Arch-Gun Hitscan Nerf is Painful

[QuinSilver]

On 2019-12-16 at 8:07 AM, 8faiNt said:

you know like they are a fighter ship, right? they are supposed to be faster than an archwing

And those fighter are much heavier and bulkier than archwings.
Also, archwings are powered buy tenno's jetfire, so they should be much faster.

[-JT-_-R3W1ND]

Lol, just have a perfect expirience today.

The enemy fighter was flying in the perfect straight line from me. I let the bursts go and what was my surprise when it hit the target. I had already forgotten that I was trying to shoot, but after 2-3 seconds the shells started hitting the target.

Playing this game without a point of aim is completely impossible.

[George_PPS]

On 2019-12-13 at 6:17 AM, Voltage said:

It's just astounding that DEs best effort to make Empyrean look good is by heavily nerfing Archwing.

The nerfing trend seems to be accelerating. Why is DE nerfing the weapons, fun factors and the fluidity of warframe NON-STOP? 

[DroopingPuppy]

4 hours ago, -JT-_-R3W1ND said:

Lol, just have a perfect expirience today.

The enemy fighter was flying in the perfect straight line from me. I let the bursts go and what was my surprise when it hit the target. I had already forgotten that I was trying to shoot, but after 2-3 seconds the shells started hitting the target.

Playing this game without a point of aim is completely impossible.

This is what we actually see in the real games right now. If the gun is usable we don't say like that.

[DoomFruit]

On 2019-12-16 at 10:11 AM, DrakeWurrum said:

I was hoping for Railjack to fix Archwings, but... objectively, it got worse. They are completely broken now, and worthless outside of traveling from point A to point B. And I'm one of the few people who is 100% fine with the changes to Blink and Itzal.

You actually like ripline? I cannot find a single use for it - what use have you found for it?

Also, back on topic, a huge problem caused by the projectile velocity nerf is that projectiles don't inherit the velocity of their launcher. It's a basic part of physics and is why a jet fighter doesn't run into its own bullets when trying to shoot another one down (or, in fact, is why it's even capable of hitting another fighter in the first place).

[DrakeWurrum]

8 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

You actually like ripline? I cannot find a single use for it - what use have you found for it?

Well I mean, have you SEEN how many asteroids there are in Railjack content? I also haven't tried this personally yet, but I bet it would help pull fighters in closer to you when they're trying to speed away.

I don't know how useful it is, but that seems to be the intended design, and it's range isn't nearly as pitiful as these salty forums led me to believe. To wit... Rip Line has a 300m range, but Cosmic Crush only has a 140m range.

[DoomFruit]

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Well I mean, have you SEEN how many asteroids there are in Railjack content? I also haven't tried this personally yet, but I bet it would help pull fighters in closer to you when they're trying to speed away.

Sure, there are plenty of asteroids. I've never once seen the need to pull myself to their surface. If I really need to do that, I can just blink - the collision damage is basically negligible. As for fighter pursuit, I again still have blink to close the large gap, and can slow them down pretty quickly with a few hits from my Phaedra.

[DrakeWurrum]

12 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

As for fighter pursuit, I again still have blink to close the large gap, and can slow them down pretty quickly with a few hits from my Phaedra.

Blink will often over-shoot. Phaedra with a cold proc is certainly one way to go, just saying Arch Line is an option, too. Same with the asteroids.

Just because you have other options, doesn't mean this option is useless. It's just a different option.

[DoomFruit]

10 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Blink will often over-shoot. Phaedra with a cold proc is certainly one way to go, just saying Arch Line is an option, too. Same with the asteroids.

Just because you have other options, doesn't mean this option is useless. It's just a different option.

True, but I prefer to use Odonata. Vacuum is nice, but I'm going to be spamming it a lot because the loot gets very widely distributed. Itzal's one form of survivability, cloaking, does absolutely nothing in railjack. The cruise ships still target me even while invisible. Odonata can at least take a couple of hits, and it has that lovely shield which is extremely useful when flying backwards and shooting at a cloud of fighters (this not only protects me, it keeps them going at me in a straight line - they are not only easier to hit, but they're exposed in that position for much longer because the relative velocity is less).

