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[DE]Bear

(PC) Empyrean: Economy Feedback Megathread

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It's been brought up a few times in the Megathread already but I want to take a different (and more demanding) take on it.

Give us all our resources back when scrapping a repaired part.

You said in the update notes "SCRAPPING a WRECKAGE item after Repairing gives you back your crafting materials you spent to Repair it (Titanium, Carbides, etc)"  Which is either accidentally misleading, or intentionally misleading.  Many of us read the update notes and planned accordingly thinking 'Oh yeah, we can get repairs going in-case a better item isn't given to us soon.  Not like we're going to lose any resources' and as a result we've been buggered out of thousands of resources.

The way I see it you have one of four options going forth (going preferred to least preferred).

1) Change it so all resources spent on a repaired item are given back to the player upon scrapping.  Also refund the resource difference to people for each repaired item they have scrapped.

2) Change what the update notes say as well as refunding everyone affected the resource difference for any repaired item that has been scrapped.

3) Change what the update notes say but don't give us our lost resources back.  This will result in more distrust between you and the community.

4) Leave the Update Notes as they are, don't give us our resources back, and continue to screw over your playerbase due to the (at this point) intentionally misleading/incorrect information provided to us by you.  This will result in not only further lost trust between you and the community but will also stop many of us from ever using Hanlon's Razor in your defence.

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So, after playing Empyrean a lot, these are the problems I've got at this moment. The combination of long repair time of wreckage, high resource cost and no way to refund the resources of the half repaired wreckage, will end by not repairing anything at all 'till I got at least MKII from everything. Until then I just join other crews. I have sitting two half funded wreckage that are now obsolete, because in the time I had to get the resources, I got a better wreckage loot from the next planet. I can't destroy it and I refuse to put the rest of resources into it, wasting them, so I can free up a slot.

1. We need a way to cancel the repairing the same way as in our foundry on the Orbiter, that refunds the resources.

2. Either lower the high resource usage or the time to repair a wreckage significantly, so you get to use it before you get a better one while farming for resources. So down to one hour for repairing or make the MKI resource requirements go down from about 3k to 1k in Cubic Diodes, Pustrels, Carbides, Copernics. MKII maybe could stay the same or down from 7-8k to 5k, because getting to intrinsic level 7 for the next planet takes time, so you wont have access to MKIII drops for a long time if you don't burn through the content.

3. Instead just lowering the MK I repair to one hour, make the times gradually higher with higher tier components. MKI one hour, MKII twelve hours, MKIII a day. I know DE needs to earn money and rushing with platinum is an option for that, so the higher times in higher tiers will balance it out.

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Why are Zetki guns better than the other 2? What's the point of crafting the other 2?

Why do Shields/Reactors/Engine have RNG stats? What's the point of that? I've seen Mk1 parts better than Mk2 parts, what's up with that? 

Just give everything set stats, and make each with it's own downside and upside based on faction Lavan/Vidar/Zetki, reset all archwings to default, give everyone their parts back as blueprints and give everyone rush drones equal to the amount of crafted parts they had equipped otherwise everyone will be mad if something they have now is the best but won't be after changes

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2 minutes ago, Sebastianx said:

Why are Zetki guns better than the other 2? What's the point of crafting the other 2?

Lavan does better shield equipment than Zekti. Idk what Vidar does, maybe better reactors?

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1 minute ago, Aadi880 said:

Lavan does better shield equipment than Zekti. Idk what Vidar does, maybe better reactors?

None is better than none, they have RNG stats, only guns have set stats, I've gotten Zekti shields with ~400 capacity and -4 seconds delay and Lavan with +60 shields, at least if they went this route, parts should be refunded for 100% of cost, not 50%, and repair time should be 1 hour for new ones.

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1 minute ago, Sebastianx said:

None is better than none, they have RNG stats, only guns have set stats, I've gotten Zekti shields with ~400 capacity and -4 seconds delay and Lavan with +60 shields, at least if they went this route, parts should be refunded for 100% of cost, not 50%, and repair time should be 1 hour for new ones.

Dunno, its the oppsite end for me. Got 10 same MK shield arrays, 6 Lavans, 4 Zektis, but the Lavan almost always are above Zekti's by 100+ values. Sure, there's RNG to it, but from my experience, Lavan's never below Zektis on the same MK.
 

