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(PC) Empyrean: Economy Feedback Megathread

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31 minutes ago, LocoWithGun said:

Ok, resource and repair voes aside:

What's with the battle avionics drop rates? I still only have Tether after grinding through earth and saturn several times.

I have none, and am 5 6 7 5

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pustrel drops need a buff. or at least make them farmable elsewhere, they are a "common" drop thats used in alot yet not dropped as much as the other true common drops.
pustrels are a rare common drop and they are used in missions and to craft, a slight bump in drop chance and amount would be nice.

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Clean and to the point, Railjack is fun *but* I'm seeing room for tons of improvement mainly revolving around the current resource profile.

-Revolite is often cited as a problem area and I wholeheartedly agree. While the forge idea for crafting on board munitions is a perfectly sound one, having a straight up hard cap on being able to repair, and you'll be repairing a lot, turns it from fun to just stressful. Damage is far harder to mitigate in railjack than in a warframe and pretty much demands one person be on constant duty for it. If Revolite is destined to be a thing here's my idea as a change for it:

*Change Revolite to be a tactical ability utilized by the crew to deploy essentially a ship wide repair. Press button, receive repairs. In this change the Omni can have it's cap removed and changed to an infinite use to encourage that direct interaction from the player instead. It's not fun to have already finished a mission and be exploring around for extra supplies only to catch a barrage from a turret platform and suddenly every things on fire, and you're out of juice because you had to refine since the forges can only store 200 of a given material.

-Otherwise generally the price of... everything in terms of both research and blueprint repair are a brutal climb and grind. I'm fine with farming, I've played Warframe for almost 1.5k hours now, but every time new content comes out it's just another new resource to stockpile while the rest of the stuff I've spent my time obtaining continues collecting dust. I've only seen the requirements of MK1 stuff for the Railjack so far, so it makes me scared for what anything higher tier will ask. Speaking as the captain of my group of friends who can't spend the time getting their own ships, even just reaching the higher level Earth missions is starting to hit a hard crawl since the basic weapons just don't work as effectively, modding isn't exactly the same niche as weapons/frame, and upgrading to anything new is going to be a long haul.

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Fix the away team not sharing their loot. This has to be a bug right?
- People have to babysit the railjack, so not everyone can go onto away missions to get the boss weapon drops.

Please fix all the railjack resources being 'rare', it clutters the UI. Though it is important to know when you pick up resources for repair juice.
When you pick up crafting resources that go in the forge, there needs to be a new minimal UI that shows how how much the forge is holding and how much was just picked up.
Like a grid (example if you picked up cubic diodes):
[Cubic Diodes icon] 25 + 25
[Pustrels icon]     15
[Copernics icon]    70
[Carbides icon]     45
So you can see what you just picked up, and what the current forge total is (cubics went from 0 to 25). So you can tell you can craft repair juice now.

Avionics Drops Rates:
The battle avionics and tactical avionics are #*!%ing rare. I seem to hazily remember that warframes used to have to slot abilities via mods and it sucked ass. But it's back again.
I think it's slightly more acceptable on a railjack, (since you already have a set of warframe and archwing powers) but still.
- Maybe add first clear rewards to the last mission around every planet to give out 1 battle and 1 tactical avionic. This would be similar to the spectres of the rail junctions giving out standard mods.


Random stat weapons:
Random stat weapon drops.. I hoped warframe would be free of this. The inventory management is usually a pain. We'll see how this goes. I don't collect rivens either since it's the same thing.
Also, parts rng stats are not the same across all the players that pick it up. This is bad. You are all meant to succeed or fail as a group. But with per player rng, some people succeed and some fail.

I like that dojo weapons seem to use a different set of railjack resources to build compared to drops. It attempts to give you more freedom to craft random drops and still have resources left to make the baseline power weapons.

The rate of gaining salvage parts is way higher than the rate of collecting resources to build them (and I'm running a booster). I'd say 95% of the drops I'll scrap because the next mk gun will come out of the research lab before I have ground enough resources to build the drops.
This makes inventory management a pain. Since you only have 30 slots and you have to keep pruning constantly to avoid the drops getting auto scrapped.
The UI also makes it hard to prune since it's hard to compare items to find the best one. The UI hides the numbers behind a button and doesn't let you view them side by side.

