Empyrean and the decline of Warframe

[Tellakey]

Remember, friends, remember this, a couple of years down the road, when every other item in Warframe has become randomized, as the update DE began its decline. All those claiming this to be just fine, I hope you won't come to regret this.

[Lost_Cartographer]

You can either have good items be a long and arduous grind or very rare drop, or you can have a lot of items to sift through, with many of them being junk, many others passable, and the occasional gem worth keeping for a while.  With the latter method, you might get something god-tier right away.  You might end up with nothing but junk for a while.  At least we've got clan research to fill the gaps and standardize our equipment.

Either way, the people complaining about "grind" are the people that get their new toy then ask "what do I do now."  ...And that question is precisely what DE is trying to avoid.  If the only reason people even log in is to chase the carrot, like hell the developer wants them to catch it.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Lost_Cartographer

[BRZZAFK]

Maybe players should stop spending thousands plat on riven. Otherwise DE will keep reciving mixed message.

Edited December 18, 2019 by BRZZAFK

[Xymos]

Warframe had mods dropping constantly before, good old days.

[Megalomaniakaal]

On the one hand players demand for more granular releases, on the other they want complete and polished releases. Almost sounds like they should open up the beta program for all and make the granular releases for testing there so those of us who are willing to test and want new stuff more often can have it there...

 

[Awazx]

il y a 40 minutes, Megalomaniakaal a dit :

On the one hand players demand for more granular releases, on the other they want complete and polished releases. 

The content of the post is not about this.

[SenorClipClop]

15 hours ago, Diavoros said:

force players to grind for the same piece with better stats

You are going to succeed in the mission whether your Cryophon deals 12k damage or 14k damage. Optimal stats are just gravy, and if anything is forcing you to grind for them, it's yourself.

[dirtysmile]

8 minutes ago, Awazx said:

The content of the post is not about this.

This thread has reached the point where the content of the original post does not matter

[Awazx]

il y a 1 minute, dirtysmile a dit :

This thread has reached the point where the content of the original post does not matter

On the contrary, the content is related to the title and the first publication. You can make that matter and you are welcome.

[Birk.Borkason]

I have my railjack, but have only taken a short look at the first mission.

Extinguishing fires is as exciting to me as hunting pobbers, fishing and drilling.

It is zero exciting. I love the main game, absolutely, don´t get me wrong, but I cannot imagine people to like this.

[xBloodySin]

Just now, Birk.Borkason said:

I have my railjack, but have only taken a short look at the first mission.

Extinguishing fires is as exciting to me as hunting pobbers, fishing and drilling.

It is zero exciting. I love the main game, absolutely, don´t get me wrong, but I cannot imagine people to like this.

They do. It's essentially playing a healer IN SPACE. I worked on Engineering first and I love the fact I can craft more stuff and faster, and the teleporting around the ship to keep it in shape and fend off invaders. It's way more exciting than doing the exact same thing you do in the rest of the whole game, even more so with not top-shelf Jacks that don't get damage too often.

[Zebiko]

I'm just disappointed that railjack doesn't have living quarters, and other interesting rooms. So much artistic potential squandered on a light/small frigate ship. 

[Libpea]

17 hours ago, KlimTit said:

Im not sure why people think RNG is a bad thing in a looter shooter lmao. If you got everything right away there wouldnt be a big reason to keep playing the game, thats what people like about looter shooters but when it comes to warframe most of the community hates it even though thats half of what a looter shooter is. 

It;s not what i meant, RNG is an important part of gaming, but it;s about how to use RNG. If you get everything right away then there is nothing to do, that;s why people often complain about content drought, then complain about RNG. So that;s why DE made lich system with RNG inside RNG, yeah, that;s worse.

[Libpea]

On 2019-12-17 at 5:03 PM, VanFanel1980mx said:

You are the reason we will never get a reduction on the Hema research cost.

What you said is not the same thing with me, really. Hema research is ridiculous, I have been playing for nearly 2 years and only got about 1500 sample for that research.

what i were saying is that DE made things with good premise, then made them cheap or tradeable later on to incentivize people to play things. And i wont argue if u like to buy all things with plat, if that;s ur playstyle.

[Libpea]

On 2019-12-17 at 12:42 PM, dirtysmile said:

Is making the umbral forma more accessible to players a bad thing? Does this hurt anything other than your inflated ego? This game has been my good friend for many years and will continue to be, despite some annoyances.

I think I made myself clear in my post: "Im not against making other ways to achieve umbral forma", but not this way. Umbral thing is a part of the new war, so far, this railjack only concerns grineer, nothing related to sentient, so the reward is a thing to make people play rather than the gamemode is a good experience itself. Guess u didnt see the point i was making.

