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[DE]Bear

(PC) Empyrean: Economy Feedback Megathread

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My only concern is that at the time of writing there is no way to reclame resources from wreckage that you do not fully restore. I'm glad you get half back when you do restore it but there are some that i have started and now know Im not going to use. 

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I have to run saturn for like 100 times due to certain avionics drop(hyperstrike), but since this is tier 2 all the gear drops are literal trash.

Doesn't feel good at all, i want some way to get rid of it.

Something like high level node for every type of enemies.

 

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I like that there are rewards in railjack missions that affect the rest of the game aswell. I do think that getting 1 relic for a full railjack mission is not enough. Killing 6 crewships and 90 fighters on top of the other objectives just takes way too long.

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Railjack economy, to put in bluntly is a colossal mess at the moment:

- Avionics drop rates need to be looked at, especially for battle & tactical avionics which seem to be extremely rare drops at the moment. I have cleared all the missions, done several hours of farming for various regular avionics and resources to build a mostly mk3 kitted out ship - yet I havent seen a single battle avionics drop and only 1 tactical.

- Avionics drop locations are badly designed as specific versions of avionics are dropping in certain locations, players need to grind out content they have vastly outgeared. Repeating hours upon hours of completely trivial railjack missions is not fun at all and I'd rather have a clear progression where you do more difficult content to obtain better rewards.

- Way too much focus on Zetki component drops and most of them are awful. When your own patch notes described: "House Zetki's components were considered the best of the best. However, their exorbitant resource and energy requirements meant that only the fleet's most important vessels could be outfitted with Zetki technology.", why is it that they drop like candy and in a lot of cases are lot worse than Vidar, Lavan and heck if you really get some "nice" RNG they might be even worse than the regular Sigma components.

- Component baseline stats need to be looked at, it feels really bad to get a MK3 component only to find out it has worse stats than your MK2 component. Not to mention if you get a drop that has worse stats than a Sigma component and would require significantly more rare resources to repair.

- Wreckage repair costs are way too high, to the point where it takes several hours to get enough resources to repair a single component. This combined with the fact that rush repair drones for platinum exists to skip the entire grind is a pretty bad outlook.

- Railjack mission time spent vs rewards obtained value feels way off to me, while this may seem like an odd comment: I think adding a significantly larger vacuum (if you can shoot it, you should auto loot it via vacuum) radius to railjack would cut off at least a couple to a few minutes from each mission and I think would make the experience more enjoyable in general - I find it difficult to believe there is enjoyment to be found in flying around and trying to see if you looted all the avionics or wreckage etc.

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On a vacation, been playing consistently since release, still didn't see a single lavan or vidar reactor while repeating the same, at this point boring and dull, mission for the xxxth time.
And even when I'll get one there is a chance it'll be complete garbage thanks to the RNG stats.
Playing a warframe with no reactor is not fun, this is the same.
I don't see how you guys thought this would ever be ok.

PS: Zetki reactors are supposed to focus on flux, but when they barely give you enough capacity to slot the essentials ( with how bad a base railjack is) you have a spot for 1 single battle avionic. Spot the issue: They're focused on flux but you have enough capa for one single lonely skill. Which makes them immidiatly worthless as soon as you drop a good vidar.

The schools gimmick is just there to increase the grind. People will go for the maxed avios and a good capa reactor. If you guys wanted something more than an illusion of choice, you should have made the base railjack not complete garbage and the avionics difference between schools not miles apart.

What the schools should be: the difference between putting an umbra forma on a frame or not, minor, can easily be disregarded
What they really are: the difference betweeen putting a reactor on your frame and modding it with mods vs no reactor and using broken mods with the limited space you have.