[Audbot]

I'd like to register a vote for "please please please don't revert archwing guns to hitscan, because they're so much more fun now." Like, they could probably use a projectile speed boost, but they're so much more fun to use now and leading targets genuinely feels like a more natural way to aim when you're zooming around in the air.

Ditto for archwings and fighters being on similar speed levels. The fact that Railjack dogfights were so immediately joyful pretty much confirmed what I'd suspected around classic archwing, which is that the lack of fun was mostly down to hitscan weapons and boring enemies that just kind of fly slowly towards you. Things are so much better now!

(That said, it is kind of hard to hit fighters with the Imperator from further than point-blank range, and since Railjack and Archwing share so many UI elements, it'd be nice if Gunnery 1 gave you aim indicators in Archwing mode, too. I actually feel really optimistic about Railjack-style space battles being a solid enough framework to make Archwing revisions worth doing, and possibly augment or replace the existing Archwing missions, and I'd love to see how that shakes out once the mode itself stabilizes a bit.)

[DroopingPuppy]

As long as archguns are made usable, I agree. The point is NOT making hitscan guns projectile. The point is, archguns are not able to hit the enemy at all in railjack right now, so revert to hitscan is not the only option. We just need it to be usable.

Edited December 18, 2019 by DroopingPuppy

[DrakeWurrum]

On 2019-12-18 at 1:50 AM, Audbot said:

I'd like to register a vote for "please please please don't revert archwing guns to hitscan, because they're so much more fun now." Like, they could probably use a projectile speed boost, but they're so much more fun to use now and leading targets genuinely feels like a more natural way to aim when you're zooming around in the air.

Ditto for archwings and fighters being on similar speed levels. The fact that Railjack dogfights were so immediately joyful pretty much confirmed what I'd suspected around classic archwing, which is that the lack of fun was mostly down to hitscan weapons and boring enemies that just kind of fly slowly towards you. Things are so much better now!

(That said, it is kind of hard to hit fighters with the Imperator from further than point-blank range, and since Railjack and Archwing share so many UI elements, it'd be nice if Gunnery 1 gave you aim indicators in Archwing mode, too. I actually feel really optimistic about Railjack-style space battles being a solid enough framework to make Archwing revisions worth doing, and possibly augment or replace the existing Archwing missions, and I'd love to see how that shakes out once the mode itself stabilizes a bit.)

Letting the projectile home in on a target it's shot towards would make it viable, if not realistic. I certainly wish I could see the little lead indicator in Archwing.

I've so far found that really only Velocitus and Imperator Vandal work for me. Phaedra would probably work, too, but I have to Forma it some to make it's build work for me.

Edited December 19, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[Azrael_V]

Fluctus is unusable. I started with Larkspur but ended up with Cyngas. I tried Corvas and I see DE has turned it into Arch-Arca Plasmor with low range. This was not in the update notes. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Azrael_V

[Ikusias]

I've noticed a big double standard here from DE:

- enemies get homing missiles in salvos that can be spammed infinitely, at Saturn elite fighters get homing missiles as well

- our archwing weapons get torn to shreds and archmelee is completely unusable

- archwing weapons got severely nerfed and lost hitscan but gained no leading indicator

- railjack weapons are always behind in term of damage compared to the tier of enemies they drop from: we have to change to better  weapons while getting increasingly worse time to kill?!

- railjack main gun is crap unless getting specific avionics and other investments

- railjack unless lucking out on avionics drops, is made of wet paper

- boosting and manouvering have a fragging cooldown!

[nslay]

OK, make weapons projectile! Fine, I'm game! But please have a look at Phaedra and similar then? How is that kind of spread reasonable for space fighter games with projectiles?

On paper, Phaedra looks like a status version of Imperator/Imperator Vandal. In practice? It's like lighting a box of fireworks off at an enemy and hoping some of them hit the enemy!

