Empyrean and the decline of Warframe

[X_96]

1 minute ago, (PS4)thecoolman575 said:

They keep rushing and delivering them super buggy.

I would like you to tell me why DE would want to rush new content.

[RX-3DR]

12 minutes ago, X_96 said:

The "Engineer" role is specifically made for this. There is a whole Intrinsics category for this.

You can't guarantee that there is going to be someone babysitting the ship, especially in public matches.

Just now, X_96 said:

A simple solution to this would be increasing the damage and firerate of enemy ships making it impossible to use archiwing, aswell as balancing out the damage output of the Railjack to be more effective against single fighters. Those are small things that can and will be changed at a later date. And in my honest opinion, it isn't that bad right now.

Archwings already struggle with enemies. The only reason why they're viable in the Veil is because the Amesha can shrug off attacks completely and the guns on the Railjacks are horrible. Buffing up enemies will just make everything except the Amesha completely unusable, eventually resulting in Archwing being nothing more than a transportation method, destroying the purpose of having Archwings be part of the game as they can be replaced with a loading screen by then.

The key problem is the Railjacks are too fragile to deal with groups of enemies, even with upgrades. Crewships will rip through them in seconds while are immune to all your attacks unless you have a Rank 5 Gunner supposedly. The Railjacks will need massive buffs all around to bring their risk reward into a sensible ratio. Until that happens, you can't blame people for picking them most practical option which is to leave it safely behind. There's simply barely any fun to be had unless you're in an organized group.

[X_96]

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

...So force people to play the game one way and only one way

No one needs to do that because it's already here. The players are excellent in that. There is a meta for everything,made by the players themselves not the Devs. Here, have the quote. "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game." -Soren Johnson

[X_96]

3 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

You can't guarantee that there is going to be someone babysitting the ship, especially in public matches.

This could be fixed with a pre-mission role-selection. I personally enjoy babysitting the Railjack and managing everything inside to prevent a mission failure.

[DeathDweller]

2 minutes ago, X_96 said:

You want to tell me that you don't have a choice to not rush through content in the most efficient way possible? "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game." -Soren Johnson

You are looking at the moral side of the matter, i'm talking about the technical one.It's DE's fault, they could test their game and find out that "you know what if we do that then the player can do this".Another example?Summer beach event.They released an event that the players could literally afk after 1 kill, a laughable flaw that any man that has ever touched a game would have realised and fixed first thing.And that took them 5 days and a few hundreds of people complaining to fix.

[X_96]

4 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

The key problem is the Railjacks are too fragile to deal with groups of enemies, even with upgrades.

I wouldn't say that. I have joined a few people soloing a veil mission within a Railjack. They somehow managed to use the guns provided to deal enough damage as well as having the ship not exploding every 5 seconds.

[Aldain]

Just now, X_96 said:

No one needs to do that because it's already here. The players are excellent in that. There is a meta for everything,made by the players themselves not the Devs. Here, have the quote. "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game." -Soren Johnson

I know that quote, trust me, I know it quite well.

But you started this thread saying "People don't play Warframe like it is intended to", I didn't know that you were a developer for DE who could say beyond any doubt what the "intended" way to play the game is.

Forcing playstyles and removing options wrong, no matter what idiotic meta players find, it is better to support as many as possible, especially in a co-op focused game, if a player optimizes the fun out of the game for them that is on that player alone, but I refuse to believe that because the meta chaser crowd exists everyone else should have to suffer asinine removals of options.

[X_96]

1 minute ago, DeathDweller said:

they could test their game and find out that "you know what if we do that then the player can do this".

Let me put it this way. "We made a car, we don't have a way to prevent you from driving into oncoming traffic yet." You chose how you want to play. If you decide to play in a way that you don't enjoy even if the means to do so are already there, it is your own fault.

[Test-995]

Yeah you are the problem.

[X_96]

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

But you started this thread saying "People don't play Warframe like it is intended to"

I'm sorry for that. I have phrased that wrong. I don't usually do discussions. Let me try this. "People don't play Warframe in a way they enjoy to" For me personally, the intend of every game should be to have fun or enjoy the time spend there.