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For the most part i would say that the resources need to be changed and reduced by like 2-3 times on almost all of them

in the last 3 hours i spend grinding up copernics and roughly got somewhere around 2.5k-3k where some MK2 stuff needs 4k for the base version and 7k for the zekti. well over double of what 3 hours of deticated copernic farm(well as best method i could figure out).

cubic diodes are like the only ones that dont seam bad because of what actually drops them because there used for revolite the most used payload and even then i still say that should be atleset half

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i find the repair costs on parts to be kind of over the top in cost

also building them on research is also a bit much when it costs a lot of grindy new resources when the pickup rate is low and vacuum range is low

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So one of the issues that some people want to be frugal with resource usage, and that's understandable to try and get to their next upgrade as soon as possible. Then there's the issue of how wide resources are scattered, which detracts from wanting to collect them, or being to costly to ones time. So i have a few suggestions that may alleviate some of these frustrations.

So for resources collected, all players get everything collected directly to there personal stockpile, at the same time a copy is given to the railjack for use in essential materials, this will remove any anxiety of wasting resources and promote more frequent collection. This also makes it so the "refine" option can be removed since it's obsolete with this active

And on the point of scattered resources, i feel that all free floating resources so at the least slowly float towards the railjack over time, so that while it won't remove the need to pick up items manually, they will still cluster up and be easier to collect and also improve visibility since they will be clustering together en route to your ship. Also, when resources fly off of destroyed objects/enemies have them fly towards the damage source instead of a random direction, while not feeling realistic it would help

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Why on earth would I use any of the Mk I or Mk II Clan Sigma components?

In a little over 9 days I'll have researched everything in the dry dock and the cost to fabricate Mk III's are negligible. During those 9 days if a better "House" component dropped, well that's just gravy on top.

If someone joins a clan that already has the research done they don't even have to wait 9 days, just grind for a week until the have the materials to fabricate Mk III's.

Same issue with with "House" Mk I weapons and components. Why would I waste resources on any of that.

What's the point?

As far as I can tell my best course of action is hold out for Sigma Clan Mk III research to finish unless I get a fantastic Mk II or decent Mk III "House" drop.

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There is absolutely no good reason to build MK1 or MK2 as soon as your reasearchs ended. This system lead most of my clan to wait before even trying railjack in their own ship to prevent material waste. This is very bad, MK1 or 2 are useless and i think making it available now was a mistake. As for the archwing : most of my usual teamate don't want to play with it in railjack because of the lack of fun being one shoot in space. Just try to make a MK1 as a real player : it's impossible to gather enough material without being bored enough to ALT+F4... And you need 2 primary weapons...

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Large problem i see is the cliff-steep initial investment. What a lot forget is that once you repped a part and then wish to get a new one you can scrap the old one for half it's costs, but for that start softening the blow of the grind you still have to first get enough components so you can have atleast 2 of them at the same time (Use one while another is under repair). Do that times 5 for the various parts and things get rather pricey. The "People just dont have a Stockpile yet" is pretty valid, but people do not need to be able to make said stockpile to begin with and right now that is going incredibly tedious requiring them to dedicated hours to Railjack as the resources are non-existant elsewhere in useful capacity (thus reinforcing the "Tedious grind" mentality). That is ignoring the Avionics with the massive amount of fodder mods in the form of Vidar and Lavan mods that are woefully inferior to their Zetki counterpart.

I honestly was hoping for the avionics schools to actually matter in some way. Like that all Resistance mods where Lavan, Utility Vidar and core Zetki or a bit of a corrupted mod like tradeoff (no. requiring more power is not really a trade off). Rather than Zetki being all that matters with the rest being essentially little more than glorified Damaged mods.

Also for supposedly "High-end demanding gear only used by elite" Zetki weapons make up for 95% of all weapon wrecks ive encountered so far. That just doesn't make sense and has been a major pain as this causes for a LOT of ships to be flying out there with Zetki weapons, but lacking the avionics (heat-cap) and people with the intrinsics to compensate for how Zetkis want to heat up like it was being dipped in lava.

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The RNG on some railjack components is ridiculous, farming for hours for a 2% drop only for it to roll garbage stats is painful enough. To sit in a group and see others get a good roll while your drop is utterly useless is straight up sadistic. There is no skill to his, no proper preparation. You do the same mission over and over and over and 98% of runs you are taunted by rewards that are absolutely useless. You can afk leech off of others (as many do) and get better rewards than the one carrying you. This is RNG at its absolute worst.