Also, I've heard Zekti's weapons overheat more frequently than Lavan or Vidar's, though I need conformation on that one.

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As it stands now, the entirety of Railjack parts economy is completely and utterly defunct "thanks" to the existence of Repair Drones in their current form. They contradict the very idea of Warframe crafting at its basest level, meaning that Platinum bypasses too many gates at once and devalue play time too greatly.

1) It bypasses (and surpasses) the Clan Research - a restored Wreckage of the same tier is almost always better than the corresponding Clan Tech item, because Clan Tech (Sigma series) lack any special abilities whatsoever, have inferior base stats AND takes 72h to research. 

2) It bypasses the resource cost, which is simply absurd. We cannot Rush a regular Foundry blueprint without having all the parts/resources, but we CAN do that with Railjack weapons/components.

3) It is literally MORE efficient to do any other plat-related activity and buy a drone than actually play the Railjack missions and grind them out. 

To illustrate, this is a Zetki Reactor and its repair cost:

Spoiler

24Zu3zF.png

As you can see, I don't have enough to repair it yet (mostly thanks to Titanium), and that is after grinding for several hours each day on Friday, Saturday and Sunday with a booster. Would need 6-7 days to finish that amount from 0.

Mind you, I'm a MR28 player with access to all other content, yet it would take me close to a week of after-work play to afford a SINGLE part repair. Multiply that by 6 parts (reactor, shield, engine, pilot gun port, turrets, ordnance) - that's 6 weeks of grinding to afford a repair cost of ONE Railjack gear set, never mind stuff for different build. 

On the other hand, 300 (6x50 per drone) plat would accomplish that within mere HOURS, eliminating the resource cost. You're done as soon as you find a suitable wreck, which drop like candy in the Veil. 

 

Please, consider very, VERY hard to remove/rebalance the "Grind VS Plat" part of this. I simply don't feel like playing AT ALL after considering how little you value player time and how infinitely more effective throwing money at the screen is. 

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I'm pretty okay with the resources overall. There's constantly needed resource sinks in the form of ammunition, which I think is a good start in Warframe, a game notoriously lacking in resource sinks for a lot of resources, which we have millions of just sitting around. Although the mode hasn't been around long enough to get a decent opinion on it, I think the rate we're getting resources is good.

My only issue is the Railjacks storage. It's so low, and it can fill up so quickly in combat. Can sometimes put you in a situation where you've refined what you have and you don't pick up something you need after the storage is empty. 

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Something needs to be done about the common resources, either their requirements or their drop amounts. I have many times what I need for any uncommon or rare resource, and am constantly bottlenecked by the literal mountains of Pustrels/Copernics/Carbides/Whatever Else that I need to build even 1 part.

On that note, why do all the parts of the same tier require the same resources? This causes an unnecessary strain on specific components and forces us into a grind to surpass Metal Gear Hema.

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I'm with everyone else. Titanium costs are way too high. Probably also asterite. I played most of the weekend with a resource booster and I barely have half of the titanium needed for an MK3 repair. Also, the MK1 costs should probably be very little because you can get to MK3 without being able to repair any MK1, which seems like a mistake. There's not really an upgrade path. 

I guess I'm echoing Reifnir and DagoDrakh. Making platinum for repair drones is days faster than farming the materials, and that's bad in two ways. 1) I want to do Railjack missions and it's encouraging me not to. 2) It feels abusively pay to win. I've never felt that way about Warframe before. Like, it would've been better not to buy the resource booster and just buy 4 repair drones instead. 

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Right now the whole progression seems too slow. It feels like building lower tier parts isn't actually worth it, because you really want to wait until you have good MK3 stuff anyway. And then looking at the costs for the MK3, it might just be easier to farm some prime parts and sell those instead of farming the actual resources. Maybe I just haven't found the good place to farm yet, but for now I guess I'm just waiting until I know what the best parts and weapons are and can then decide if farming for them is actually worth it or if it better to just spend the 200 platinum (saving 50 for the 1 part that I'm going to have the resources for by then).

I also have to agree with the other players, when it comes to how frustrating spending resources for ammo and repairs is. I don't mind having to craft stuff and manage resources during the mission (in principle this is actually a good thing), but it shouldn't have a significant impact on overall progression.