[X_96]

1 minute ago, Test-995 said:

Yeah you are the problem.

Whatever makes you happy :)

[--DSP--Jetstream]

3 minutes ago, X_96 said:

Let me put it this way. "We made a car, we don't have a way to prevent you from driving into oncoming traffic yet." You chose how you want to play. If you decide to play in a way that you don't enjoy even if the means to do so are already there, it is your own fault.

Bad analogy..the car would not been released if its that broken and unfinished, and youre making it sound theyre using people as test subjects..

[nslay]

It's fun! But it's also nerve-wracking solo (even when you upgrade the ship)... Why anyone would try to complete this as fast as possible is beyond me. Especially with all the time spent gathering resources after the mission. I think I can only stomach one solo Railjack mission at a time every so many hours. Is this how it's intended to be played? Am I supposed to be freaked out by these missions because of how delicate Railjack and Archwing (less delicate than the upgraded Railjack!) are and how annoying it is to shoot down Railjack enemies that are immune to my Odonata/Repel ability? It's definitely fun and incredibly thrilling to the point of masochism.

[DeathDweller]

10 minutes ago, X_96 said:

Let me put it this way. "We made a car, we don't have a way to prevent you from driving into oncoming traffic yet." You chose how you want to play. If you decide to play in a way that you don't enjoy even if the means to do so are already there, it is your own fault.

Games don't work like that, thus they are called games.There's no game in the history of gaming that you can do whatever you want(aside glitches), some games are pretty linear and some others have the ilussion of choice which still is predetermined from the game designer.The problem here is that DE doesn't predict what the players can or can't do because they simply have the players for testers.If they want an update to last they must make sure that people can't rush it not by setting moral rules but as to implement in-game restrictions(and not simply stretch the content and raise a wall)

Edited December 16, 2019 by DeathDweller

[X_96]

1 minute ago, --DSP--Jetstream said:

the car would not been released if its that broken and unfinished

You want to tell me that there is no car out there that would allow me to drive into oncoming traffic? My point is, there are tools provided to you, they way you use them is up to you. But don't complain if the way you use them is not what you expected it to be.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, X_96 said:

Let me try this. "People don't play Warframe in a way they enjoy to" For me personally, the intend of every game should be to have fun or enjoy the time spend there.

I play Warframe in a way I enjoy to, I use an Excalibur Umbra with sub-par builds in 90% of missions I play, there is no way to say 100% who is enjoying the game or grinding for the sake of grinding.

We don't know the intent of the game, and the intent of the game shouldn't have to fight players who aren't having fun with it at the cost of those who are, that is why option removal isn't good. People have fun in multiple ways, some might literally enjoy running E Prime 20 times a day even though it gives them no reward at all, another might grind vault relics all day to make plat they may never spend because they enjoy playing the market.

What makes Warframe great is the wide number of options that players have to enjoy it, players who aren't enjoying the game shouldn't cause issues for those who are, nor should people who are enjoying the game attempt to quash feedback of those who dislike certain aspects of certain systems. 

Like how I hate the Lich mercy cutscene death to the point of not wanting to bother with the system at all, if others enjoy it that is fine, but I'll give my feedback in hopes we can find a common solution that makes everyone happy rather than just assuming there is only one true form of enjoyment.

There is no single truth to enjoyment in gaming, from speedrunners to hundred-percent playthroughs, from hardcore to casual, not a single one is greater than the others, nor should any of them be removed solely for the sake of another.

[X_96]

15 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Forcing playstyles and removing options wrong

It's not only not wrong, it's how most games are made. From auto failing a stealth section to preventing you from going a certain direction, player choices are always limited to fit a intended playstyle.

[Magnus]

This is the most rushed, least complete update to have ever been released since Kuva Liches, which before that, was the previous update. It's a serious race to the bottom.

[Aldain]

11 minutes ago, X_96 said:

It's not only not wrong, it's how most games are made.

Not this one, not all games either, and as long as a single game even exists where there are more than one approach to completing a goal it will not be universally correct to remove options.

Forcing playstyles and removing options is wrong when they already exist and have for years.

