Empyrean and the decline of Warframe

[Diavoros]

So, apparently after the whole Lich update, DE got a taste for making equipment have randomized stats, to justify and force players to grind for the same piece with better stats in them. Lich weapons could only be manipulated in the element they would have, but not the type of weapon, or the % of the element in them, even their base stats have a -/+ random margin.
Now, the Reactor/Shield Array/Engines that players get from wreckage also have random stats, not all of them, but the most relevant ones for each part. When you take in consideration the outrageous repair costs for each part, even more for MKII and MKIII variants that scream BUY A RUSH DRONE, it is rather disheartening that there is a very high chance that the piece you repaired, whether by spending the large number of resources or the 50 platinum consumable, might not be the best and you will end getting a part with better stats of the same type.
Avionics are also in the same situation, although their upgrade costs doesn't hurt as much when you get duplicates with a higher rank/stats.

[KlimTit]

12 hours ago, Libpea said:

I liked the game very much, enjoyed the game very much, until now. Why? Because you gave out good ideas at first, but destroyed them later on just to keep players playing and try the make them "forget" all about the bad sides... but in fact, it just makes them quit.

The idea of keeping people playing is the EXPERIENCE and the experience needs time, and the playing time makes it worthwhile.

First, it was the ephemeras (and many other things before this first thing mentioned here). They were said to be the symbol of experience, no trading, no buying, and players need to earn them through time and experience, and at the beginning they needed a lot of resources to craft. And now, they are nothing but cheap cosmetics, became tradeable because of the lich system is so bad that it needs some "incentivize" to keep people playing.

And now, the umbral forma has become the next in line to be ruined. It was a good thing when it came out, an exclusive reward of nightwave and it was precious because players had to do multitude of tasks in over 2 months to get 1 of it. But now, it is a random reward from railjack mission hiding behind the door named RNG, players can never get it or get it in just a few minutes. And the crafting requirement is TOO cheap that it makes all the 3 previous umbral formas from doing nightwave are just a JOKE. And all for the sake of: HEY, UMBRAL FORMA IS IN RAILJACK, LETS PLAY IT AND IGNORE ALL THE BAD SIDES OF IT. Im not against making other ways to achieve umbral forma, but this way, it;s so UNTHINKABLE. Why not making another kind of forma like EXILUS FORMA or UNIVERSAL FORMA that can be used for all mod polarities.

A good game is a good balance of THE ADDING POINT SYSTEM combined with RNG system, and never destroy the premise of the playing system as the game progresses. But warframe seems not to have this foundation.

Things that are worthwhile in game are becoming cheap overtime, and the time invested is wasted as the game changes. The things you felt you earned from playing gradually grows into trash, then what is the point of playing... I am uninstalling right now. Thanks for the good game, it has been my good friend for 2 years.

 

Im not sure why people think RNG is a bad thing in a looter shooter lmao. If you got everything right away there wouldnt be a big reason to keep playing the game, thats what people like about looter shooters but when it comes to warframe most of the community hates it even though thats half of what a looter shooter is. 

[Corvid]

Pretty sure the Avionics have fixed stats, they just vary based on which house made them.

[Berserkerkitten]

I hate playing the devil's avocado and I usually hate too many layers of RNG, but I actually kinda like it in Railjack. I've got a full set of MK3 stuff on my ship, but I keep playing, because there's always a chance I'll loot something with better stats than what I've currently got. And since Railjack only has a handful of nodes right now, it gives me at least some replay value until they add more content to the system.

[wargthewarg]

I knew DE would soon find a way to devalue the reason some people decided to grind out this current Intermission. Going through duplicate recycled rewards from previous seasons just to get one umbra forma and then it gets released as a random drop. FeelsBadMan

The other thing is that now that they've released umbra forma as something farmable, how are they going to keep us wanting to grind Nightwave?