Ego is the logic mind, logic mind creates opinions and ideas, which then become believes which then create experience. Yeah, in a sense, the way umbral forma is introduced in this railjack contradicts with my opinions, so it can be said it hurts my ego. I accept that. And you should know too, because you replied to my post that way, my opinions already contradicted your opinions, then they already hurts your inflated ego. So, next time, talk out your opinions, because when you judge other's inflated ego, you are in ur inflated ego too, be conscious about that.

[Xefonis]

Oh God, this topic hurts. And I thought that one of Warframe's strong point was its community. Never thought the forums would differ so much from the main experience.

Oh well, gotta balance this a little bit.

Le 13/12/2019 à 23:30, Awazx a dit :

What is Empyrean? It is Archwing 2.0. Nothing else. Did Archwing accept at the time? No, because this is Warframe. However, DE continues in its attempt to continue adding micro-games and game systems parallel to the main core (that Warframe-based core that made me fall in love with the game in 2014) and that does not contribute anything nor enrich the central experience of the game.

 

Who the hell enjoys playing the same exact limited "main core" ad nauseam for 5 years ? You can't expect the average player to still find fun in repeating the exact same actions all the time, and there is practically no point in extanding environments and such if they are just going to be some mission redesigns that play the exact same way. You saif it yourself, "that Warframe-based core that made me fall in love with the game in 2014": a gameplay core made with limited budget, that was a stupidly small fraction of the game envisionned, and that was only deemed the most vital part of the project. This game takes place in fraking space not because "space ninjas", but because it was fully intended from the start to offer everything a space opera game could offer, including flying ships and moving around in every way imaginable. And I tremendously enjoy this diversity and the freedom of movement that comes with Empyrean (flying with ships, with archwings, and infiltrating ennemy bases on foot like for every other mission). 

Except, you know, Archwings got a big bad nerf in terms of fun (no 360° rotation, boost nerfed, no viable figures...). I wanted to protest at this, but I encountered this topic on the way, and given the bashing of everything fun I kinda start to understand the issue.

So yeah, parallel systems. That play differently, offer diversity, without depriving you of the 90% of running and shooting that you enjoy.

Le 13/12/2019 à 23:30, Awazx a dit :

DE, you have spent 2 years of development at Empyrean. You could have spent that time creating a whole new solar system, with new planets, enemies and mysteries to discover. You could have improved and redesigned all the game systems that you have in the habit of leaving to action after its launch, from the syndicates to the focus system. You could have improved all the missions of the solar system and get it to play something other than defense and survival.

You complain that Empyrean "does not contribute anything nor enrich the central experience of the game". You say yourself that you've enjoyed this diminished gameplay for five years, what the hell can they do to improve it without breaking it ? They can't, any improvement you're asking for the core system would in the end still be considered a treason, and you can only go that far with adding small layers of gameplay and progression without growing stagnant and driving the playerbase away (jeez, new syndicates to grind are FUN).

I don't even understand your point about a new solar system. Are we even playing the same game ? The one centered on humanity's fall and playing with the uncanney feeling of exploring a solar system that is so familiar and different at the same time ? Yet you're asking not for new ways to explore this system like Empyrean is doing, this very world you say you've grown attached to, but a whole new unrelated planetary system that would play exactly the same ? What's going on with gaming communities everywhere spitting in the face of devs with any vision for instead asking more of the same stuff they've been given for years ?

Also, there are other modes than defense and survival already. Not gonna lie, I could go with an improvement of stealth and missions that could really go in this direction, but given the insults I sometimes receive when I'm slightly behind... Yeah. The community would hardly allow it.

Le 13/12/2019 à 23:30, Awazx a dit :

What do I have in place? The possibility of piloting a ship in an “open space” for 4 players, extinguishing fires and necessarily using my (forgotten) Archwing. Again, more grinding, more RNG, more new resources, more things disconnected from the true Warframe universe. For my part, I am not going to play Empyrean and I am not going to build my Railjack.

What's crazy is, this pragraph's first sentence sounds absolutely awesome. A bit less when I think about how clunky the Archwing's gameplay has become (please someone explain this). But still, we're talking about using a whole ship to preserve the integrity of the whole team, micro-managing ressources, to be aware at all time of everyone's move to ensure that everything is going smoothly, in short, using our actual brains for once, all with big chunks of the gameplay we still know and love. The progression system as it is is indeed a bit too disconnected from the "main experience", but the way all of those gameplays will connect to create a truly living, immersive and interconnected game are supposed to come in later updates.

