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(PC) Empyrean: Economy Feedback Megathread

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10 hours ago, continue said:

The fact that there are useless versions of these mods really reminds me of some of the worst aspects of RNG mods from the beta version of warframe, with none of the fun aspects

Between this and the fact that Battle/Tactical Avionics are competing with mods for avionics capacity, it just feels like a lot of the design process for Empyrean consisted of recycling scrapped mechanics from the base game without ever stopping to consider that they were removed for a reason.

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On 2019-12-13 at 5:54 AM, Stonehenge said:

Okay, i will be quick.

Like a large amount of players, i'm alone in my clan, after being the only active player.

The basic upgrades (for turrets, reactor, etc) are designed to be absolutely necessary past the 4 or 5 first skirmish.

And, did you even realize what you are demanding from players in terms of grind ?

I mean, really. Did you even try ? Look at those numbers, it's completely insane.

 

I wont even bother to upgrade anything at this stage, and as a result, i wont be able to play this in higher levels until some day you make a reasonnable ressource-gated system. Well, somehow that's a relief. See you next year.

With all due respect, I would recommend joining another clan with only a few members.  My clan has less than 10 members.  On my own I have been able to supply all the resources for all the research needed to build the MK I and II weapons for everyone.  I anticipate being able to do so as well for the MK III versions.  Being in a small clan has distinct advantages when it comes to research.

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I finally feel like I can give constructive feedback now that I'm making MKIII stuff and doing veil missions.

I don't mind the grind for railjack components and weapons.  There aren't very many, it's not like we need to craft 30 of these things.

I think it would be good if the different resources had drastically different drop rates on different planets, and that was clearly communicated to players.  This would allow gating resources to the appropriate level missions, and make it easier to farm a specific resource you need.

I think lowering the barrier to entry for building a railjack would be a bad idea.  Outfitting a railjack properly is difficult (which is fine), and if new players can freely enter that complicated, intimidating system, then figure it out just to realize they need even more material they're not equipped to get, I feel like that would be a bad experience.  Same reason you don't introduce eidolon hunting, focus, arbitrations, etc. until players pass a barrier.  By the time players are comfortable enough with the game to manage a railjack, they'll probably have picked up most of those resources anyway.

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First of all I thank you guys for bringing this update to us to us so soon, but that being said it really does feel rushed to the extreme.

I'll keep my views here short and sweet.

1.More new resources?

You could have just used what we have now since a lot of players are sitting on vaults of Nano Spores/Ferrite/Alloy Plates. It would have been a better choice IMHO to implement these resources into Railjack but, also add in some new ones since It's based in space and an entirely different system. Case in point is, too many new resources.

 

2.In game crafting System.

I personally enjoy going back and forth and working together with a team to make sure that the ship doesn't explode the minute we enter enemy grounds.

But having to continuously craft more and more resources for just Revolite seems a little absurd. I feel like a better way was to have perhaps a Sigma III Part that allowed the ship to Auto-craft Revolite, resulting in a "Pitstop" mechanic perhaps? Having a spot for a Revolite refill station of sorts instead of having to make more every minute I feel like is something a vast number of the player base would want and appreciate.

 

3.Avionics and Railjack Parts.

Before anyone says "Oh don't play WF if you don't like grind", the RNG for parts in Railjack is ridiculous. These I feel like should be fixed stats similar to how Zaw Parts and Kitgun Parts are fixed stats and not RNG. Making the stats of the ship parts we need to continuously upgrade with based in RNG is just absurd.

My final point here is about the drop chances and spawn rates of the UNITS and their Drop Chances for Avionics.

This is all over the place, we now have Lavan/Vidar/Zetki to hunt for, with which Zetki and Vidar being our top choices for the most part. Farming these isn't the problem, it's the spawn chance of the units that have the drop table for these items. I see 1 Elite Cosma Flak for every 30 or so that spawn. Something needs to change in the drop tables for Avionics as well as the spawn rate of the units that carry them.

 

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Please for the love of god, remove the "rare" popup for Cubic Diodes, Carbides, Pustrels and Titanium. No a resource from which you need 15000 is not RARE. Use the old loot in the middle of the screen with tiny text, the one for common resources. This way rare popups can be saved for actual rare resources and avionics...