 

What am I gonna do with this? I am unable to progress upgrades for my railjack because I am unable to get a proper reactor. I've been stuck for a 5 days with no upgrades while my friends who play not even half as much are fully kitted out. They even got all their gear in missions where I was present, they just had better luck on the stat rolls. They got 90+ rolls twice. I ended up with 32 and 54.

jGgwf5N.png

And yes I am salty.

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In the love of all Tenno please remove this RNG on Items or at least let us grind somthing to upgrade bad rolled Items
e.g.:

  • Player 1 gets a RJ weapon with +60% (max value) damage (god roll) he is lucky and done.
  • Player 2 gets a RJ weapon with +40% damage and he can spend (polish the weapon) with e.g. Dirac to boost the 40% step by step until the weapon is at 60%.
  • Player 3 gets a  RJ weapon with +20% damage (min value) so he can decide to grind for a new weapon with more +damage% whats highly possible to get and then grinds it up like player 2 OR he can grind even more Dirac (or Recource X) to boost polish the weapon all the way trom 20 to 60.

Grinding (to a finishline) is fine but grinding that is absolutely pointless and is purely related to luck does not make fun and results in frustration and burnout

In all the upper cases there is a finishline that has "some" RNG into it BUT it is 100% reachable by putting effort in the game without having luck only.


If you find this is a good and/or possible (partial) solution, PLEASE UPVOTE

 

edit: btw imo this also should count on Lich Weapons

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As far as the loot in general in raijack...

-Its super hard to see any loot dropped by fighters or crewships

-The rest is actually alright....if you have the time to get off the ship and go collect it.   Because 90% of the res in a mission is in breakable objects and that means searching all the asteroids, mine fields, interesting bits that are on the map.  I usually get bored and tap out at 1 hour.  I saw awesome amount of loot but I also had a res booster.  If I didnt have it, and I halved all my results doing that would not seem worth it for an hour.    Maybe just make some big ass loot containers that get highlighted like an objective only in a different color.  

-Research vs wreckage...  I still have a day+ to go on all my tier 1 newbie gear.  I have a a bit of wreckage and I am already repairing that crap.   So im already equipping tier 1 gear before my stupid research in dojo is finished.   That doesnt seem right.  Newbie tier 1 gear should unlock ALOT faster and for way cheaper than the wreckage stuff.   The wreckage stuff is suppose to have better stats.  For ship parts they absolutely do but,  brand name weapons are just as crappy as dojo weapons..... 

But considering you need to go search out all the breakable on a map to build up the materials it takes to research/repair the numbers it takes are abolutely horrible.   Farming maps after a mission is over is impossible with a rando group.  Pilots are to busy dog fight during a mission to pick up anything.   So most missions you barely get anthing unless the 3 other people in the mission spend time grabbing stuff during the mission which is pretty deadly.  

The cost for missiles/artillery is a bummer.

 

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P-l-e-a-s-e add Kinetic Diversion to Railjack in some way.  It is a rare, effective and tactically unique mod that is also one of the rarest in the game.  Please consider it's useage, corrected for archwing usage bias.

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I haven't repaired a single component or built anything I've researched yet, I've just been saving things to eventually upgrade my own ship (which I've had this entire time as I built one before the update came out, but I'm not paying plat to rush upgrades). 

Despite that, I still do not have enough Asterite to repair a single MKIII reactor as the first thing I would have repaired. Dozens of missions, played in the Veil quite a bit, but this resource is the only thing I don't have enough of to repair my FIRST MKIII component.

Reading about it, it seems some people suggest the best way to farm it is to just do an Earth mission and then fly around shooting at asteroids over and over again for hours since even then you get less than 100 per mission without a booster. You do this because Veil after-mission mining is apparently not any better, but it takes a lot longer to clear the mission before going on your boring asteroid shooting adventure. 

My suggestion would be to add a lot more Asterite to Veil missions from actually doing the objectives. Also add it as a decent sized bonus loot possibility. If it's currently possible, I've never noticed getting any as a bonus reward in dozens of missions. 

