the avionics and none of the resources and parts if you fail, you get absolutely nothing if you abort or get disconnected or game crashed (I added dc and crash because people can just abuse alt + f4 or disconnecting internet and call not within the realm of aborting a mission)

19 minutes ago, Lers said:

Alright then. My argument is: why?

Sooner or later we'll be swimming in resources. No matter how you penalize death, it will only impact people that are still in the gearing up phase, which is already painful enough experience as is.

Then my proposal for this is the amount of penalty should be around 2-5% the total resources used to make the ship excluding credits. You can still swim in resources but atleast you can't keep failing forever. There are still consequences even if you feel it's minor. Edit: 2-5% of the total resources that is used to make the ship and all it's parts, including asterites, fresnels etc. So the stronger the ship, the more you lose when it gets destroyed, weaker ships will lose more frequently but less resources lost per lose.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Yehudiel

[Lers]

2 minutes ago, Yehudiel said:

New crew members can still enter when that happens. But yes you made me think of aborting mission rather than lose the ship (Although it is done and widely accepted in hardcore path of exile, or RF online bellato on the verge of losing his mech, i still dont want it to be the case in warframe) Maybe the workaround for this is you still get at least the avionics and none of the resources and parts if you fail, you get absolutely nothing if you abort or get disconnected or game crashed (I added dc and crash because people can just abuse alt + f4 or disconnecting internet and call not within the realm of aborting a mission)

Then my proposal for this is the amount of penalty should be around 2-5% the total resources used to make the ship excluding credits. You can still swim in resources but atleast you can't keep failing forever. There are still consequences even if you feel it's minor.

So you would penalize players with more time invested more harshly? From a mechanic point of view that may seem logical, but the outrage would be off the scale.

It would still impact people on the gearing end more, simply because they have bad gear, thus generating failure scenarios more often.

It would also discourage material hoarding since you lose more if you have more.

Its also a great avenue of griefing people by ruining missions.

I am honestly not seeing enough of a gain here for the cons.

[Yehudiel]

34 minutes ago, Lers said:

So you would penalize players with more time invested more harshly? From a mechanic point of view that may seem logical, but the outrage would be off the scale.

Yes, they have strong ship therefore should have less chance to mess up.

34 minutes ago, Lers said:

It would still impact people on the gearing end more, simply because they have bad gear, thus generating failure scenarios more often.

Yes, therefore encouraging them to play as crewmembers more.

34 minutes ago, Lers said:

It would also discourage material hoarding since you lose more if you have more.

This one i disagree, it doesn't discourage it, it's a mechanism to prevent it. A currency sink if you will to prevent players from swimming in resources. The game mode is fun already but if you're swimming in resources, there would be no reason to play it, scarcity of resources would give players that reason.

34 minutes ago, Lers said:

Its also a great avenue of griefing people by ruining missions.

I disagree with this one too, how would one ruin a mission, only thing i can think off is being afk or just doing nothing to progress the mission (and player vote-kick is widely discussed already because of this, but this is another topic)

34 minutes ago, Lers said:

I am honestly not seeing enough of a gain here for the cons.

The gain here is the fear of consequence and the feeling of triumph whenever one overcomes something and above all, immersion. If you are a confident ship captain(host) as it stands now, it means nothing. If you are a confident captain when this mechanic is in place, then it means you and/or your ship is good (making all the farming and effort worthwhile).
Edit on this one: You really made me think man, it's great, i feel like immersion isn't enough in itself since the captain can lose something but the crewmembers can't. I thought of maybe a floof or cosmetic thing that only drops on the captain but that's a sht reward and means nothing plus there's no reason being a captain if you already obtained it. What I arrived in on is this. Your ship has a display or something in the cockpit that shows the number of missions completed with that ship that is visible to your crewmembers, should be large enough that they can see it without approaching too close but not large enough that it basically shouts. It would be ok for crewmembers that doesn't get their number increased coz it's just a number, but there is certain pride in owning a ship or being a captain that completed a thousand missions.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Yehudiel

[ASHERATOR]

I tend to agree the resource and overall drop rates just feel extremely broken in general.  Titanium probably tops my list and although I feel I wasted my time and energy farming it to get the gear I wanted I am still frustrated anytime I think about titanium.  Having to refine which isn't explained anywhere that it will give extra resources is painful. I want to reinforce the comments that the setup discourages any reasonable player from building lower level gear as they work towards the gear they want.  The randomized stuff is pure insanity and not welcome at all.  If you want to increase the grind and use Dirac to slowly increase the stats of gear kind of like what the Lich weapons can do I could almost accept that thought process but this just isn't working.  Abominably low drop rates for non-tradable MR fodder weapons from commanders like the quellor, pennant and in the case of the plains Thumpers korrado just are insulting.