The whole situation could probably be a lot better if there was some ability that marks resources, so you don't have to fly around everywhere in hopes of finding the spots where the enemies died or where you get the titanium. It would also be nice to have some places where you just get to find large amounts of resources.

And finally I think the refining process and how resources are shared is very flawed. I've had a player tell me, he refined stuff mid mission, because he had the kavat buff at the time. Selfish players like that can always be annoying, but I don't think they should get a further incentive.
And then there are all the resources and blueprint drops on the crewships and bases. So not only does nobody want to be the engineer who is stuck on the ship cleaning up everything while the rest of the team gets to have fun, but now you also lose out on all the drops. This could partially be mitigated if the objectives where all the resources drop could only be done after the fighters and crewships are dealt with. That way everybody would have time to loot. However this still wouldn't be an ideal solution.

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What is the point of giving players worse items as drops (that cost more to repair) then clan research counterparts? Not to mention people can end up spending plat on stuff that is strictly worse. The rng stats should be adjusted so that drop could at the very least function as proper side grade. I have screenshot with some mk2 reactors I've got in comparison to clan research one.

nUIkpVW.jpg

Zetki can be considered side grade but why would anyone use Vidar one? Also I find it funny that reactor that supposedly is "optimized for avionics capacity" has less of it than standard reactor.

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So, my clans research on all the MKI stuff finished last night and now we have all the MKII stuff in progress and I'm just more confused about everything now. The Sigma MKII reactor gives +30 avionics and +50 flux capacity while costing 15k credits, 3 Aucrux Capacitors, 150 Isos, 4k Copernics, and 3k Titanium. Meanwhile, I found a Zetki MKII reactor that only gives 18 avionics and 50 flux, but costs 15k credits, 11 Komms, 390 Kesslers, 8750 Copernics, and 7000 carbides. 

 

Who wants to take a crazy, ridiculously wild guess about which one I'm going to go with? 

 

Lol, the tool tip for the Zetki reactor even says that house Zetki built their reactors with a focus on flux capacity. Apparently they didn't focus very hard on it, now did they? 

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My friend had an interesting idea about refining. We've been doing these missions as a 2 man team mostly, where he pilots and I do basically everything else. After missions we spend a good amount of time farming resources, I in archwing and him in the ship. Because of the forge limit, having to refine, and being able to find large numbers of diodes very quickly in some spots, he often times has to leave the pilot seat and go run down to refine stuff, and then by the time he returns to the pilot seat it's time to go refine stuff again. 

 

He jokingly said he wished he had a refine button at the pilot seat for being an engineer. I think something like that could make a good intrinsic though. Some sort of tactical refinement button. Currently I just told him to get to rank 3 tactical and just teleport down there, which works just fine it you're just moving around the ship, but having a refinement button on the actual tactical screen would be great for being out and about picking stuff up in archwing.

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Currently there is no reason for me to fund the replication of anything under mark 3.  Especially with the clan research ones.  I might as well just fund the research, wait and keep going until mark 3 then worry about building them.  I wish it was closer to an upgrade where you put in some resources to upgrade from a mark 0 to mk 1, and so on rather than being some brand new thing to build and just change on the ship.  The clan ones should be used as an actual upgrade tree that is much cheaper but is at a set value and have the family drops have the range that can go beyond what the clan ones can.

 

So a mk1 family could have better stats than the clan mk2 if the roll is good but the clan mk2 costs a fraction since you are just doing more of an upgrade and less of a rebuild.

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Can you change resources like Pustrels, Copernics, Titanium, etc to be common resources?

Now that Empyrean is out you get so much of this stuff in Railjack missions that every other second i get a special notification that i got more Diodes.
That noise should be reserved for actual rare resources.

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11 hours ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

It's been brought up a few times in the Megathread already but I want to take a different (and more demanding) take on it.

Give us all our resources back when scrapping a repaired part.

You said in the update notes "SCRAPPING a WRECKAGE item after Repairing gives you back your crafting materials you spent to Repair it (Titanium, Carbides, etc)"  Which is either accidentally misleading, or intentionally misleading.  Many of us read the update notes and planned accordingly thinking 'Oh yeah, we can get repairs going in-case a better item isn't given to us soon.  Not like we're going to lose any resources' and as a result we've been buggered out of thousands of resources.

