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(PC) Empyrean: Economy Feedback Megathread

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Completed parts of saturn and have 30 intrinsic's now ... i think. Have hosted as well as been client.

Having to go all the way back to the forge (May be fast for tactical intrinsic but not for engineers that are supposed to do it) feels counter intuitive.

There Should be forge control stations halfway between (at the ramp) and in cockpit too, i mean why do we need to be there to start crafting? despite being a sea of thieves knockoff , this is a ship that has communication terminals. why go to each individual container? i know improving player efficiency is not a criteria , but it is directly affecting game play this time.

On foot part of mission resources dont get shared i think? could be a bug , they need to be shared across the board.

Pustrel drops / cost seem unbalanced, its the one resource that i seem to be always short of.

Omni tool usage of resources is something i dont like personally,

a good team can get through most fights in single maxed out reviolite batch without refills so they dont even need to refill.

But in most situations it will always be one fire after another. Do not see the advantage of having ammo for omni tool, removing it will remove much of the    frustration.

Havent seen a middle ground so far, Its either S#&$ creek or leisure lake, so other than busy work , i do not see the practical use of this mechanic.

 

 

Edited by 0_The_F00l

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so this thread is for the new ressources?

Then i have one major point over it. the pustrel are extremely scarce to acquires, and in the heat of the battles, they are the most primordial thing you can ever have. yet they drop un so few numbers, and so rarely, while it should be the exact opposite. even more considering how many you need of them to craft any ship part. i don't know if you have gave it a lower percentage for no other reasons than the lulz, but it gotta change. if you don't have enough pustrel in a battle, you are just dead. like, there's no reason even trying. they need ot be made way, WAY more common.

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Pustrels drops are insultingly low and are required for too many uses:

- weapons and part construction

- wreckage repair at an higher price than the above - makes no freking sense

- emergency tool to avoid ship death

- ammo for the hugeli INEFFECTIVE artillery gun of the railjack - 3 shots to sink a crewship in earth mission 1 -  this is below underwelming and each shot costs 25 pustrels verus the 5 for 50 uses of emergeny tool!

- resources get wasted by the freaking stupid forge system - if you reach capacity, if no one remembers to refine before end of mission, etc

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I'm mostly enjoying the railjack so far. But there are things I'm confused about with regards to some of the resources. For instance, when going out after finishing a mission and farming for resources, I can find a ton of cubic diodes pretty easily and I generally know where to look for them too. At the center of nebula clouds you typically find 60-80 cubic diodes just floating there. You also usually find a bunch in the smaller green radiation-looking clouds with the yellow machine in the middle. Titanium is really easy too; it's in just about every glowing rock and metal salvage piece, although it drops in quantities much lower than diodes so you have to shoot a lot of rocks and spend a lot more time flying around to get large amounts of titanium. 

 

What I don't understand though, are pustrels, copernics, and carbides. I'm still not entirely sure where they come from. It seems like enemies drop some sometimes, and some piece of space junk might have some of them in it, but it all seems totally random. I've not been able to determine any one specific type of breakable having one of these 3 resources exclusively or even just more often than others. The best way to farm for them that I have found so far is to just go around shooting asteroid cannons and praying it drops ~20 of one of these 3 resources. 

 

Not being able to reliably farm carbides and copernics really sucks when the cool MKII weapon I just found needs 7000 and 8750 respectively to repair it. Also, 200 seems a bit low for the forge capacity, especially when I can be at almost full diodes by just flying through 2 clouds. It would be cool if some of the Engineering intrinsics increased the forge cap.  

 

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Repaircosts are way too high, I've cleared almost everything (missing 3 nodes in Veil Proxima) as well as farmed some nodes plenty of times and can barely afford a single Mk II repair.

At the same time I have more Dirac that I can spend (literally can't use it, all slots and mods I use are maxed) so perhaps move some of the cost of repairing stuff to this?

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Resource cost too high for repairing upgrades. Cut in half in my opinion would feel fair.