The other crazy thing is that "more grinding, more RNG, more new resources, more things" is exactly what you would have gotten with the new slightly altered planetary system you seem to want, and such a system would be more disconnected from "the true Warframe universe" than anything Empyrean is doing. Empyrean is exploring new bits of the Orokin system in the only way left, there is nothing closer to the Warframe universe than going in these places we've seen but were never able to approach, all while slowly connecting together the players' game experiences.

 

I stumbled upon this article when I was looking for info about Empyrean. It was really interesting: https://www.pcgamer.com/15-years-later-warframe-is-finally-close-to-realizing-its-original-vision/

One quote by Steve Sinclair is striking: " I have this fear that it's not enough for our audience. I don't want to let them down—that's the biggest thing."

Well, apparently his fears were founded: this wasn't enough. Instead he should have done what the community wanted, more copy-pasted "content" to be experienced in the same way and bringing absolutely nothing new in therm of game experience. But hey, I'm glad he was wrong. After all, if he was listening to such comments, I would've given up a long time ago on the staling borefest that Warframe would have thus been.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ValinorAtani]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Xefonis:

Wall of Text (didnt wanted to bloat the Forum further). So replying to all of it.

 

 

 

 

First of all persons/players or how you would call them have a right to share their opinions/arguments even if you won’t agree with them (not exactly to your post, more to those who complains about complaining). Thank god we aren’t in China or any other dictatorship where it would be problematic to share your opinions freely.

So for me I’m more interested to see why those people are complaining or criticizing etc. I dont have to share the same opinion just for seeing other side of the medallion. Maybe it develops a mature and civil discussion which could improve something or not (yeah I know its naive in these days) 

From my point of view DE has the problem right now, does their current playerbase (I know, not everyone uses the forum ) is still matching their vision of Warframe provided 6 years ago? Or are those only a minority of players who would like to see their vision gets reality? What if the majority are solo players and don’t want to be forced into pugs, coop play (put here anything else inside which is new to Warframe) and have fun with the stale mission design of slashing enemies into pieces with a story quest here and there?

I guess that’s the main reason why Empyrean gets to much critic besides the already known poor updates on a technical side which are well known and gotten even worse with the last update (at least for me, 2 out 3 missions I couldn’t completed due to technical issues, third pilot was literally brain afk and drove us directly to hell, so I wont mind still its fixed or ironed out)

[Xefonis]

To be fair, I also see their point. It... kind of makes me overly bitter and I don't hide it well enough, but I see more or less what they mean.

But what frustrates me is the paradoxical stand they take. They play a game that they've been enjoying in an, honestly, kind of amazing way. I don't think I could remain faithful like that to an online coop game for five years if all I had was the same core experience. So, somehow, they are fine playing with the elements that were present since day one, and additional gameplay feels more like a forgettable bonus. Which also means that any change to this core experience present from the beginning is risking losing those players since nothing else seems to retain their attention.

 

From this situation, there are three options for the devs. The first one is to add "layers", basic extensions of this core concept (new environments, new ennemies, new weapons, etc). Admittedly, Warframe has been a bit slow at adding such bits compared to other games, but given how solid the core experience is, the whole thing would always remain extremely satisfying. And if designing a whole new map or ennemy needs enormous funds for a very minor change of the game (one boss would be fought during 0,0001% of the time spent playing VS 0,1% for some vehicles), it could be argued as a questionable choice.

The second is to add mechanical layers (liches), but as we've seen, they can be easily considered a nuisance (too much or too little RNG or such debates) as soon as they enter the core experience. For those veteran players, any mechanical layer could be considered a threat way before they are implemented in game, and redesigns of game mechanics can have an even worse effect. This option is not impossible or nocive, simply stupidly hard to conceive with veteran players in mind and mentally exhausting with all the negative feedback they'll create since they are about virtually every player.

The third option is the development of other game mechanics, tied to the core experience without being intrusive. Cetus, Fortuna, the Archwing, dojos, the Railjack. The lack of connectivity and progression linked to more conventional game mechanics is indeed sometimes problematic. However, they are also great for experimenting and making the game diverse and exciting, without (in theory) attracting the anger of veteran players who should have the reason they play the game relatively unaffected. And that's it, that's the reason this option is chosen in priority. In this topic's case, the fact that the core experience is unaffected is what angers OP. However, the first option would completely fail at making Warframe interesting to players interested by big games and other types of mechanics or wanting some kind of novelty, and the second one would mean making impossible choices that would always frustrate someone (like me with the Archwing being changed).