----------

On a different note, I'd echo what some people are saying about having a way to upgrade components over time rather than just having to find the same item dozens of times trying to get the best roll. Given that we're repairing the items in the first place, progressively upgrading them towards their max rolls would make sense and would be a reasonable thing to work towards progressively instead of having to wonder if you'll EVER get a max or really high rolled version via RNG. 

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On 2019-12-20 at 7:53 PM, nighter3d said:

Also for supposedly "High-end demanding gear only used by elite" Zetki weapons make up for 95% of all weapon wrecks ive encountered so far. That just doesn't make sense and has been a major pain as this causes for a LOT of ships to be flying out there with Zetki weapons, but lacking the avionics (heat-cap) and people with the intrinsics to compensate for how Zetkis want to heat up like it was being dipped in lava.

Making Zetki the high heat weapon is just a baffling choice for me.  Constant overheating is a trait I associate with stuff that's either poorly made or Bubba rigged, not ultra high end equipment.

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The randomness of wreckage drops needs to be scaled back, A LOT. After days of doing the exact same mind numbing mission, I finally got a Vidar Reactor Mk III to drop. Only to find out that all of its stats are worse than the Sigma Reactor Mk III and only slightly better than the Sigma Reactor Mk II that takes a fraction of the materials to build. Wreckage should at least be equivalent or better to research blueprints especially given the amount of resources they take.

If there is one thing DE needs to fix to avoid killing off Railjack before it even begins, it's the loot. Don't pull a Diablo III / Destiny / Anthem and burn your player base out by giving them terrible drops.

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how about make something like riven reroll system to railjack components?

for example you get a MK III Vidar Reactor from mission

you may not like the capacity stats

so you can use the Dirac to reroll them

MK I reroll start from 100 , MK II start from 200 , MK III start from 300 like that

and every time you reroll the component , will cost you more Dirac

this suggest can also solve the Dirac too much problem as well

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13 hours ago, zuraja said:

Making Zetki the high heat weapon is just a baffling choice for me.  Constant overheating is a trait I associate with stuff that's either poorly made or Bubba rigged, not ultra high end equipment.

Zetki heat management is utter crap:

- damage is barely 60% more than other versions;

- heat is 300% the standard;

- only bonuses seen so far on MK II is fire rate, aggravating heat management;

Heat would be justifiable if damage was 200% of other brands of weapons, otherwise the cost/benefit is screwed and badly

Other brand parts/weapons drop way less than Zetki

 

N.B. Particle Ram is a godsent to farm asteroids and breackable objects in space:

- it extends farther than the useless ship vacuum

- it breacks all breackables in tis path

- its a huge energy scoop before the ship - energy color is based on what?

- railjack resembles a cetacean or a shark feeding while using it XD

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Hi, this is more of a QoL thing, but its impossible to cancel a build's once u start it. can we have the option to scrap a build in 'progress'? I accidentally misclicked and all my resources are going to a part that i do not want.

 

rOLGfIx.jpg

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My squad and I have almost reached the end of the Veil now and what I'm worried about is that we'll pretty much be done with it afterwards. Railjack is kinda fun, even with all the bugs and general jank at this point, but the rewards just aren't there. The only things to get that benefit us outside of Railjack seem to be Relics, Forma BPs and Riven Slivers (Weapons aside). But Railjack missions take far too long to be worth it for a single Relic or the occasional Forma drop. Riven Slivers, well... Only other place to get those is from Requiem Relics, but those are a much more viable choice, too. I don't think Railjack can stand on its own yet as far as long-term relevance is concerned and I do think that it needs more worthwhile rewards for the overall game.

Such as Warframe Arcanes. Those are still exclusive to Eidolon hunts, which are also designed to be a team effort and take a while to finish. It would be awesome if you gave us the Veil Proxima as an equal alternative to earning those coveted Arcanes and could even be justified in Warframe lore. 

pls gib Arcanes

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Variant Stats and Loot

The current way how Wreckage is being handled, specifically the MK3 parts is frustrating. Their drop chance combined with the countless variations it can have can easily burn someone who is trying to get that "Perfect" part since, let's be honest. DE had always given us the ability to create variations in our build, whether it be how we mod our Warframes to our Guns, we had control on what we want so we can freely ENJOY the game.