Refining is not a good system of managing resources, i'm still unclear if you gain anything for having a full forge and continue to pick up resources. Remove resource cap on forge? Remove refining.

Loot from Galleon type missions is not shared? Most importantly, blueprints that drop from commander cannot be obtained by squad mates that were not in the galleon when commander killed. I recommend an easy fix for this would be a random drop from commander be a squad wide "?" unknown item obtained and identified upon mission completion, since that would probably be easiest for you, and give people a chance to obtain the blueprints.

Loot in general, can we just get the loot for killing stuff please? Everything we kill has an animation time of dying, fighters fly off another 1k meters before dropping the loot, crew ships take 30 seconds to die and you certainly cant hang around one to wait for loot while in archwing.

Getting these 1200 credits caches, really?

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First of all, MAKE LOOT PICKED BY AWAY CREW SHARED WITH THE REST OF THE SQUAD. Making shared loot for Railjack missions is great decision, not having it could've been a disaster, but stuff picked on board of crew ships, galleon or other interiors isn't shared.

Economy and RJ inventory management is very confusing. Do I lose stuff I didn't refine? Can I have an indicator that my cargo is full without visiting the forge? When is it safe to leave the mission? Is payload being refilled at no cost when I return to dojo? Where I can check if my wreckage inventory is full? Can I have a look at my owned Railjack stuff without visiting drydock and clicking through each category? Can you please separate different tiers and types of avionics by color? Their icons aren't very informative and blend together tbh.
I'm not even sure how I feel about the economy of ship equipment, the repairs cost, drones plat sink etc. It'll take a few days to check how good are the cheaper "stock" parts from dojo research compared to "advanced" from wreckage. Without having everything on wiki yet it's very confusing. Having to manually hover over each gun without proper sorting and higher tier parts being hidden in research panel until lower tier research is finished doesn't help either.

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I feel like the reusables in mission shouldn't be crafted but rather on cooldown and refilling station for omni tool

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3 hours ago, Aerionoth said:

Yeah, it seems to me that this game mode has had all of it's numbers somehow increased by 100-1000% before being pushed to live.

The costs to repair a single Mk. I item should not be in the thousands. The armor value of single trash units should not be in the thousands. I should not have to spend a whole week of my free time grinding non-stop to make a single gun that MIGHT be slightly better at killing enemies than the literal rock thrower we have right now.

Here's the feedback: move the decimal point 1-2 spaces to the left on all "repair" costs. Then maybe it won't look like you're so desperate to sell those 50-plat repair drones.

one week to grind for one item to build? first of all this isn't even a week going since you 'could' grind for it and second, you obviously do something wrong since i only needed about one hour playtime to get enough resources to build the first mk1 engine... by now i have build (or being in the process of it, waiting for them to finish) about 10 items - some mk2 already.

sure, by now i have a booster running, that helps too - but it's nowhere near a problem like you want to sound it.

my guess is you don't loot properly during the mission and neither afterward. sure, it will take about 20min++ with a team of 4 of do a good 'field-strip' of an area and about an hour when running solo and really being thoroughly with the looting, but why should rushing be rewarded even more by DE?

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5 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

that sounds like you do more or less speed running the missions instead of proper looting too. also keep refining the resources onboard when you have the bonus for it already active (in the engineering instrinsics) this way you get far more from the 4 main resourses.

Nope. Been farming most of the time at end of the missions and refining also, although DE said we shouldnt need to...

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32 minutes ago, kuryux said:

Nope. Been farming most of the time at end of the missions and refining also, although DE said we shouldnt need to...

did you found out where to look for the resources? crates in space and on ships/stations, those 'eddies' in space that suck all kind of resources to it (maybe that's what left of our old itzal ability... DE thrown it into space where it still... sucks ^^)   also the 'glowing' red barrels and glowing rocks contain resources as do the respawning turrets. not sure if the 'normal' destroyable asteroids can have some in them since i never got any out of them when playing solo (but sometimes got the feeling they might occasionaly when in coop...).

refining makes out of 200 of one resource type 480 - and that's without the intrinsics that put 10% to it. ofc, that demands that one player keeps an eye on the forge and is a bit of a hassle when flying alone.