If you get 100% of your resources back for scrapping weapons I guess I could make more? But I don't think you get all your resources back.
Also, if the refund isn't 100% then the non-max tier weapons are worse to build. Cause screw wasting resources on things you will outgrow soon. Maybe the tier 1 should return 100% and each additional tier refunds less. Since the tier 3 is the stuff you will be incrementally improving as you get better rolls that should be where the resource sink goes. But the early tiers you are just going to want to scrap as soon as higher tier drops.

Please make it more clear that you get resources back and what % you get back when scrapping. Let the player before you craft the part that you can scrap it and get resources back.


Engineering and Refining:
I like your ability to recover from failure is limited to how much revolite you can craft. It sort of works like survival where you have to kill enemies to get life support drops.
A bigger vacuum or something like a tractor beam in the engineering room that can find and collect crafting resources could make this process of collecting 'life support' better.

I don't understand why people are asking for infinite repair or repair to use resources that don't drop in railjack. You usually find enough resources on site to keep your repair juice topped up, if you are not it usually means your need to play an easier mission.

Refine should use the highest tier engineer skill in the party, no matter who presses the button. Although this would make it inconsistent with gunnery skills only working while you are in the gun, it would be better than having some low skill engineer wasting resources.

Also, please auto refine when going to drydock (using highest tier engineer skill). So resources are not wasted.

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Titanium.

Something really needs to be done about this. I have been playing Empyrean since its release almost nonstop and with a resource booster, but right now I can only repair 2 MkIII parts due to titanium shortage (I simply cannot imagine what ppl without a booster is going through). I say add them to the loot tables of some enemies, that way it would make it more integrated with the basic gameplay loop of Railjack.

Edited by Valok
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Here's a thought...... Forge uses resources from normal warframe missions ie (polymer bundles, gallium, morphics etc etc etc). New resources in space for railjack upgrading requirements.  

This gives veteran players some respect as it allows us to use the resources we accumulated over the years and it is not wasted time spent playing the game while waiting for new content.

 

Edited by ecwp1981
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Need the option to cancel partially funded wreckage repairs, especially when I found a better wreckage, there is no point in wasting resources for that unfinished inferior project and it would stay there forever.

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10 minutes ago, ntyd1s said:

Need the option to cancel partially funded wreckage repairs, especially when I found a better wreckage, there is no point in wasting resources for that unfinished inferior project and it would stay there forever.

nah, they need to fully refund materials spend on repair, make the repairs take 1 hour, and cut the resource cost in half for mk1 and mk2 at least. Probably for Mk3 as well, but I can see why they'd want people to take longer over that

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Requirements for just one part is too high. I have done over 10 games and finally could make a gun.

Edited by alseltas

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The only Two changes I would love to see are:

1.  that all loot and all Intrinsics are shared by the whole crew. It’s counterproductive to a cooperative mode to punish players for fulfilling their role.

the Away team gets more Resources and Drops then the rest of the team, while the Engineer is getting much more affinity/intrinsics then the rest of the Railjack crew.

2. That there are no random components. If necessary make more tiers rather than have parts that can have widely different stats. To keep the system balanced you could add a new tier of gear for every 10 enemy ship levels. With the changes to enemy scaling this could work out fine and give players an incentive to play any new content that comes for Railjack.

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1. As stated by others, resource costs need another pass. 25-50% reduction in cost would make wreckage feel a lot more worth investing in. The grind is just a tad too steep.

2. Battle Avionics drop rates are crap. it should not take 10 hours to unlock a single basic skill for your railjack. Right now, sigma parts will provide RNG protection for wreckage parts. They are mid range ship improvements that are outclassed by most wreckage, aren’t min/maxed or optimized, but are a good starting place for upgrades. Can we have a similar feature for tactical/battle avionics? Perhaps you could buy them (or a weaker variant) for a lot of resources form the respective zones each skill drops in. That way, if I spend 10 hours trying to get the missile launch one but can’t, I can just dump some materials to buy it. Right now, it’s just disappointing not to be able to equip any skills on the ship.