Metal Gear Solid 5, you have multiple options to take out bases, you can choke-hold every guard one by one, level the place with C-4 or anything in between, even when you need to be stealthy or else fail the mission you can sneak with no combat at all or tranq every enemy on your way to a goal.

Sniper Ghost Warrior, the title literally explains the 3 options a player has to play it. The Borderlands series, you can use whatever you pick up to fight no matter the stats or weapon type.

Warframe was not built on a single gun, a single frame, and a single unified playstyle, even at launch it had 4 frames and a few weapons, was there a meta? Probably, but even back then the options existed.

You're taking the limitation of options to an absurd extreme, yes, in none of the games I have listed can you just sell tacos instead of fight enemies, but that isn't even tangentially related to a goal in the game, here Archwing in Empyrean serves as an option for dealing with enemies without the Railjack and removing that just to force a focus on the Railjack is ridiculous, it would be better for both if they actually made BOTH a viable option rather than shoot one dead and say "This is the only way forward".

Edited December 16, 2019 by Aldain

[latetier]

Brother man, or sister lady,

I've been playing Warframe since 2012.

I have 3593 hours play time for Warframe on steam.

There is no wrong way to play this game.

You are making very broad blanket statements that are entirely false when viewed objectively.

You, personally, might think people who are rushing are not having fun, but did you ever consider that that is their way of having fun?

Again, there is no wrong way to play Warframe.

Everyone plays it differently and enjoys it in different ways.

Making assumptions like you are doing, and then telling people to leave the game if they don't agree with your way of thinking is just toxic. Please stop. Thank you.

Edited December 16, 2019 by latetier

[Mikaer88]

2 hours ago, X_96 said:

Maybe it's time to stop playing. Or maybe look for another game you can finish in a week.

Yes, let's encourage players to spend their money elsewhere.

[X_96]

11 minutes ago, Aldain said:

What makes Warframe great is the wide number of options that players have to enjoy it, players who aren't enjoying the game shouldn't cause issues for those who are, nor should people who are enjoying the game attempt to quash feedback of those who dislike certain aspects of certain systems.

I 100% agree with you on that. None the less, it is an issue we have. There are people that want grind as efficiently as possible and are affecting the game in a negative way. From forcing players to either play a certain style to forcing the Devs to rush new content. The loader they scream, the more impact they have.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, X_96 said:

There are people that want grind as efficiently as possible and are affecting the game in a negative way. From forcing players to either play a certain style to forcing the Devs to rush new content. The loader they scream, the more impact they have.

Not even once have I been forced to do anything I didn't want to in Warframe, I haven't needed to grind faster, I haven't been told to exclusively play one Warframe, and I haven't had any of my time in Warframe ruined by another person's feedback.

Not all feedback is good, but it isn't on us to silence bad feedback, we aren't DE, we aren't forum moderators, we do not decide what good and bad feedback is.

That quote above "Maybe it is time to stop playing. Or maybe look for another game you can finish in a week" is just that, an attempt to silence all feedback because of the existence of bad feedback, an attempt to drive off anyone who dissents for the sake of those who don't. That isn't right, in any circumstance.

The wrong of bad feedback isn't going to be stopped by the wrong of silencing feedback indiscriminately, it just makes more anger, more rage, and more division in the playerbase, and in real life.

[X_96]

6 minutes ago, latetier said:

Everyone plays it differently and enjoys it in different ways.

Making assumptions like you are doing, and then telling people to leave the game if they don't agree with your way of thinking is just toxic.

I'm not saying you are not allowed to play a game in a way you want to. The problem are the people that rush through it and start complaining that there is no content.

I'm not making assumptions, I'm observing. Within the first 3 days of the update being out people where already talking about it lasting 2 weeks at most. While yes, if you are rushing the whole update in 2 weeks there won't be any content left for you but others might still be enjoying it.

I might have started this to rant about people doing exactly that.

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

This is how all the content releases work.  Get new content, people grind the everliving hell out of it until it is complete in their eyes, then they complain about lack of content because they finished everything.  That cycle has been repeating for years.  Can't really change those people at all though as evidenced by these forums where people will always complain about the flavor of the month thing whether it's a speculative saryn nerf, NW, old blood, or empyrean.