DE is right with stating we shouldn't need to farm, but it sure helps to do at least a curseory sweep of the map. if your rail can handle it, it makes sense to keep fighting in one are so that you don't miss too many resource drops from the enemy ships - that, or go in close and personal with an AW and collecting the stuff right when they explode...

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Here are numbers for a few tier III repairs.  I've done every Railjack mission at least once, with plenty of duplicates.  I had a booster going about half the time.  Relative to the cost to repair (e.g. 2 = have 2x the amount needed):

Zetki Shield III: Pustrels 2.2, Fresnels 4, Trachons 1.7, Titanium 0.4(!)

Vidar Cryo III: Cubic Diodes 2.1, Fresnels 5, Titanium 0.54(!), Asterite 0.43(!)

Given the time invested I'd certainly expect to be able to make at least one mk III tier item if not two or three, but Titanium and Asterite fall significantly short. Specifically the Titanium requirement is 15,000 for both, and my total from the above play time is 6582.  Asterite requirement is 1440, have 620.

In terms of playstyle, I loot every fighter I kill and loot every container on crew ships and galleons.  I generally do 1/3-2/3 of the crewships in a group mission and go through every indoor objective layout.  I blow up rocks and grab shinies when I see them, but haven't spent significant time purely farming rocks.

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The whole numbers game behind railjack is what I understand the least to be honest. 

The resource costs for repairing wreckage parts is out of this world. I'm now up to the end of saturn, and I barely have enough to restore even 1 par of MK-II quality. This only incentivizes the use of repair drones, not to mention how incredibly fast you outgrow these parts to begin with. The moment I get into the third area, they will all be outdated immediately, which, in the end, only promotes the use of other people's railjacks, besides my own. I'm currently really not interested in upgrading my own railjack anyway. What's the point? I'd rather just save up resources to use on MK-3 parts so my railjack will be of use at some point in the future, rather than be permanently outdated. 
I'm not sure how to combat this though. I'm not going to bother with any of the Sigma series research, because the numbers don't make it worth it, all of it is inferior to pretty much anything you find while doing railjack missions. I guess what makes all of this feel so bad, is that it's so incredibly visible how much of your investment you're losing when you upgrade your ship items, or rather, replace. Those 20k resources or sth you spend on an MK2-tier item (and that's only one item) pretty much all go down the drain the very second you get your first MK3 item. It very quickly boils down to; "go farm 20k resources. Great, you have new item. Go to next area. Your item is now outdated. Go farm 30k resources with outdated item to get new item." 

The refining mechanic feels plain bad. While it does add an extra layer of teamwork to a minor degree, it never feels truly good, especially given the incredibly high numbers of resources we need for upgrading parts. Knowing you're probably losing a bunch of them due to them not being refined will always be an annoyance. This could very well be temporary though. Might even disappear completely as more people gain knowledge of this system, and what refining does etc. I do find it problematic, however, that refining as a whole is never explained properly. It is literally a case of "how to make sure your item drops actually get to your inventory".  It's pretty damn important, and should have been made clear from the start how it starts, however, no such information was made clear properly.

 

Edit: Dirac numbers needed seem awfully low. I'm probably nearing, if not over 1.000 hours played in WF, and I still need regular Endo for heavy, long-term investments like primed mods. I can't help but feel that, when it comes to space-Endo, or Dirac, I'll be done in another 20 hours or so. Upgrading the avionics grid is an investment that could be a form of gradual improvement, much like instrinsics, but the upgrade process is underwhelmingly fast. Maybe it would be better to not hand these direct upgrades in power and durability away so easily? I've seen plenty of people who already have their entire grid and all avionics upgraded to the max. That's a bit fast if you ask me.

Don't have a whole lot of other things I can formulate properly at this point. Might provide some more feedback later.