3. Having the away team be the only person to get loot from ships when all loot gathered in space is shared doesn’t make sense and isn’t really fair to the rest of the team. Vice Versa for intrinsics. Those should be shared as well, or at least rebalanced so that pilots and away crew get a reasonable amount.

4. Materials not used in the foundry shouldn’t need to be refined. They should just go into your inventory when you return to the dry dock. I don’t think I need to explain this one.

5. Why aren’t other materials from the game used for anything? Right now, if I want railjack parts, I only play railjack. If I want non railjack equipment, I only play standard missions. I’d love to have a use for a lot of the resources I’ve been stockpiling for years. (For example, I could use ferrite and salvage to craft a 2 day armor buff for my ship. I could dump a bunch of plastids into those turrets I like to give them a damage buff. I could spend  neurodes and gallium to strengthen my shield recharge. Or I could just use those resources to repair wreckage.)

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So this is a little different. Everyone knows titianium is a problem, I'm sure you've seen the feedback littered throughout this thread. No I'm here to talk about something you gave out too easily:

Dirac

You guys messed up on the Dirac economy. I have a maxed out avionics grid with a lot of avionics maxed out (I'm missing a few zetki mods still but nothing i won't be able to max when i get them).

In one weekend i trivialized Dirac. I'm not complaining, just letting you know the economy of Dirac is way off.

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Not sure if it is part of Economy, but I'd like to discuss the limited slots for Railjack components, weapons and wreckage.. First the regular Components & Armaments slots

  • If you know, you know. You can find them on the market, but there is no indication of how many you have, how many you might want and need and how many are in use now (basic mk 0 stuff?).
  • When it comes to turrets, it feels like you need quite a few to be able to have a good ship: there are 5 different weapons (Apoc, Carcinnox, Cryophon, Photor, Pulsar) in 4 different types (Sigma, Lavan, Vidar, Zetki). Even if we leave out sigma, I expect people to want at least 2 types of most weapons to be able to build for damage or for easier heatsink management, different weapons etc. Let's say 6 slots for the frugal no muss no fuss, 20 for the collector (we'll ignore the RNG of the weapons now).
  • Haven't found ordnance wreckage yet, no clue how many you need or want, so I'll say 3 for those right now.
  • Shields are funky, but generally you'll want to build for either the bonus, shield regen or shield amount. You can get by with 2, collectors will want more.
  • Engines are similar, so let's say 2 for those too.
  • Reactors you will probably want at least 3, because the stats are so important for play style, avionics cap for fits, flux for weapons, bonus for bonus.

So for a nice minimum I'd say 16, no clue how many we start with, but if it's 12 it is low, since you would need to buy so quickly. As a collector I'm fine with spending more, but I need to be able to see how many I have.

Wreckage, now here's a huge problem. Between weapons (5x3 = 15 unique drops, again ignoring RNG) and components (3x3 = 9 but with huge RNG differences) this is just far too little. It takes way too much time, effort and grinding to repair them compared to the repair drones, it reeks of pay to play in stead of the usual pay to avoid too much grind when this stuff is taken into consideration. Please consider buffing this to 45 spots or even 20 components and 20 weapons wreckage slots; losing good engines or a good reactor hurt so much when you can't even drop stuff you picked up during a mission (like in RPGs with limited inventory space, you can at least chose what you decide to keep, the auto scrap is a huge negative UX thing).

 

So, UI/UX DE peeps, I know you're overworked already, but this is another critical thing for the newest release. And the RNG balance really needs to be looked at and hopefully made visible somehow, if we get RNG let us at least see what the ranges are (so we don't have to try and get some online sheet)

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Pls increase the 30 MK blueprints capacity that we can have, that auto scrapping makes people worried and we can't see how many we own while we are in the ship. If there is no way to raise the cap, at least give us a way to see how many we got = ?/30 under our profile intrinsic menu for example. 

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I don't even have Empyrean yet since I'm on console, but I'm reading about 12 hour build times on the loot that you pick up to upgrade your ship.  

You know, how literally every other loot and progression based game in existence DOESN'T work?  From OG Diablo to Borderlands and all the way down to the indie titles like Grim Dawn, you kill stuff, it drops loot, you sort through it and find something neat and you equip it.  It's fun and rewarding.