[Rasdan]

I've no problem with hitscan nerf. I just this changes was added with Archgun Projectile Speed mod in it to even the odds.

[Skaleek]

So after doing some testing, its clear that some weapons are in a great state *coughCyngascough*, and some are nigh unusable. The grattler, corvas, velocitus, kuva ayanga are all pretty much unusable garbage. The larkspur is hitscan (woop de doo) but it has such a small range you're basically meleeing with an energy whip. The phaedra and dual decurion are serviceable, but have a hard time dealing with some of the toughest enemies. Then we have imperator vandal, decent gun, the one i was using before i realized status stacking was so OP. Then we have the cyngas. Not hitscan, but easy enough to hit enemies, moreso when you pair it with amesha slow. With 100% status you will take down the toughest enemies (and crewships) in a few clips.

There's a big disparity here. If you're gonna make guns incredibly hard to hit with and painful to use, their damage better reward you for actually hitting. The grattler should be an aoe monster, it's a flak cannon, it should be shredding fighter wings. The Corvas should absolutely decimate anything it hits (it doesnt). The Ayanga is a grenade launcher is space so.... i dunno, that doesnt really strike me as a good space fighter weapon, but if you're shooting it at a slow moving crewship or bomber, it should hurt. The poor velocitus man. This is a railgun. This one is the sniper of archwing. DE, you've spent years working on making snipers viable, you know the pitfalls and the problems with them. And yet you repeat the same mistakes everytime. Velocitus needs some freakin love... bad.

[Ikusias]

Velocitus needs to be hitscan and a much netter damage / crit chance due to being also a charge weapon that doesn't benefit from rate of fire mods and needs instead another specific mod just to add insult to injury

[Corvid]

44 minutes ago, Ikusias said:

a charge weapon that doesn't benefit from rate of fire mods

Doesn't it charge faster with them though?

Anyway, I'll say no to hitscan, but yes to a prediction marker that actually gives me an idea of where to aim.

[Fleuria]

10 hours ago, Ikusias said:

I've noticed a big double standard here from DE:

- enemies get homing missiles in salvos that can be spammed infinitely, at Saturn elite fighters get homing missiles as well

- our archwing weapons get torn to shreds and archmelee is completely unusable

- archwing weapons got severely nerfed and lost hitscan but gained no leading indicator

- railjack weapons are always behind in term of damage compared to the tier of enemies they drop from: we have to change to better  weapons while getting increasingly worse time to kill?!

- railjack main gun is crap unless getting specific avionics and other investments

- railjack unless lucking out on avionics drops, is made of wet paper

- boosting and manouvering have a fragging cooldown!

Those grineer homing missiles are not actually all that great.

You can easily hijack a grineer ship and use them, though, if you like.

[Awazx]

Given how bad and suboptimal the Archwing weapons and Railjack weapons are, I understand that the Orokin was extinguished.

[DroopingPuppy]

1 hour ago, Fleuria said:

Those grineer homing missiles are not actually all that great.

You can easily hijack a grineer ship and use them, though, if you like.

It is good that much actually, for hijack the crewship is one of the most easy ways to dispatch those fighters. Also it is very deadly against archwings as well.

[Fleuria]

1 hour ago, DroopingPuppy said:

It is good that much actually, for hijack the crewship is one of the most easy ways to dispatch those fighters. Also it is very deadly against archwings as well.

I imagine this depends on which mission you are in. I do remember them being nice on some missions.

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

Being non-hitscan isn't the issue, it's that the projectiles are so slow. We're in space! No gravity and no atmosphere! There shouldn't even be any any damage fall-off. 

Edited December 20, 2019 by (XB1)Erudite Prime

[DerGreif2]

With the current power level of weapons and the fighter speed the combat really feels trashy.

In my personal opinion they should nerfed the health of the enemy ships by 30%, make all RJ guns hitscann and need the flight speed of the fighters also by 30%.

I know it should be challenging but when I have to stop playing gunner because I get almost sick when I track a target... They really have to do something about the combat so that RJ feels good. Right now I have the feeling I fire with feathers (MK3 still when you take all that in consideration).