Edited by Salenzar
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1 hour ago, fr4gb4ll said:

did you found out where to look for the resources? crates in space and on ships/stations, those 'eddies' in space that suck all kind of resources to it (maybe that's what left of our old itzal ability... DE thrown it into space where it still... sucks ^^)   also the 'glowing' red barrels and glowing rocks contain resources as do the respawning turrets. not sure if the 'normal' destroyable asteroids can have some in them since i never got any out of them when playing solo (but sometimes got the feeling they might occasionaly when in coop...).

refining makes out of 200 of one resource type 480 - and that's without the intrinsics that put 10% to it. ofc, that demands that one player keeps an eye on the forge and is a bit of a hassle when flying alone.

DE is right with stating we shouldn't need to farm, but it sure helps to do at least a curseory sweep of the map. if your rail can handle it, it makes sense to keep fighting in one are so that you don't miss too many resource drops from the enemy ships - that, or go in close and personal with an AW and collecting the stuff right when they explode...

Maybe I was exaggerating the week of farming, but that's how it feels to me. I've unlocked up to and including the second zone's nodes and repeated the higher-level Earth zones, and I still don't have enough resources to craft a single Mk I, let alone Mk. II. Having nothing good on my ship, I naturally do pugs, and I've not seen a single pug that spends more than a minute after the mission is done to loot.

I don't know your situation, weather you're playing with a group of friends, how long you're playing, how seriously you're grinding. But as someone that has never had a problem playing the normal game casually, the costs of making anything in this update without spending plat (either on boosters or on drones) are astronomical. The economy is far more broken than Plains on launch, and that's saying something.

Maybe it's best, for me at least, to just skip playing for a few weeks; I hear rewards for the last area are high, and maybe the hardcore people will have better ships by then to deal with the insane armor on everything... I just hope that filling the engineer role gets fixed and doesn't stay as the (yes, I realize this word is overused) cuckold, while away teams get extra materials.

By no means do I want every single mission to yield more than I need for one part, but after playing it for a longer amount of time I expect to see SOME progress to my actual Railjack, not just the faux mod and faux affinity systems. Kinda not fun trying to kill lvl300 enemies with a Mk.1-Braton and a warframe shackled and unable to even unlock all lvl1 abilities.

Edited by Aerionoth

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1 hour ago, Aerionoth said:

I don't know your situation, weather you're playing with a group of friends, how long you're playing, how seriously you're grinding. But as someone that has never had a problem playing the normal game casually, the costs of making anything in this update without spending plat (either on boosters or on drones) are astronomical. The economy is far more broken than Plains on launch, and that's saying something.

hard to belive you have that much bad luck with resources. i play usually pugs, sometimes with my ship more often though i just join up - so no real organized group except one time where the pug-team was pretty good and we done the entire earth nodes inclusive an organized looting after the missions were done - optimized refining too. beside that, i have still a double resource booster running that helps without question... also, i usually had my smeeta with me, but that might only got me some extra resources while on foot inside ships and stations.

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Why do we need 15k Titanium to repair Tier 3 items when you can only get it in small quantities by shooting rocks? Are we supposed to spend days doing nothing but mining to craft tier 3 gear? If you really want to force people to use it it should only be for one of the ship parts so you only have to mine enough for one item.

MK 1 gear should use titanium instead of pustrels for repairs. That would let you craft gear to get rid of the useless starter equipment faster and mean you aren't losing as much progress when you need to repair your ship.

Avionics are much worse than mods because their varying number of ranks and strength based on what house they are makes you much more reliant on having something good drop. I've already maxed my grid and all my mods but my railjack still has awful HP because the only bulkhead mod that has dropped is a laven one with one upgrade point. My turrets do bad damage even though they are the strongest ones in their tier because the only hyperstrike mod I have is the default one that you start with.

Even if you happen to get a mod with a lot of ranks for a stat it doesn't matter because you can't use it until you luck into a reactor that has high enough capacity to fit them.

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General feedback - component rebuild costs seem extremely high considering how many different variants you'll potentially want to keep for different builds, and during progression. I know you want to encourage some plat spend on instant repairs and I don't blame you, you do deserve to get income from this update. But at the moment it just seems a little extreme.