How the hell did you manage to screw that gameplay loop up so badly that you had to introduce a 12 hour time-gate?  I'm really hoping I'm misunderstanding what everyone is talking about, because if I have to waste 12 hours building a new set of RNG guns, only for a better set of RNG guns to drop during that time, only to end up in a cycle where I'm perpetually waiting to actually use my drops, I'm never playing Empyrean.  That alone sounds like enough hardcore BS to put me off continuing to play this game.  

Nevermind how utterly uninspired, unrewarding and tedious all the content you've put out in the last year has been.  Nevermind how Empyrean doesn't look like it has even 1/10th of what it was touted to have over a year ago at Tennocon 2018.  If you're going to take the RNG loot grind that other games have and add it to this one, and then totally prolapse it out by time-gating the everliving hell out of it, that's way over the line.

Half of what I like about this game's itemization is the fact that the RNG for farming parts of weapons or materials can be focused down, so you know where you're grinding and for what.  You can just go and craft a Corinth after farming the materials, and there's specific places to grind for the specific mods that you only need to find once.  There's less luck involved in getting a good weapon, and power is in the mods which you can also focus your grind for, rather than everything being totally random like in a Diablo style game.  The only saving grace for pure RNG loot drop games like Borderlands and Diablo is that they drop a LOT of loot, don't auto trash anything over a certain amount like you seem to think is okay to do, and no one has ever been Apple-removing-the-headphone-jack dumb brave enough to put time-gates on RNG loot drops.  Who is even designing this mess anymore?  Your accountants?

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3 minutes ago, HeartPurity said:

Pls increase the 30 MK blueprints capacity that we can have, that auto scrapping makes people worried and we can't see how many we own while we are in the ship. If there is no way to raise the cap, at least give us a way to see how many we got = ?/30 under our profile intrinsic menu for example. 

I don't have the update yet (console)

Are you seriously telling me there's no active inventory management system for items that they auto-trash if you pick up too many?  Inventory is one of the key components of an RNG loot system like this.  How do you get this so wrong after being in game development this long?

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So, I just saw the official drop tables and I have to say that the reward structure makes no sense. All missions in each zone and all caches yield the same rewards. This doesn’t really make sense to me, but I guess isn’t that big a deal. It does kind of suck that a half hour mission has a 2% to give you a particular railjack part, but I understand those are stat variations on the sigma versions of the parts, so I’ll live with it.

The thing I have a problem with is the Avionics drop rates, particularly the battle ones. Most of these sit at a measly 0.1% drop rate. When coupled with the fact that avionics drift away in combat, this means that most people aren’t going to be able to use railjack abilities for a long time. This just feels bad. 

Here’s how to fix: boost the mod drop chance, remove momentum from mod drops in combat, and either auto collect all mods or buff the vacuum range. This will make resource gathering and mod hunting way more enjoyable and won’t require us to spend tons of time looting missions upon completion.

I like this update, but not the drop rates. Please, please, make this more reasonable.

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Now that the drop tables seem to be updated with Railjack info: https://n8k6e2y6.ssl.hwcdn.net/repos/hnfvc0o3jnfvc873njb03enrf56.html

I'm curious what happened to the supposed Umbra Forma drops? Those don't seem to be mentioned. In fact, there doesn't seem to be anything interesting or useful dropping in the veil at all apart from MK3 components that nobody can afford to repair and some riven shards. 

If you're looking for suggestions on what kinds of things end-game players would like to see as potential drops in the hardest Railjack missions, I think it's just the same things they always suggest: large piles of kuva and I'd throw in a chance to get arcanes since I'm always looking for alternative ways to get them. If not existing ones, new ones? Maybe even toss in an arcane slot on all archwings and add some new archwing arcanes since we'll be using them a lot more if you keep adding RJ content. 

I also wouldn't mind them bringing back credit caches if they were like 100k credits each. You could do something like 25k caches form Earth, 50k from Saturn and 100k from the veil. That would actually be more useful than getting the same relic you eventually no longer need and have no reason to have that just piles up over time. 

Since each Veil node and the caches in that node have separate drop tables (though currently all with the same stuff), it could be nice to add different things to each nodes tables so you can chase certain things at different nodes. 

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Instead of puting relics as rewards and lowering the repair cost of stuff why not give generous ammounts of the new resources as mission rewards like 1500ish titanium and so on.