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Each MK III component needing 15k titanium is a tall ask. It takes a long time to gather and isn't even actively farmed for through the core loop of railjack but it's equivalent of mining but without a mini-game. Just switch on particle ram and scoop through all the space debris after each mission.

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Asterite drop rate seems very off compared to the others. I mean look at this:

YKrNSyr.png

Titanium costs are also insane, compared to drop rates, but because of Asterite it doesn't matter! I can farm up enough Titanium for 5 items when I have got barely a third of the Asterite for a single one. And I have a 1004 of the "rare" Fresnels. What? And this is after a while of farming, so in general I think Asterite should either:

- Drop 10x more. That means I would have about 5k Asterite. I can repair 3.47 items now. After ~2 days of farming with Resource booster. Yeah maybe make that 15x more!

or

- Reduce Asterite costs by 10-15x.

Edited by Bhyd
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Asterite drop rates need a major boost to bring them on par with their other equivalent resources. So far it seems to be one of the rarest things to find. Heck, even those ultra rare resources that only require 20 of them at a time to craft something are easier to get.

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We finally reached the Veil and gathered some wreckage, so I think I can finally give a general feedback about the mode. 

Economy-wise, I think there's a tremendous jump between MKII and MKIII, mostly for Zetki components. 15k Titanium are quite the task, Trachons and Fresnels are deceivingly easy to farm but, while we need them in the thousands, we obtain them in single digits (sometimes 10-15, most of the times). Common resources are fixed, I think, I can gather lots of Titanium to make, at least, all Sigma components (which at the moment are all I have on my Railjack). Drop rates for common resources are better now, and for this I thank you.

The problem is not the grind itself, although it's a bit tough especially if you play in small sessions like me and my clanmates. The real problem is that most of the times, wreckage is good only for Dirac and nothing more; having Zetki MK3 components weaker than Sigma MKI ones isn't fair, in my opinion. Speaking for our personal experience, even if we're going to spend plat for Drones, we haven't found a single MK3 component worthy of our plat, or our farm. 

If I can make any suggestions (which I think have been already said by other Tenno): 

- Give us the possibility to fuse Wreckage, to an extent. For example: we have a MK3 Zetki Reactor with 50 Avionics (and I'm being generous here) and 200 Flux, and a MK3 Lavan Reactor with 200 Avionics and 20 Flux. We can fuse them, raising the stat we need the most, e. g. Zetki with 250 Avionics (or 225) and 200 Flux, or having one component "donate" a quarter of its stats to another. 

- Another idea would be giving a minimum to RNG, so that MK3 components could avoid the unnecessary downside of being worse (far worse) than MKI Sigma parts. 

- That also brings me to school descriptions, which tell us about any school specialty, which in the end aren't respected by stats. 

On a second note, I think, if you want us to experiment, that some recipes should be drastically nerfed, mostly MK3 ones. They're just too expensive, and like that most of us can't just decide to experiment with parts; how could we, if we risk losing an exaggerated amount of hard gained resources? 

This is all I can think of for now, economy-wise. Loving this mode, thanks a lot for your hard work. 

 

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Mostly happy with the economy at the moment.  Couple things could use a tweak:

I've done over 50 runs of the sentient ship and even with loot radar always on I have yet to see 1 single rare cache to even have a chance at ephemera.

 

I've done over 50 points of interest and also have yet to find a rare cache to have a chance at an umbra forma. 

 

If these are supposed to be a draw item to want to continue to run this content past 10 intrinsics the spawn is too low to make it worth the time investment.

Alternately vidar mk 3's, if they are flying to have such a crap drop chance, they shouldn't be able to roll less than a sigma 3.  If this is going to be the only chase component worth having then at least make it so the 2 hours you spent farming for it aren't actually a slap in the face when it finally drops.  

With rng stats you guys need to make them tighter, starting with the lich weapons.  It's fine to hate the best rolls behind low drops but the minimum shouldn't be so low like should be more like 40 to 60 for lich weapons.

Same with these reactors and such.  Shouldn't be able to roll something inferior to dojo research and 10x better than it on same item.  Either it's good or its garbage, don't make it both, its frustrating.  If it's a rare drop it should be passively better than the standard dojo trash item.