E.g. "play for 10 hours and gain resources to repair one or two guns" extreme. Could we tone that down, please?

 

Credit rewards on railjack missions are much too low! Way way waaaaaaay too low. Especially considering you need 6 million credits to build a railjack, and then get.... 4K credits from a highest tier mission? That's 1500 missions to recoup the railjack cost....?

I think you could easily make the case for either removing those completely, or making them 50k/100k+ each reward, especially considering the increased challenge and length of these missions.

 

"Common" drops e.g. Copernics and Cubic Diodes are too low. You can easily obtain enough rare materials to craft 10 guns by the time you have enough of the "common" mats to craft 1.

 

Could we get something more than just a few dirac for scrapping unwanted wreckage? Even if just a small, say 5% of the material cost of that item? E.g scrap 20 Zakti Pulsar MK3 and obtain enough resources to build one. If you can get that much wreckage without farming the resources yourself I'd argue you deserve it by then, no? 🙂

 

Edited by CoreWolf

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Could we craft the new resources using resources from our existing resource pools? Would alleviate the high repair costs of salvage, despite my gripes with it feeling more like we're building it ground the ground up

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Could there be a way to cancel repairs on railjack weapons, while giving back part of or all the resources invested in it? Or at least make it so that the repair drones are usable either way? I invested like 3k carbides into a weapon and now I want to take those resources and put it into another part. If there is already a way to do so, please let me know, thanks!

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After going through the entire chart the true limiting resource is Titanium.

This is because you require 15k per part, or a total of 45k for your ship parts and 30k for the weapons assuming you craft the bare minimum, 75k Titanium total.

A run of the lowest level earth mission nets you 1k(with booster) and takes 10-15 minutes. Extrapolate that out and you're at a minimum of 12.5 hrs of Titanium farming.

The issue here is that unlike the other resources Titanium is only found via the rocks/red barrels floating in space. It is a tedious mining job that has no synergy with any content a player would run in a group, making it a solo task.

That means it's highly unlikely for anyone to either want to or naturally obtain via play the Titanium necessary to craft their items.

Do one to all of:

  • Let titanium drop in reasonably large quantities from defeated enemies as well as from rocks.
  • Lower the titanium cost of Mk III items.
  • Have whoever decides the resource costs grind them once from nothing(no upgraded Railjack either) before he makes decisions.

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At least we can say that DE is likely aware that they didn't balance the Economy that well, considering this topic existed from day one.

...Now if they fix it or not is another story.

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Yeah im also going to chime in that the balance between common and rare resources is horribly horribly skewed, made only worse by the fact that you are encouraged to use them to do repairs and build supplies, they need to be brought down to levels far more reasonable and i can even provide a good example why. The most common limiting resource in warframe earlier on is rare materials, not the common one, things like neurodes and orokin cells and gallium maybe. Having the most common resource be the limiting factor just feels awful.

Speaking of limiting factors, this update has been a reminder that mod drops kinda suck. The modding system itself is pretty fun, dont get me wrong, but not having essentials like serration early on for a newbie is really bad, and we are feeling the same situation with railjack. low grade damage mod means turrets dont do much to kill, low grade hp mod means i can only really get 2000 hp, while getting a high grade one grants triple that. Worse, not having battle avionics is kinda frustrating, as they all look really fun! I would recommend putting a small selection of mods in a store buyable with a lot of dirac, like a medium grade hp, armor, damage, and so on mods, as well as weaker versions of the battle avionics.  

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Pustrels and titanium feel like alloy plate did circa 2013, in that they're an ostensibly common resource but it drops in pretty small amounts and that bottlenecks progression real hard.

DE, you guys fixed that issue by making them drop at several times the rate, making core progression much smoother, and it feels like a similar change is necessary for Railjack as well.

For those of you who don't remember the bad old days where Alloy Plate dropped like, 8 at a time, you're in luck. They were pretty bad.

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Players should be able to change the location of "item notifications".

Since Railjack resources will spam this condition and makes chat messages unreadable.

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