Also by putting just new resources in railjack missions you made it impossible for people to grind for their archwings while playing railjack which is a bit meh. Also you know, when you've been hoarding a lot of resources and then you go and put in new ones making old ones useless... It kinda sucks.

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Hey! So first of all, I've been having a lot of fun with Railjack! The space battles are awesome, and the teamwork feels like it's around a good sweet spot of "you need to work together but people can mostly figure out what they need to be doing." It feels good! And I actually really love the Intrinsics and Avionics systems, too, and the progression there feels really satisfying.

The equipment/wreckage progression feels kind of despondent, though. And I don't want to sound like I'm just super mad about everything, but here's the stuff that feels weird about it, as concisely as I can:

  • Losing rewards because you forgot to refine feels bad. This just feels like a quality-of-life thing, that "aw, dang, I did that whole mission and lost the materials I needed it for" feeling isn't very fun.
     
  • Resource rewards aren't signposted. So, if I'm out of repair glue and need Pustrels (or just need Pustrels in general) there's nothing that's flagged as "oh, that's a Pustrel Farm, so I'll get some if I blow that up!" This is especially a thing since the Forge mechanic means that it's possible to urgently need specific resources mid-mission.

    More broadly, it'd also be nice if mission rewards were shown for various nodes like they are with bounties, so it'd be easier to aim for specific things I need.
     
  • Payload costs coming at the expensive of progression feels bad. A bug meant that this wasn't happening for a bit, but now it's all, "Awesome, this mission got me 200 Pustrels! But I used 50 Pustrels' worth of repair glue and 100 Pustrels' worth of artillery shots, so I made a net profit of 50 Pustrels. I need 3,500 Pustrels to repair this cool gun, so I only have to do that (quick math) 70 more times."

    Or alternately, "okay, in order to make any progress I need to avoid using any of the cool stuff my ship has, and make sure I methodically scour every map for resources," which feels like I'm deliberately avoiding having fun.

    To fix this, it'd be nice if either...
    • Resources would be duplicated into both mission rewards and the Forge inventory, so you still have that "restock your ship with stuff you picked up along the way" mechanic (which is fun!) but without it setting you back from the stuff you want to build. 
      -- or -- 
    • Wreckage repair would use different materials (see below).
       
  • Repairing wreckage requiring huge piles of basic resources feels kinda bad. Since there's no way to aim specifically for a couple of components, it's just a matter of grinding the same missions over and over again until eventually I have enough stuff to build a thing -- which is exacerbated by the points above.

    This is a bigger economy rework, but it feels like it'd be nice if you could get the stuff you need to repair wreckage by scrapping other wreckage? This seems like it would make equipment crafting feel like less of an uphill slog, and make it nicer to get wreckage even if it's not strictly better than what you already have.

    So, for instance...
    • Repairing a gun might cost "3 Arc Coils, 5 Dermal Inducers, and 1000 Titanium." Better stuff would require more and/or different materials.
    • You might be able to scrap a gun for "1 Arc Coil, 1 Dermal Inducer, and 75 Titanium." Better wreckage would yield more and/or different materials, so it'd be worth more to scrap better stuff.
    • Dry Dock Research would let you use basic resource stockpiles to make these new materials, so you could craft "1 Dermal Inducer for 650 Cubic Diodes and 500 Pustrels" if you want to. (This is similar to how Fieldrons/Detonite Injectors/Mutagen Masses work now, where you can either chase them with missions or craft them at a greater expense if you just happen to have a surplus of stuff.)

I'm not actually sure how much it has to change to feel better, and I've definitely been on crews where the host has been navigating that successfully and already has some high-tier stuff? And I wonder if more mission variety might make it feel like less of a grind otherwise, but... yeah, it'd be nice if it got a little friendlier.

Thanks for listening!

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Update 27.0.5 totally wrecked dirac acquisition. This is a massive overall nerf, the increased values from scrapping components does not offset the loss from drops.

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More Avionics is nice, but the scrap rate for Avionics needs to be upped as well if you are going to nerf the Dirac drop rate so much. At this point I'm lucky if I get 100 Dirac a mission as most of the drops I get are avionics now.