Come along Rivens, their randomness and combination of stats can either make or break the game for us, there are some who wants to get the strongest stats possible and there are those who simply wants a good riven for them to enjoy their favorite weapon. Players took a while for them to actually don't mind farming for rivens since players have accumulated tons of rivens enough for them to trade with other players, find the ones they want and trade away the ones they don't want to those who do want it. Regardless, you don't necessarily require Rivens to actually enjoy the game, they provide a good stat boost for your weapons, but even without it - you can still complete the entirety of the game without it.

Next comes the Kuva Liches, these ones in their current iteration is very much welcoming. Despite the steps you need to actually need to kill these ones for their weapon with random stats, you actually see what you are getting before fully committing yourself to it. You have slight control on the bonuses you get which comes in the form of what Warframe you wish to be the Progenitor of your Kuva Lich, and even then we have received word from DE on ways to manipulate the way we can get our Kuva Liches in the future in the form of possibly allowing us to remove our undesired Kuva Lich. Overall, the Kuva Lich is become a good side-system that you don't entirely need to focus on, but provides itself with some nice bonuses if you do want to go that direction.

Finally, comes the Wreckage - specifically MK3 ones. This one is a total mess. The amount of parts you would need that has the same aspect the two detailed above has the total of 4. We have the Shield Array, Engines, Reactor, and the Weapons. Each one has varying stats that are completely randomized as well the drop chance, combining that with TONS of resources you need to invest. How is this one a total mess? It is quite simple really. Take a Vidar Reactor MK3 for example, it is an end-mission reward with 2% drop chance and even then it has randomized stats that might not even help you in the long term. Surely, if you got a good one, eventually at some point you will obtain a slightly better one and then you can get 50% of the resources you've invested on it. 

Let's compare this to a popular shooter-looter game. The Borderlands franchise. You have Shields, Grenades, Class Mods, Artifacts and finally, your Guns. Every single factor of your character from the ones I mentioned before can be completely random, but they always have a set standard where it can be reliable even if some of the stats are completely off. Class Mods for example always provide certain bonuses to your skills and may vary from +1 to +5. Even then, you're getting a positive bonus out of it even if it's a +1. Not only that, the one thing that actually makes Borderlands a Shooter-Looter game is that you don't have to worry about the LOOTING aspect as you can be sure that these items and guns can drop almost everywhere so you can truly enjoy the SHOOTING aspect of the game. There will be times where you have to change your stuff every now and then due to getting better guns, shields, grenades, class mods or artifacts, but even then IT COSTS YOU NOTHING to get them. You just simply need to kill enemies and loot whatever lootable container out there, even then it might drop a bad gun, but hey it's something.

Returning back to Empyrean, notice the bolded words there? You can't even enjoy any of those when playing through Empyrean without sacrificing the other. Want to get a better cannon for your Railjack? You'll have to pray for an enemy to drop that shiny purple thing out in space where the chances of seeing it from your ship is.. well - Hopefully you notice it. Change of scenario, now that you've got a good cannon that you think might be worth your while, now is the time to invest some resources and time. Tons of isolated resources that are found exclusively in this mission in large amounts alongside with a 12-Hour wait time. Good, you've done it. But wait! You found a much better gun and you want to invest on this one. Guess what, you're getting back 50% of the resources you've invested on the previous and wasted 12 hours on waiting on it. Oh hey, look there's also a Rush Repair Drone for 50 Platinum that you can purchase to instantly skip all of these. Definitely a way to ease your suffering to skip the looting aspect of the game and just go straight to shooting, but what's the fun in that in a shooter-looter game.