The way I see it you have one of four options going forth (going preferred to least preferred).

1) Change it so all resources spent on a repaired item are given back to the player upon scrapping.  Also refund the resource difference to people for each repaired item they have scrapped.

2) Change what the update notes say as well as refunding everyone affected the resource difference for any repaired item that has been scrapped.

3) Change what the update notes say but don't give us our lost resources back.  This will result in more distrust between you and the community.

4) Leave the Update Notes as they are, don't give us our resources back, and continue to screw over your playerbase due to the (at this point) intentionally misleading/incorrect information provided to us by you.  This will result in not only further lost trust between you and the community but will also stop many of us from ever using Hanlon's Razor in your defence.

This, a lot of people posted on the forums that they're getting all their mats back / you're supposed to get all your mats back. pretty messed up that this isn't addressed yet

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Repair costs are way too high, even with a resource booster and 10 hours of play I'm barely putting a dent in the repair cost of mk2 parts, can only imagine how bad mk3 is going to be.

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The annoying part for me is not the costs,  but the fact that repairs can be partially funded but it's impossible to scrap or use a repair drone on wreckage that has been partially funded.  Since I've gotten better drops and still don't have enough resources to repair all my early ones,  this necessitates spending a lot of time and resources repairing things just to scrap them to clear out the slots.  

It's also annoying that there's no one to know how many slots we have left available for wreckage without manually counting everything on multiple different pages.  I'm okay with the high costs,  but the ability to scrap partially funded wreckage, even at the cost of  all the funded materials, would be great.

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I thought the farm was bad until I realized you get all the resources you spent back if you trash wreckage after repairing it.  You can repair wreckage, then get your investment back when you get a better one.  I think this balances the repair cost for wreckage.

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23 minutes ago, hyzmarca said:

The annoying part for me is not the costs,  but the fact that repairs can be partially funded but it's impossible to scrap or use a repair drone on wreckage that has been partially funded.  Since I've gotten better drops and still don't have enough resources to repair all my early ones,  this necessitates spending a lot of time and resources repairing things just to scrap them to clear out the slots.  

It's also annoying that there's no one to know how many slots we have left available for wreckage without manually counting everything on multiple different pages.  I'm okay with the high costs,  but the ability to scrap partially funded wreckage, even at the cost of  all the funded materials, would be great.

Wrekage management is an utter mess

Repair costs are all over the place and there's a high risk of getting locked in repairing trash parts after finding better ones - rivens but worse

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NEON: La materia luminosa dell’arte | CollabCubed
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Railjack alone costs 6,000,000 credits.

Just drop the credit rewards from the Empyrean table entirely.
It's the same as getting nothing.

We have so many other ways of getting credits that are WORTH my time.

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I posted already saying the resource costs are too high, but now i must emphasize Titanium.

The only method of obtaining it is to shoot rocks, and these MK3 parts take 15k titanium...

Resource booster on, do a fast mission, then fly around for 30 minutes to shoot ALL of the rocks (most efficient way there is) is roughly 2k titanium an hour. So you want us to fly around for 8 hours shooting rocks per mk3 piece?

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1.Either decrease the repair costs of the equipment you found or double the drop rates of the resources. I literally dont want to repair anything because getting the resources is really hard. Should i spend what i have on a new reactor or in the mk1 gun? i cant do both. Play more? im on vacations and im playing the most i can, i wont be able to gather resources to try new combinations when i get to work, right now ill just go for the build everyone is going for because that the most efficient way to spend the resources (frost on the nose and maybe apoc on the sides)

2.Gathering resources is really hard when you have a swarm of fighters around the ship. Let us get the resources when we kill an enemy. You killed a fighter? The drops go directly to your inventory/forge that makes the engineer life way more easier

3.If the engineer and pilot must stay on the ship they will therefore miss the drops the boarder gets. If you want this to be a true coop experience then let everyone get what everyone collects..EVERYTHING

4.Why is there a cap on the forge? and why do you lose what you dont refine? Why is refining even a thing? Let the railjack save everything you collect and what is not used to craft revolite/flux or ammunition at the end of the mission go to the players inventory.

5.And for future new systems, please... no more new resources  

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Ok, resource and repair voes aside:

What's with the battle avionics drop rates? I still only have Tether after grinding through earth and saturn several times.

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