Outside of those things I feel like the economy seems pretty good.  I've managed to farm everything else pretty reasonably.

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The amount of Titanium needed for everything, compared to the amount obtainable for a set time of grinding and the reward is absurd.

(EDIT: So i've learned from others how we're intended to farm Titanium, and I see it's flaw... It's set up like open world zones where you're expected to go out and "mine" resources for hours. That's fine, except it's not like open worlds where you can just go in solo take your time and leave. It's tied behind long mission objectives that you spend as long completing as you are able to actually "mine". And you often require a crew that you are holding hostage while you do it. 

Make Free Flight have resources and enemy spawns to simulate the open world scenario to justify mining without being locked behind the "bounties" so you don't reasonably have to bring others.)

-Sigma is the standard Tenno option but it costs so much titanium even at lower mk ranks so it's not even worth crafting to tide you over since it uses up the entire supply. 

- Zetki is the most costly and most obtainable. You can't afford to repair them in order to get geared for the zones needed to get better gear. 

- The cheaper repair houses require insane farm time to acquire but repair cost won't even be relevant anymore by the time you can get them so being the cheapest is pointless. And then you're expected to to craft multiples... because you're not going to get the perfect upgrade the first several times you are lucky enough to even get it to drop. 

Also, I don't know if this is the thread for this, but why is there such a heavy overlap between the high and low stats of the house stats RNG? 

Edited by (PS4)Ozymandias-13-
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The farm for Void Hole is absolutely bonkers.

15% drop from Avionics (99% for 1 drop every 30 kills), ok not so bad.

1.01% drop chance from Exo Outrider (99% for 1 drop every 500 kills)? Ok this kind of sucks but as long as there are enough spawns it will be feasible to get it.

There are 3-6 Exo Outriders per "kill 90" mission. This is ludacris. For a drop that we would have to kill 18k to approach a 99% probability of getting a drop. Madness!

And I understand that Void Hole is the supposed end-game. I still think it's an insane amount of kills for it. My suggestion is to boost the rate of Exo Outriders spawns, though that also essentially nerfs the rate of other Avionics, so maybe just increasing the drop chance to 5% would be more sensible, or making it available to drop from an enemy that isn't so uncommon, or being able to buy it with something. I don't think it's acceptable that the market price for an essential skill is 500 plat lol.

Edited by Bhyd

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Please allow rare reactors to not roll below the zekti capacity. Its painful enough as it is to even get one from the mission rewards and then you get one thats worst then a zekti one.

I'm currently 8 9 9 9 intrinsics and i have gotten a total of 4 non zekti mk 3 reactors.
3 Lavan mk 3 Reactors - 22 , 24 , 25 Avionic Capacity

1 Vidar mk 3 Reactor - 36 Avionic Capacity

To add to that we've been spamming the first veil node non stop and still have gotten 0 void holes as well.

 

This is just excruciatingly frustrating.

Edited by V0lution
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So... For the feedback on numbers. (First of all, stats shoudn't be RNG based).

I tried a bit of railjack. The numbers needs to change like big times. The ressources cost is insane for someone that can play like 2 maybe 3h MAX a day (and not every day). I'm also presenting this from the perspective of someone that have a job/big studies/other stuff to do and can't do 6-7+ hours sessions like streamers/youtubers/ppl with time. So I assume most of adults.

 

For exemple: I have a BP for a Zekti Shield Array MK3. 

Titanium cost is 15k for just that one Shield array. You win (with a booster mind you) 650-850 titanium per mission. So half of that without the booster => 325-425.

Now imagine the time it will take to farm that multiple times (after all you have the engines, the reactor and multiples turrets to craft too). Upgrading stuff will cost a lot too.

 

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Drop rates:

Certain Avionics have very low drop rates and are essential to gameplay like Zetki Hyperstrike. (Note the Enemy that has this avionic doesn't even exist Elite Kosma Flak)

Other Avionics have the same issue.

Rewards:

MK3 Engines, Shields, and Reactors should be better than MK3 clan tech and definitely better than MK2 equipment. The RNG favors numbers 10-30 based on the general feedback of watching these forums and my own personal 50+ missions in the veil.