I know these aspects makes Warframe, Warframe. The Time Gate and investment of resources on everything is something everyone is used to since it had existed way too long that veterans knows the standard procedure when obtaining a new item in the game. But combining old features with new ones can spell disaster when not watched properly. Specifically, time gate and resource investment on a totally RNG drop with RNG stats. So I would like to offer some suggestions that you guys might consider while improving Railjack:
 

  • Remove Time Gate (The 12-Hour Wait Time) and keep the Resource Investment. You can even reduce the amount of returns when scrapping it from 50% to 25% given you no longer need to wait to actually use the gun, shield array, reactor, or engines and test it out.
  • Full Refund on Resource Investment and drastically reduce the Time Gate. Quite a simple change really, 100% scrap yields (you can remove the Dirac here) and cut down the time to wait to 1~2 hours. Same reason as above, test the part without worrying any loss of resources.
  • Massively increased drop chance. Diluted drop tables had always been an issue in Warframe, but in Railjack, it serves to connect to the actual game. You might get Relics which you can use, but let's be honest. In a new system that you've introduced with all the shiny things a player can obtain, why take that away the chance for them to actually enjoy this Empyrean Game Mode by introducing way too many things that they can obtain, but not specifically helpful in Railjack missions? If you were to make them as common drops where they drop every once in a while, that would actually allow players to consider what they want to invest in with a selection of choices they've obtained throughout the game. Running an hour of Empyrean and only getting a single Reactor, Engine, or Shield Array due to bad RNG, what's there to consider? You might as well join someone else's Railjack who happen to have better chances than you and are actually enjoying the game themselves. You might get a taste of that enjoyment without dying or having to constantly repair fires, electricity and hull breaches and enjoy the shooter-aspect of the Railjack provided the host doesn't leave.
  • Reduced Resource Investment and Reduced Time Gate. Similar to the 2nd one, just cut down the resources you need to repair a wreckage and reduce the time gate.

So far, those are what I can recommend for possibly improving Railjack itself. Increasing the resource amount is greatly welcome, but when faced with RNG on top of RNG stats, it's not really worth the investment... nor the 12-hour wait time. There's also a few possible things I want to touch on.

  • Remove Rush Repair Drone. This one is quite simple really, remove the 50 Platinum cost in the market and replace them with an already existing system. Rushing. Straight platinum to rush a fully resource invested wreckage. What makes this great is that even with the current system, if you've waited for 6 hours or whatever time is remaining, the amount of platinum to rush gets reduced. So why not use this? You've already increased the resource amount drop and the only purpose now of a Rush Repair Drone is to save on those resources and cut down the 12-hour wait time, but let's be honest. People don't like to wait when you've finally got the part you've been looking for countless hours. You've got tons of resources to spend, so why not?
  • No More Vacuum. Kill an enemy or just breaking an asteroid? Just send them straight to the players everything they drop. No need to chase an enemy 20k meters away from the rest of your team since it decided to roll towards a random direction in its dying breath (looking at you cutters). You are completely missing tons of beneficial things when you move too far from your enemy, namely affinity share. 
  • Static and Dynamic Bonuses shown. This one is just a minor change in the UI. Simply show X + Y Effect. Wherein X is static across all items of the same kind and Y is the additional bonuses you gain. Let's say for guns, a Zekti-variant would have a standard +20% Damage or +15% Fire Rate + X Damage/Fire Rate. So whatever Zekti-variant you obtained, you would always have that bonus, even if the additional damage or fire is a laughable 1% increase, it's still a positive thing regardless.

I'm really enjoying Railjack, it's one of aspect of Warframe that I can actually sink my time in despite how long the mission can take and a refreshing new system in Warframe. There's always going to be some minor hiccups and whatnot, but I do truly believe it has potential for a great co-op mission for everyone to enjoy. Oh, one last thing I would like to present as a suggestion:
 

  • Borrowed Shields, Engines, Guns. This one would only work in Pre-Made Squads as this would actually allow you to and your squadmates to temporarily lend either a Shield Array, Engine, or Guns for your Host's Railjack for the missions you guys will be running until you guys return to the dry dock. If your squad mate has a better shield array, why not allow it to be installed in your Railjack briefly. Same goes with Engines and Guns. I know Reactors won't work as they drastically affect the Avionic and Flux capacity of the Host's ship so I won't bother with that.

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basic functionality mods such as bulkhead (ship health) and hyperstrike (ship damage) really need to be more common. they are going on 100 and 200 plat respectively. the fact that there are useless versions of these mods really reminds me of some of the worst aspects of RNG mods from the beta version of warframe, with none of the fun aspects

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