 

[Mephane]

34 minutes ago, Berserkerkitten said:

I hate playing the devil's avocado and I usually hate too many layers of RNG, but I actually kinda like it in Railjack. I've got a full set of MK3 stuff on my ship, but I keep playing, because there's always a chance I'll loot something with better stats than what I've currently got. And since Railjack only has a handful of nodes right now, it gives me at least some replay value until they add more content to the system.

Well, this is all fine and well except for the part where it cost tons of resources to make dropped loot usable in the first place. You can't have it both ways and expect the players to just accept it - either stats are random and it is supposed to be a grind for better items, or it is supposed to have fixed stats and it is a grind for materials, blueprints etc. Warframe has always been the latter, so pushing it in the direction of the former clashes hard with the fundamental reality of this game.

[Berserkerkitten]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Mephane:

Well, this is all fine and well except for the part where it cost tons of resources to make dropped loot usable in the first place. You can't have it both ways and expect the players to just accept it - either stats are random and it is supposed to be a grind for better items, or it is supposed to have fixed stats and it is a grind for materials, blueprints etc. Warframe has always been the latter, so pushing it in the direction of the former clashes hard with the fundamental reality of this game.

I don't really mind that part, because I can see the stats before I decide whether or not I want to repair something. I'd be against it if I had to repair the item first and only then can I see the stats. But I can see them on the wreckage, so I don't have to waste any resources on inferior loot.

[trst]

You may want to bring this topic up with every other game remotely in the same genre as Warframe. Until we started getting these effects from Rivens we were one of the few, if only, ones without such mechanics. This "bad practice" seems to be effective in every other instance of it.

 

Also considering the games history and continued trend of people dumping the game the moment they've gotten the new rewards from an update it's clear that loot is all a lot of people care about. Thus the only way to actually keep these people engaged is to give them a reason to continue to grind and play. Plus the system in general is something that some people do enjoy and have wanted for some time now.

You may not like it but the only thing making you fret over making your previous parts obsolete is yourself. And if you're so desperate for getting new parts that you can't be bothered to get the materials to manually craft them it's also solely on you. And, as was painfully apparent with the Railjack construction itself, if the rush drones didn't exist then we'd have other people complaining that they don't have a pay to skip option.

Edited December 17, 2019 by trst

[ValinorAtani]

vor 47 Minuten schrieb wargthewarg:

The other thing is that now that they've released umbra forma as something farmable, how are they going to keep us wanting to grind Nightwave?

Wait for it getting a bundle of 3 at Level 30 😄

[NuclearToast451]

I've given up on Empyrean. The cluster-plook of all the repairs is not fun, especially since most pubbies seem to want only to pilot and launch off the railjack in their archwings. Fighting boarders is fun, but the constant repairs with boarders while trying to forge supplies is not. There are just too many fires and hull breaches. I'll play the older content, thank you.

[Paradoxity]

On 2019-12-16 at 11:34 AM, (PS4)thegarada said:

Honestly, the lore is mostly unclear on this, but obviously the game allows us instant travel. That is for convince not meant to be taken for scale.

As for Tau colonization. It is not clear what Tau is. Lotus calls it Bleak Star. I would guess it is a brown dwarf around a light year or so from the sun. Balas calls it a distant world. We also dunno the time span of the colonization and the old war. We know it ended ~1,000 years ago. And the sentienals did not attempt another attack (until the new war, which is coming), which is a clear indication that distance is a big factor. Also, Balas tells Umbra he had lifetimes to plan his defection. Presumably this all happened after Margulas died. All indication that the old war (and the Tau colonization before it), took a very long time. Hundreds of years, if not +1,000 years.

I agree with you, thinking about WF lore (in a scientific means anyway) does not hold to scrutiny. DE though is going mostly for stellar universe and not an inter-stellar one. Kinda indicates technologically we are mostly bound to the solar system.

 

Oh, it's not just 'don't look at the lore scientifically'- funnily enough, The game's setting is constructed in such a way that we don't know hardly anything about how it  works. Physics still... sorta applies? But the void throws a lot of what we know right out the window and replaces it with the glory of chaos. 

