Arch-Gun Hitscan Nerf is Painful

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, Skaleek said:

@Voltage, gotta disagree with you here. Having non-hitscan weapons is a staple of space simulator games.

Maybe just for once Warframe could stop trying to be a game that it isn't. Sure projectiles make sense in that one Halo: Reach mission, Elite Dangerous, etc, but Archwing in Warframe was never this kind of gameplay.

Also, how does it make sense for a weapon to simultaneously be a projectile (that is also slow) in space while also being hitscan on land???

Spin this excuse for this change however you want, but clearly DE nerfed weapons and Itzal before Railjacked in order to sell the update.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Voltage

[Skaleek]

54 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Maybe just for once Warframe could stop trying to be a game that it isn't. Sure projectiles make sense in that one Halo: Reach mission, Elite Dangerous, etc, but Archwing in Warframe was never this kind of gameplay.

Also, how does it make sense for a weapon to simultaneously be a projectile (that is also slow) in space while also being hitscan on land???

Spin this excuse for this change however you want, but clearly DE nerfed weapons and Itzal before Railjacked in order to sell the update.

I think they probably tested it with hit-scan still incorporated in railjack and made the executive decision to remove all hit-scan. I think this is a scenario where gameplay trumps the rest. This is all conjecture of course I dont speak for DE, but it seems to me if we did have hit-scan weapons it would allow us to trivialize the content. Although if they made a steep enough fall-off from X distance, i suppose this would also accomplish protecting the system from snipers who are staying out of the area of engagement and picking off the fighters.

I'm of the opinion that I do not mind, although regular AW appears to have suffered. Also my feedback is coming from only the first 3 missions, so i may need more time to soak in the impact and see how it affects me at the later stages of play.

One thing i will say though, I don't believe they are doing this change because they are trying to be a game they aren't. I think they made it this way because it fits their vision of what they want their space combat to be.

[MJ12]

2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

The cnahges were definitely not applied to Atmospheric Archguns. The patch notes were pretty clear on this subject. Atmospheric Archguns use an entirely separate weapon implementation so those were not affected. Archwing missions, however, WERE affected. I just jumped into one to confirm and YUP! Projectiles have travel time and also projectiles drawn in space. My Imperator used to reliably hit enemies even a kilometer away though obviously with reduced damage. Landing those shots is no longer going to happen. The problem is that there's no mechanical distinction between Archwings in Railjack missions and Archwings on, say, Salacia. The only distinction is between those and Archwings on the Plains/Vallis, where the flight model is STILL DIFFERENT for some stupid reason. You can't really use Archguns with Archwings on Free Roam maps, though (Archwing Launcher is blocked when in Archwing mode and Archgun is recalled when entering Archwing mode). Space Archwing nodes are really going to suffer, though.

Unless DE are planning to straight-up SCRAP the 9 or so dedicated Archwing nodes and move Archwing space combat purely to Railjack missions, this is going to constitute a significant nerf to a mission type that's already highly unpopular for a litany of reasons.

Give Archwing/Railjack weapons a slight degree of projectile homing (like, 5 degrees of arc) and give us a proper lead indicator by default without any requirements for levelups. There, you can keep the visual effect of projectiles while actually allowing mobile combat at long ranges against fast-moving foes.

For some reason, DE really hates the concept of autoaim despite the fact that subtle aim assist is an extremely powerful tool in balancing gamefeel. Destiny 2's biggest and most serious improvement over Warframe is honestly the fact that it straight-up gives all weapons aim assist so you never have what seem like BS misses.

The projectile nature of these guns wouldn't be a big deal if they actually curved towards enemies a little bit, because then it'd just be "keep gun at lead indicator, continue firing" which is about the level of complexity Railjack/Archwing should have regarding aiming when you need to move around so much.

[Skaleek]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

flight stick cuz well.. that's how you played those games back in the day

I had a super basic joystick for descent and freespace. Descent was my first real pc game and I grew up on it. Respect.

[Xzorn]

7 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

I had a super basic joystick for descent and freespace. Descent was my first real pc game and I grew up on it. Respect.

Sadly I missed Freespace. I played Descent 1, 2 and 3. I dunno why. I think maybe I was distracted with X-Wing Vs Tie fighter?
Something got in the way but wish I tried it. I started with a basic 3 button flight stick then upgraded later. Didn't get much use out of it though as that genre seemed to kinda die off shortly after. I still keep tabs on Descent Underground but... I dunno, it seems faithful I'm just not real hyped and it's a super small Dev team.

[Skaleek]

1 minute ago, Xzorn said:

Sadly I missed Freespace. I played Descent 1, 2 and 3. I dunno why. I think maybe I was distracted with X-Wing Vs Tie fighter?
Something got in the way but wish I tried it. I started with a basic 3 button flight stick then upgraded later. Didn't get much use out of it though as that genre seemed to kinda die off shortly after. I still keep tabs on Descent Underground but... I dunno, it seems faithful I'm just not real hyped and it's a super small Dev team.

When my brother and I first heard of Archwing in 2014, we started spitballing and imagining if it was like Descent and/or Freespace. I, like you, preferred the more descent like movement system we used to have, Although the inertia we have now does make it so close to what descent was, without the correct degrees of freedom. Being able to strafe was something that most other games of its kind didn't really incorporate, but I got so good at turning + strafing to give me that little edge when after burning through tight levels. Good times. Someone earlier mentioned Descent had hitscan weapons, i think that was just the vulcan and gauss though, and I'm not sure if they were entirely hitscan or just really fast projectile speed.

I'm not familiar with Descent Underground but now I'm curious, gotta check it out.