 

Il y a 4 heures, ValinorAtani a dit :

From my point of view DE has the problem right now, does their current playerbase (I know, not everyone uses the forum ) is still matching their vision of Warframe provided 6 years ago? Or are those only a minority of players who would like to see their vision gets reality? What if the majority are solo players and don’t want to be forced into pugs, coop play (put here anything else inside which is new to Warframe) and have fun with the stale mission design of slashing enemies into pieces with a story quest here and there?

If this majority is as you say, then the majority will be satisfied with solo missions that require no coordination, correct ? The issue is, there is nothing appealing about that, and without new players the game can only die as this majority grows tired of the game, no matter how many small additions there will be. Environments and ennemies are, in my opinion, always small additions in their own, devoid of any vision or gameplay renewal, but extremely costly. DE would suffocate extremely fast by lack of ambition, and I don't think anyone here wants that.

 

 

 

[Paradoxity]

41 minutes ago, Xefonis said:

To be fair, I also see their point. It... kind of makes me overly bitter and I don't hide it well enough, but I see more or less what they mean.

But what frustrates me is the paradoxical stand they take. They play a game that they've been enjoying in an, honestly, kind of amazing way. I don't think I could remain faithful like that to an online coop game for five years if all I had was the same core experience. So, somehow, they are fine playing with the elements that were present since day one, and additional gameplay feels more like a forgettable bonus. Which also means that any change to this core experience present from the beginning is risking losing those players since nothing else seems to retain their attention.

 

From this situation, there are three options for the devs. The first one is to add "layers", basic extensions of this core concept (new environments, new ennemies, new weapons, etc). Admittedly, Warframe has been a bit slow at adding such bits compared to other games, but given how solid the core experience is, the whole thing would always remain extremely satisfying. And if designing a whole new map or ennemy needs enormous funds for a very minor change of the game (one boss would be fought during 0,0001% of the time spent playing VS 0,1% for some vehicles), it could be argued as a questionable choice.

The second is to add mechanical layers (liches), but as we've seen, they can be easily considered a nuisance (too much or too little RNG or such debates) as soon as they enter the core experience. For those veteran players, any mechanical layer could be considered a threat way before they are implemented in game, and redesigns of game mechanics can have an even worse effect. This option is not impossible or nocive, simply stupidly hard to conceive with veteran players in mind and mentally exhausting with all the negative feedback they'll create since they are about virtually every player.

The third option is the development of other game mechanics, tied to the core experience without being intrusive. Cetus, Fortuna, the Archwing, dojos, the Railjack. The lack of connectivity and progression linked to more conventional game mechanics is indeed sometimes problematic. However, they are also great for experimenting and making the game diverse and exciting, without (in theory) attracting the anger of veteran players who should have the reason they play the game relatively unaffected. And that's it, that's the reason this option is chosen in priority. In this topic's case, the fact that the core experience is unaffected is what angers OP. However, the first option would completely fail at making Warframe interesting to players interested by big games and other types of mechanics or wanting some kind of novelty, and the second one would mean making impossible choices that would always frustrate someone (like me with the Archwing being changed).

 

If this majority is as you say, then the majority will be satisfied with solo missions that require no coordination, correct ? The issue is, there is nothing appealing about that, and without new players the game can only die as this majority grows tired of the game, no matter how many small additions there will be. Environments and ennemies are, in my opinion, always small additions in their own, devoid of any vision or gameplay renewal, but extremely costly. DE would suffocate extremely fast by lack of ambition, and I don't think anyone here wants that.

 

 

 

Ya know, kinda keying off this, if you'd have told me, way back when I dropped my money on the founder's pack for a 'fun little game', that warframe would become what it is now, I'd have laughed at you. While I have problems with some things that have been added and don't always agree with the decisions DE makes on what to do next, I will say that the sheer scope of the game has gotten impressive and that even if a player doesn't like something, there's plenty else to do. 

 

 

 

[Awazx]

Il y a 7 heures, Xefonis a dit :

this wasn't enough. Instead he should have done what the community wanted, more copy-pasted "content" to be experienced in the same way and bringing absolutely nothing new in therm of game experience. 

I cannot speak on behalf of the community, so I will speak only from my opinion:

You admit in your post that the core of the game is boring. I agree. Well, what I ask is that it be fun again. The cause of the core of the game feels boring and old is the responsibility of DE, and is caused by 3 factors mainly:

1. Errors that remain in the code for years, literally.
2. Bad design of dynamics and systems. (Lich, or "open world" that is not open world).
3. Systems and dynamics that are left incomplete. DE is widely known for a work style, type: "drop content -> abandon it for years -> move to the next incomplete content".