In conclusion the whole system of growing into gear naturally over time and improving it is just incredible broken and the new update feels like I have been punished all over again for all of my numerous hours and hours of hard work by nerfing my weapons that at least gave me the feeling I could fight evenly against the ships with my railjack...It was just starting to feel like squad members were starting to stay on the ship to help instead of doing their own thing in archwings and the "re-balance" has sent them off in archwings again 😞

[Lers]

34 minutes ago, Yehudiel said:

I disagree with this one too, how would one ruin a mission, only thing i can think off is being afk or just doing nothing to progress the mission (and player vote-kick is widely discussed already because of this, but this is another topic)

The gain here is the fear of consequence and the feeling of triumph whenever one overcomes something and above all, immersion. If you are a confident ship captain(host) as it stands now, it means nothing. If you are a confident captain when this mechanic is in place, then it means you and/or your ship is good (making all the farming and effort worthwhile).

One simple example that only works on mid to bad ships: keep flushing the toilet. As soon as revolite runs out its game over.

The risk you run currently is the risk of wasting time and drops. Losing resources basically equals to losing even more time. I see no difference, and it just differs in how much time the game makes us waste.

You call it fear of consequence. I call it a frustration and a waste of time.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Lers

[(PSN)LoneWolf_001]

I have tons of the common 4 resources in Railjack. The issue I have is that my pool of resources is stuck at the dojo while the total stored on the Railjack is a mere 200 in queue for use which has to be found first. It's a hassle and only becomes a problem if you have a "newer" team. Also, the titanium grind is real. at some 15K titanium per part and only  double digits for node drops, it's the only resource I'm actually ever short on. Also, titanium farming requires you to go out and space mine after a mission, it's not practical or fun to aquire as you have to stop combat to...well, mine. I have a real job, I play Warframe to be somewhere else when the work is done, find a better way, better drop rates, more storage, etc for this stuff. 

[Yehudiel]

3 minutes ago, Lers said:

One simple example that only works on mid to bad ships: flush the toilet. As soon as revolite runs out its game over.

It takes a lot already to deplete revolite that if it gets to that point, then the captain just messed up or the ship isn't ready for that mission. 

6 minutes ago, Lers said:

The risk you run currently is the risk of wasting time and drops. Losing resources basically equals to losing even more time. I see no difference, and it just differs in how much time the game makes us waste.

Not so much for those already swimming in resources, and yes that is the point of it encouraging being a crewmember. Remember, the ideal ratio is 1 cap : 3 crew 

10 minutes ago, Lers said:

You call it fear of consequence. I call it a frustration and a waste of time.

This statement can be applied to most games already. Example: In Dark Souls, you die a lot and the consequence is you waste time a lot going back to the boss, it's frustrating. I don't see the point of this argument (i'm not personally attacking you, just want you to elaborate this argument).

[Lers]

3 minutes ago, Yehudiel said:

It takes a lot already to deplete revolite that if it gets to that point, then the captain just messed up or the ship isn't ready for that mission. 

Not so much for those already swimming in resources, and yes that is the point of it encouraging being a crewmember. Remember, the ideal ratio is 1 cap : 3 crew 

This statement can be applied to most games already. Example: In Dark Souls, you die a lot and the consequence is you waste time a lot going back to the boss, it's frustrating. I don't see the point of this argument (i'm not personally attacking you, just want you to elaborate this argument).

It really doesn't take much. If you don't over-gear a given area, and actively engage in combat with reasonable skills you are still going to be breached. Hell, I'm only missing a Zetki Bulkhead and I still get breached every now and then in Veil with good shields and maxed Hull Weave. Its a pretty regular thing in lower areas, even on ships with "okay" gear.

I enjoyed Dark Souls as a challange, and I don't mind if a game hands me my backside. However I don't think you'll find a single person out there that thinks that the serial runs from the bonfire to a fog wall to be anything but a frustration during the learning period of bosses.

On top of that this is not Dark Souls. Its a long term free to play grinding game, relying heavily on positive feedback and power fantasy. Its important to make people feel like they are not wasting their time (too much) with the grind and always comming out with gains worth the time invested. Adding time wasting penalties to a system like this to "put the fear into the players" is a ballsy move to say the least (and basically the reason many people dislike recent decisions made by DE).