Freespace did grand scale battles better than anything I've ever played. Cruisers with flak turrets/beam weapons meant you weren't gonna do crap to them with an interceptor fighter, and it was all on your bombers to get the job done. The scale on those massive cruisers compared to fighters, it was just something i've never seen done well again. I haven't gotten far in railjack but if it even gives me faint nostalgia of freespace 1/2, well, I'll be grateful.

 

[-LB-Tanuki]

Fluctus is the worst, it simply can not keep up with fighters speed, making you unable to kill a thing while in railjack mission. Other than that, I don't have a problem with all weapons being projectile based.

[DoomFruit]

13 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Freespace did grand scale battles better than anything I've ever played. Cruisers with flak turrets/beam weapons meant you weren't gonna do crap to them with an interceptor fighter, and it was all on your bombers to get the job done. The scale on those massive cruisers compared to fighters, it was just something i've never seen done well again. I haven't gotten far in railjack but if it even gives me faint nostalgia of freespace 1/2, well, I'll be grateful.

Here, have some nostalgia. The game looks even better now - this was made 13 years ago.

 

[8faiNt]

It was either that or the whole railjack experience would be; park the railjack, get out, start shooting with archguns. This wont affect the normal archwing missions since the range is way shorter on those maps.

anyway

Spoiler

git gud

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by 8faiNt

[Skaleek]

5 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

this was made 13 years ago.

So good.

[Xzorn]

46 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

Here, have some nostalgia. The game looks even better now - this was made 13 years ago.

 

HAHA! Stabbing Westward. Of course. What else would it be.

[Klaleara]

7 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

 Hobbling the few half-way decent weapons in there on top of breaking melee auto-tracking just serves to remove what few reasons those of us who still played them have to bother.

I came to the forums looking for this specifically.  This sucks, this was one of the few fun things in Archwing, seeing my character dash between enemies.  It was a blast!  Now melee is damn near impossible, especially with slower weapons.  A miss is a huge issue now.

Please return melee auto-tracking :'(.  And give Itzel a passive that give you a small blink going from enemy to enemy while in a certain radius for melee!

[Fleuria]

14 hours ago, Voltage said:

Also, how does it make sense for a weapon to simultaneously be a projectile (that is also slow) in space while also being hitscan on land???

Range.

It's an approximation, but incredibly fast at short range does not mean travels instantaneously when the ranges are much, much greater.

Real life comparison: high speed bullets are slower than modern military aircraft.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Fleuria
fix typo

[Rookie808]

Just use Amesha and use your third ability. The archwing is the best imo when it comes to Away crew anyway. You can get energy back with your 4th and heal/protect with your 2 and take no damage with your first. What more do you want? 

[DoomFruit]

12 minutes ago, Rookie808 said:

Just use Amesha and use your third ability. The archwing is the best imo when it comes to Away crew anyway. You can get energy back with your 4th and heal/protect with your 2 and take no damage with your first. What more do you want? 

A reason to choose different weapons and archwings?

Me, I'm almost certainly still going to be using Itzal and the Gundam's beam rifle Velocitus. I'm used to leading my targets with that.

[Xzorn]

3 hours ago, Fleuria said:

Real life comparison: high speed bullets are slower than modern military aircraft.

 

"Bullets" but not ballistics.

At any rate Hit-scan is simply a game mechanic. IMO you either have it or don't have it in your game. Globally. Non of this cherry picking.

[Fleuria]

1 minute ago, Xzorn said:

"Bullets" but not ballistics.

???

[Xzorn]

7 minutes ago, Fleuria said:

???

 

US Navy has been using a prototype Railgun for a few years now in service. It exceeds Mach 7.

[Sdric]

[EDIT] Note that I'mm mainly referring to the hotfix damage nerf.

It's insane, before it was a little but much damage against the big ships - but fine for fighters. Now we've missions where you have to destroy 90 freaking fighter that can tnke a ****ton of bullets, do one dodge maneuver after another and can change direction 3 times before your bullets can reach them.

I enjoyed the new dogfights when they started even if it was busted that you'd get instakilled through 4 defensive mods, but now Archwing feels like the longest, most miserable game of catch of your life.

Archwing weapons should have stayed as it was, just increase the damage resistance on bigger ships against normal basic types.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Sdric

[Test-995]

Painful? it's more of the broken, fluctus and corvus got extremely slow velocity it can't even catch up enemies.

[Fleuria]

9 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

US Navy has been using a prototype Railgun for a few years now in service. It exceeds Mach 7.

Oh, I see.

Yes -- that's a worthwhile distinction. Thanks.

[Xzorn]

6 minutes ago, Fleuria said:

Oh, I see.

Yes -- that's a worthwhile distinction. Thanks.

 

Just felt the need to separate that. Esp when this is some future Sci-fi land so velocities far beyond out reason could exist in compact form. I mean we have guns that make Singularities. That Railgun is cool though isn't it? In the end I denounce logic and just claim Hit-scan is a game mechanic that needs to be balanced not goofed around with.

[Fleuria]

11 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Just felt the need to separate that. Esp when this is some future Sci-fi land so velocities far beyond out reason could exist in compact form. I mean we have guns that make Singularities. That Railgun is cool though isn't it? In the end I denounce logic and just claim Hit-scan is a game mechanic that needs to be balanced not goofed around with.

And, best of all, no recoil!!!

[Justin_Case001]

Nerfing hit scan arch guns in space is a gut punch.  It's horrible.  I feel like I'm trying to shoot enemies with a literal, ACTUAL Nerf gun.  Please revert.

[Danayam]

В 13.12.2019 в 14:40, Voltage сказал:

1) Arch-weapons are already underpowered. They are an underpowered weapon in one of the most underpopulated gamemodes.

lol, just use mod and polarize you weapon, i no have problem with my imperator vandal. perfect damage on any railjack mission

Edited December 14, 2019 by Danayam