Empyrean (or any other similar system added) is a patch in a fabric that is broken and does not solve the central problem: a bad management of DE towards the project and towards the nucleus that we know by "Warframe".

Edited December 18, 2019 by Awazx

[Blatantfool]

 I coulda made a wordy post but Awazx above me here actually caught some of the meat of my opinion in his post so for the most part ^- Ditto -^

 In order for me to be able to continue to enjoy Warframe I've basically had to cut down my involvement in the game to a ludicrous degree. The little issues aren't so bad for the typical player who may have only been on this pony here for two to three years. Thing is, the longer you go and the more you keep up with Warframe the more I personally find that combined with the doldrums of grinding the feeling of burn out and a loss of the will to put effort towards pushing forwards in this game is kinda beat out of me a good bit. 

  That problem isn't exclusive to Warframe however. Beat any horse for roughly five years and you'll be ankle deep in glue if you were the least bit enthusiastic while you were at it. You either leave the game early or play it long enough to realize that you can't look past the problems you have with it because you're just tired of grinding and tired of waiting to see if maybe someday Dojos or Archwing or [Insert what grinds your gears here] get a second pass and get a better shot at being this bad ass thing.

[Vejova]

On 2019-12-17 at 11:58 AM, Hexsing said:

This is a PVE game right?

People who don't know how to truly cooperate with other humans will always turn everything into a competitive e-peen measuring contest.

I should know, because mine is the biggest.

[(PSN)Herrwann69]

Il y a 3 heures, Paradoxity a dit :

 

The problem is not adding new things and new gameplay, the problem is the way it's done. Never working together, never polished and never finished.

I like Archwing, I farmed mods for it to be able to make reliable build but why ? No content, a non potato Amesha is enough to clear all the contents. Nothing new to play since.

I liked Cetus. Lots of flaws but a new refreshing way to play Warframe. But it's still in terrible state today. Then the horrible Fortuna, worst Cetus. It was a shame day one and it's still bad today with almost no effort to save it.

 

Then there is focus, syndicats ...

Not even talking about bugs here for years, damage rework and shield ...

DE needs to focus on polishing the game not only on big shiny born dead updates.

[Xefonis]

Il y a 2 heures, Awazx a dit :

You admit in your post that the core of the game is boring. I agree. Well, what I ask is that it be fun again. The cause of the core of the game feels boring and old is the responsibility of DE, and is caused by 3 factors mainly:

1. Errors that remain in the code for years, literally.
2. Bad design of dynamics and systems. (Lich, or "open world" that is not open world).
3. Systems and dynamics that are left incomplete. DE is widely known for a work style, type: "drop content -> abandon it for years -> move to the next incomplete content".

I'm slightly surprise by how you say that I find the core of the game boring. It's... kind of what I said, but the reason behind my boredom doesn't reside in lack of quality, but in repetitivity.

If the game still exists today, it's for a reason: the core gameplay is incredibly fun in its own right. It becomes boring after a while, no matter how good it is, like for many things.

I don't have a lot of expectations regarding the core gameplay, because you can't fix what is not broken. Sure, it needs improvement and extensions, but it still works really well. I am going to trust you on your three points because you obviously know more about me about these issues (I still find debatable the claim that those open worlds are not true open worlds), but, I can still start a mission, finish a mission and keep all my drop in most instances, all by still being able to do all the running around and shooting I enjoy. My main two complains would be about stealth being forgettable and parkour being underused, but those are issues that would require a whole redesign of environments (something that might have started with Jupiter). But still, I like the core gameplay a lot, I just need to enrich the experience a bit with other ways of playing sometimes.

I fully agree that the game needs polishing on pre-existing features. But at the same time, features like the railjack are the kind of things that can make me excited and make me feel like Warframe is getting one step closer to a "complete" game, with a full solar system explorable in every way. And I have the hope that the next phase of the project, connecting squads and gameplays, could be the one thing to make the whole game fluid and stable for everyone.

[Colyeses]

On 2019-12-13 at 11:30 PM, Awazx said:

You could have improved and redesigned all the game systems that you have in the habit of leaving to action after its launch

And yet the criticism levelled at Empyrean is that it's Archwing 2.0, and you go on to complain that you're now dusting off your Archwing. Sounds like you got what you asked for.

Also...

On 2019-12-13 at 11:30 PM, Awazx said:

You could have spent that time creating a whole new solar system, with new planets, enemies and mysteries to discover.

That would last all of a day. It'd be the exact same thing we've had since launch, just with a different nametag! 

We needed new gameplay loops and Empyrean brought that. It's not perfect, far from it, but it is exactly the kind of thing Warframe needed.