But I mean, like... like how the grineer queens kvetch about having to use clone bodies when they've got a whole empire that I'm pretty sure could scare up a couple six colonists for continuity or w/e. Stuff like that. 

We can assume (At least, right now) that the Orokin empire never got out of the solar system (And, by extension, the successor forces never did either). But we don't know if that's because their FTL is gate based (The solar rails) or if it's because they don't have appreciable FTL. I'm leaning towards them having it in the form of the solar rails, but  that system is either limited enough that it only works on a 'small' scale- it can't bridge the interstellar gap- or because the Tau system never had a rail node established by the sentients.

Being a writer myself, I strongly suspect DE is being guilty of one of my own personal flaws- making it up as it  comes and then working backwards to piece it  all together. Works great till you start contradicting yourself! 

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Paradoxity said:

Being a writer myself, I strongly suspect DE is being guilty of one of my own personal flaws- making it up as it  comes and then working backwards to piece it  all together. Works great till you start contradicting yourself! 

Ah yes, the "Writing by the seat of your pants" method, it can create very interesting things and plots due to spontaneous ideas, but always suffers the problem of "Oh crud I forgot about that, retrofit RETROFIT!".

Not gonna lie, even when things might have plot holes due to this it is always fun to see what reasons for retroactive changes are, and if they make sense or not.

Of course I tend to follow the mantra of "Don't think about it too hard" when reading anything so it takes some Sharknado levels of absurdity to make me question "seat of your pants" plotholes.

[Mr.Serio]

I completely agree with your opinion, for my part if I tried empirio and I must say that it was a total disappointment. I go to the third planet (last one also) and as I played the bug flourished, either being immortal with the warframe going through graphics, leaving the map and not being able to interact with anything or black screen for taking out the operator, getting locked in the ships manned grenier that you invade, etc.
On the other hand the monetization is horrible, everything new they added is a problem that is solved by paying pl, this I mention because of the absurd amount of materials you need, to the point that it is easier to go to search for prime parts to take out pl, which Search the resources you need to repair the various parts you find for the railjack.
The intrinsic system is a lousy addition, because those who do not have railjack cannot raise their intrinsic points that they get in the missions, so that "it is something that only one has his railjack so that others can enjoy the same experience without problems "It's a blatant hoax, because without intrinsic you don't have access to all the tools you need to be useful in the squad.
I understand that we are beta of all new content, but there is a limit, example: if a teacher tells me "next week we meet and I review what they have advanced in their work, do not worry will not be evaluated", and When the day arrives I only have the cover finished, it is obvious that there will be a negative reaction, here it is exactly the same, although we are not paying for the game and they are not obliged to upload everything ready immediately, they cannot come and deliver something that is not even the cover of what they presented before.

And it is better not to mention the zero creativity in the missions they implemented.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Mr.Serio

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

3 hours ago, Corvid said:

Pretty sure the Avionics have fixed stats, they just vary based on which house made them.

No, every avionic has random stats on it.

[NoblePhantasm]

2% droprate from bonus reward and RNG stats...got the low end of it.  *Alot of swearing*

Edited December 17, 2019 by NoblePhantasm

[(PSN)robotwars7]

DE: "we want to make the Grind easier"

also DE: "GRIND YOU FOOLS! play more railjack! MORE you want those god-tier stats don't you!?"

[Leyers_of_facade]

2 minutes ago, NoblePhantasm said:

2% droprate from bonus reward and RNG stats *Alot of swearing*

OOF, my mk2 reactor gives more capacity than that =.=

[Gabbynaru]

Frankly, I'd accept the RNG stats attached to Railjack stuff if the repair costs weren't so freakin' ridiculous. Cut a zero, DE! Don't follow Anthem's example on how to (not) do fun loot.

[Loza03]

Just now, Gabbynaru said:

Frankly, I'd accept the RNG stats attached to Railjack stuff if the repair costs weren't so freakin' ridiculous. Cut a zero, DE! Don't follow Anthem's example on how to (not) do fun loot.

This.