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  • I like that resources gathered by the Railjack are gathered for the entire crew
  • I don't like that resources gathered by individual warframes aren't shared with everyone. PIloting is perhaps the most fun job, but they deserve the difficult to find resources found aboard crewships and stations too.
     
  • I like the tiers of equipment for Railjacks
  • I don't like that found shields, engines, and reactors have randomized stats. They require far too many resources to invest in to wind up encountering a same tier equipment that has better stats. If they required far fewer resources (the 12-hour timer is fine, the 24-hour grind with a resource booster is not), I would build this equipment. With the system as it is now, I have little incentive to experiment and invest in these random drops until I have verified I have gotten a good roll. That prevents me from building at all.

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The away team loot not being shared is really bad. The looting range of the ship needs to be something like 1km. It's absolutely not fun to have to exit and run around to get everything. Then even if you do that currently, the cost of reparing wreckages is... exhausting, to put it mildly. I'm used to farming in free to play games but your update is more grindy than some of the most pay to win asian games. Please do something about it.

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Problem: Currently, players are heavily discouraged from interacting with the wreckage-repairing mechanic

As much as I would like to feel the intended linear progression from mkI to mkIII weapons/gear on my railjack, there's simply no reason to bother repairing almost any wreckage atm.

Reasons:

1) MkI and MkII stuff is completely irrelevant because MkIII bps can be easily acquired without them. I assume we were intended to repair low level wreckage in order to complete higher level missions and get the better stuff, but since completing veil missions is quite possible with a full squad using archwings and the mk0 gear, there's no incentive to repair anything short of an optimal mkIII item. And by optimal, I mean:

2) RNG stats make repairing anything less than a God roll wreckage item an exercise in foolishness. If we players are gonna sink the enormous amounts of resources required into a ship upgrade, we want to know damn well that it isn't a waste of our hard earned mats. But since wreckage has RNG bonuses, nobody wants to repair stuff without knowing that it's at least a decent roll, and preferably a top tier roll.

And thus, since even late railjack can be completed without touching wreckage at all, there's no reason to bother with the intended mkI->II->III progression, and players are actively encouraged to not touch the system at all until they have the best mk3 wreckage obtainable. 

This is a shame since I'd like to feel the upgrade progression, but I'm discouraged from wasting resources/time on lower level/bad roll stuff.

Typically, looter games have crafting costs attached to a true linear progression system like intrinsics, where the previous level must be acquired in order to progress to the next. RNG-based gear, on the other hand, drops fully built so players don't have to invest too much into a stepping stone item.

Conclusions:

1. Linear progression cannot be "opt-in", otherwise players will (attempt to) skip the intermittent steps 

2. Crafting costs cannot be a requirement to use "stepping stone" RNG-stat gear, otherwise players will simply not use them.

My suggestions:

1. Change the mk1/2/3 system to be a true linear progression. All gear (clantech and wreckage) starts at mkI, and crafting costs apply in order to upgrade from 1 to 2 and from 2 to 3. Clantech mk2 and mk3 "fabrication" research would be changed into the research needed to upgrade gear to mk2 or mk3

2. All wreckage drops fully built, but as previously mentioned, only at mkI. Obviously god roll drops will still be sought after, but now we can actually use gear that might not be "optimal" without sinking a ton of resources into what would be a waste.

3.a. Scrapping built wreckage refunds a higher percentage of resources - between 80 and 100% - in order to decrease the opportunity cost of upgrading a non-optimal wreckage. Otherwise people will still wait for their god roll to drop before upgrading past mkI.

3.b. Alternatively, gear could be received at all levels mk1-3, but chances to receive mk1/2/3 would have to be adjusted dynamically for each player depending on their railjack's average gear level (i.e. a player with all mk2 gear except for a mk3 shield array would receive mk2 items commonly, mk3 uncommonly and mk1 rarely).

Overall this would help the wreckage system actually have a linear progression, and would prevent people from skipping the entire 1->2->3 progression while they wait for that 2% drop rate god roll mk3 vidar reactor wreckage to repair and use.

(as an added bonus, the cost in plat to go from basic to mk3 gear would triple, and so the empyrean grind would feel much less invalidated by plat farming while also increasing the dough y'all rake in)

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