IF you're going to keep this RNG with No minimum limit (which would be 30 for engines and 50 for reactors, I think shields were 500), then the drop rate of these rewards should be increased to compensate for the fact the RNG favors lower numbers.

Resources and rush repair drones:

8-12 hours of grind + whatever the wait time is vs Instant Repair Drones (clearly I chose the easy way), how is this not strong arming your player base into pay to skip.

I mean clan tech is instant, fabricate and roll out

 

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why cant we use the resource that we already have for repairs. Please make it possible for us to use the resources we already have. Also the resourse cost for repair work is extremely high compared to the drop rate.

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I want to bring up something that happened in our dojo from a member.

He donated to our dojo treasury a bunch of carbides, copernics, cubic diodes and pustrels. He thought he was helping out.

The problem is there appears to be no way for the clan to use these items since Railjacks are an individual build and not a clan build.

It's not like the clan has a shared Railjack, or Clan Position known as "Ship Captain" to be in charge of the Railjack.

So now the clan has these resources stuck in our treasury, and they cannot be refunded back (based on the Support ticket response he got).

If people can donate these items to a clan treasury, then the clan should be able to use them to build something or research something.

I would love to build a large Tenno statue out them I can stick somewhere in the Dojo. Maybe one of a Railjack and some Greenier ships so I can make a space battle in one of the rooms.

Edited by SethUnderwood
correcting grammar

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Not so much of a feedback but I'm just curious why limiting the avionics capacity? Even the best Vidar reactor has 100, which is 130 in total. So you don't want us to have all the best avionics in our build, afraid that we are too powerful? That is a big change from how Warframe, weapons etc are modded.

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Can we at least exchange resources for other resources ? I do have excessive amount of some resources and mostly get ignored in repair especially mk2 and mk3 parts.

I dont mind to farm but give an alternative way to ease it and avoid overgrinding for specific material.

Go farm mat A.

Go exchange mat B for mat A. 

 

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I guess this is indirectly economy feedback...

Can we NOT have space resources affected by the blast momentum of the thing you're obtaining them from? 

Having to chase two titanium ore that go flying off into space from the direct process needed to actually break them out of their space rocks is not fun. It isn't consistent when they do it or not, but I just had it happen to every single one in the mission I just extracted from.

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Everybody is now farming vidal MK3 reactors, but the chance of getting is 2% per mission. That is too low and the chance of a nice capacity vidal reactor (>90) is also low.

I recommend that crewships can start dropping this, and crewships can only drop component wreckage, three houses equally. 

 

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To make bonus rewards more interesting, I think you could use a similar ABC system as other parts of the game, but have the harder missions with more objectives give you two As a B and a C (or even more if they end up having more objectives) where something like the two objective only missions give you just two As and the 3 objective ones give two As and a B. Or if you don't want them to have less than 3 bonuses like they currently do, have them all give 2 As and a B and then add additional rewards onto the missions with more objectives. The main point would be that you'd end up with a variety of bonus rewards each time instead of often just getting common resources and relics and can dilute each category with different kinds of rewards where the B and especially C categories get more desirable rewards. 

Things like common resources, smaller amounts of dirac and relics would only be in the A category, rarer resources are in B and maybe more common ship parts (also add possible rolls for things like Asterite that you can't already get) and rarer ship parts are in C. You could then add some rarer rolls in each category separately like forma BPs could go in A. 

I'd add unique things into each separate nodes tables so they're not all the same and you could farm specific nodes to chase certain rewards sort of like how with open world bounties you sometimes have certain mods or parts from specific bounties. You could throw in things like certain avionics as rare rolls to different tables depending on how rare/powerful it is, archwing mods, existing or future new archwing gun parts (I don't think these need to be syndicate locked since there's not that many of them) and again as you add new areas or swap out existing nodes for new mission types you may be adding later you could add new things to each table. 

In the veil and/or in newer areas you add later you could add new things like a decent amount of kuva (maybe this would go in B?, new RJ related things you add in the future and maybe also throw in rare rolls like some arcanes (either some of the existing ones or add new ones specific to this mode) with rare ones in the harder missions tables C tables. 

 

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Dear DE, listen to this guy for 45 minutes.  He says what is good and bad with Railjack.  If you fix all of these problems, the Railjack system will be ready for additional mission types.

 

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