Either have RNG you can quickly parse through, or have powerful items with a prohibitive cost. Both is excessive.

21 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

No, every avionic has random stats on it.

Then why do all my Lavar Anode Batteries have the same shield bonus and stack together, but my Vidar one is kept separate?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

5 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Frankly, I'd accept the RNG stats attached to Railjack stuff if the repair costs weren't so freakin' ridiculous. Cut a zero, DE! Don't follow Anthem's example on how to (not) do fun loot.

DE: But...but...rivens make money, so why  not capitalize on that and turn every game system into a version of riven mods?

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

4 hours ago, Diavoros said:

So, apparently after the whole Lich update, DE got a taste for making equipment have randomized stats, to justify and force players to grind for the same piece with better stats in them. Lich weapons could only be manipulated in the element they would have, but not the type of weapon, or the % of the element in them, even their base stats have a -/+ random margin.
Now, the Reactor/Shield Array/Engines that players get from wreckage also have random stats, not all of them, but the most relevant ones for each part. When you take in consideration the outrageous repair costs for each part, even more for MKII and MKIII variants that scream BUY A RUSH DRONE, it is rather disheartening that there is a very high chance that the piece you repaired, whether by spending the large number of resources or the 50 platinum consumable, might not be the best and you will end getting a part with better stats of the same type.
Avionics are also in the same situation, although their upgrade costs doesn't hurt as much when you get duplicates with a higher rank/stats.

I really hate the idea in general. I hated it enough on rivens but at least you could roll rivens a good couple times an hour. 

[SneakyErvin]

This "bad" practice is in most games. WF has just been without it for a long time, which has also taken away a large part of the looter shooter or arpg feeling. Now that feeling is there and I personally love it.

The costs are a wee bit steep for specific materials *cough*titanium*cough* and could use an adjustment. I'd say cut titanium costs is half and maybe slightly lower the cost of certain other rare mats on individual items. That would be more than enough.

edit: Also, avionics doesnt have random stats. What differentiates one avionic of a type from another is if it belongs to a house or not. For instance, the heat pool increasing avionic can come as a Zakti version. It gives less per rank than the normal one, but can be upgraded more times for a higher max benefit, but it also costs alot more unranked than the normal version so will have a far higher capacity cost.

Edited December 17, 2019 by SneakyErvin

[Gabbynaru]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

DE: But...but...rivens make money, so why  not capitalize on that and turn every game system into a version of riven mods?

Firetruck rivens.

[nslay]

Diablo 1 and 2 were/are pretty popular and have way worse stat randomization. Diablo 3 has worse stat randomization too.

I do find it odd that Warframe is randomizing stats now. Their mod system solved a lot of annoyances with Diablo-style weapons/gear. Instead of grinding for a good roll of the same weapon many times, you could just grind for mods and just 1 template of a weapon and adjust the stats how you like them. That's very nice!

That said, once you find all the essential mods. Then it's mostly game over from a loot perspective. I mean, just build any weapon and mod it however you want and voila, done. No replay value. You can use your perfectly modded weapon until you get bored. So I guess DE decided it should add just a teeny bit of RNG to weapons and mod stats so you have to keep grinding. This is completely fine so long as the stat ranges do not completely make or break your gear! So if it's like +/-10% on Avionics mods, that's probably fine.

EDIT: OK, well I forgot Rivens. Rivens are an abomination of stat randomization and should be smarter about how they roll. They are even way worse than Diablo 3 vanilla item stats (e.g. strength on a Wand? Intelligence on a Bow?)!

Edited December 17, 2019 by nslay

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

This "bad" practice is in most games. WF has just been without it for a long time, which has also taken away a large part of the looter shooter or arpg feeling. Now that feeling is there and I personally love it.

There’s a reason Activision and EA tried to catch up to Warframe with Destiny and Anthem. There’s also a reason why Warframe has been praised as the best out of the 3. DE has never resorted to scummy crap like this. And there’s no reason for them to sink to EAs and Activisions level. Warframe worked because it was fair while also being F2p. They’re losing that fairness.