Empyrean and the decline of Warframe

[(PSN)Herrwann69]

il y a 48 minutes, Colyeses a dit :

We needed new gameplay loops.

New gameplay loops like PvP, lunaro, archwing, open world (mining and fishing), sentient, k-drive ?

Or maybe Warframe is already full of different gameplay loops with only a few well implanted and that's not what it's needed ? Maybe what is needed is consistency and regularity on the update size, quality technically wise, and not the way they are doing it today with buggy half baked updates released in steps at a unreadable pace and a tendency to put everything aside before finishing the work ?

[Dalis918]

RNG on Loot. Well. My interest in Railjack has suddenly plummeted. It's a goddamned terrible idea and it's just artificial extension on an already long grind.

[Mephane]

On 2019-12-18 at 1:05 AM, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

Rng stats on a game with loot is like the most common practice literally look at any other looter shooter especially borderlands

A game has to be designed from the group up for it. Warframe isn't, it's designed for fixed stat upgrades in a flexible slot system. Also, games that have RNG stats on loot don't require you to also grind a huge pile of resources in order to use them. In Borderlands, you pick up a new gun and use it immediately. DE are trying to have it both ways now, RNG stats and the crafting costs befitting a system without RNG stats.

16 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

You are going to succeed in the mission whether your Cryophon deals 12k damage or 14k damage. Optimal stats are just gravy, and if anything is forcing you to grind for them, it's yourself.

Funny you use that particular example, because the Cryophon is a weapon where the difference between the number of shots required for a kill is very noticable,and if you end up just shy of a kill it is very annoying.

[Corvenir]

Don't knight up for RNG.

The forgotten Kuva Lich system, alternating loot that alternates the same loot 6 times in a row. (After a day of that crap, I'm with done Liches)

RNG Lich, Grind for Relics, Grind Mods, Grind a pattern if your lucky you'll get it done in an hour, if your not 3 hours.

(We need pay off system with a CD, "You can pay off your Lich once day!" "You can do it multiple times for 50plat")

Now that we've moved onto Railjack while it's fun during it's honeymoon period.

These 30 minute+ missions 90 enemies, 6 crewships, and objectives these are not normal mission play times especially if the RNG is this large.

Stuff I've gotten on Saturn with lower RNG range is better than the stuff in the Veil??

I don't really care about Rivens, in my mind Warframe wasn't made to be RNG based, but these last two mainline updates.

Lets just say 2020 is a year where several polished(I HOPE!) AAA games are coming out monthly. (Don't get me wrong though, I'll visit my side chick occasionally lol)

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Corvenir
mind fart

[Teridax68]

On 2019-12-17 at 7:06 PM, Mephane said:

Well, this is all fine and well except for the part where it cost tons of resources to make dropped loot usable in the first place. You can't have it both ways and expect the players to just accept it - either stats are random and it is supposed to be a grind for better items, or it is supposed to have fixed stats and it is a grind for materials, blueprints etc. Warframe has always been the latter, so pushing it in the direction of the former clashes hard with the fundamental reality of this game.

This I think hits one of the key problems with the new generation of loot: grindy games distinctly fall into one of two categories, where games in category A shower the player in loot, but only some of the loot is worth keeping, and games in category B make the player grind piecemeal for loot that is guaranteed to be a keeper. Warframe is a category B game, and trying to make it into a category A game as well just leads to a game where the player spends a lot of time grinding for a reward that may be identical, yet statistically inferior to what one has already. It should normally be obvious that this is an utterly stupid progression model, not least because it combines the worst of both worlds, by making the player struggle at length for ultimately no consistent payoff. Already, a whole lot of players have been turned completely off of Kuva Liches and Railjack, just as many players have refused to participate in Riven mod grinding before then, so at some point DE is going to have to accept that this isn't a sustainable way of generating replayability in their game, before the player pushback translates into more serious consequences for player count, goodwill, and whatnot.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Teridax68

[taiiat]

i think most of the issues with Railjack grinding are housed inside of Resource sharing being a bit of a mess and balance for some of the Resources in terms of essentially being only from Enemies or only from Mining. not to mention that the Refining limits of the Cargo Bay are..... not something fun nor satisfying to work with, it doesn't feel like it serves any useful purpose other than being a chore to maintain.
these kinds of disproportionate skews makes some Resources dramatically less Common than the others. if/when these problems are absolved, the grinding should feel noticeably smoother.

if those issues are dealt with, then building some __ that looked good to get you an upgrade and then scrapping it later on for an upgrade over that, will feel much more palatable.

 

On 2019-12-17 at 8:31 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Anything that’s not excessive grind

They’ve been making the game for 7 years, and that’s been working for them for 7 YEARS! 

that person asked for some clarification.

sortof? Warframe ran out of content sometime in 2015 when regular Events stopped however. since then there's been a few things that added some significant content via adding actually new things  - though many of the 'content' updates have just been doing more of the same thing we were doing in 2013 in order to collect some new trinket.
there's some major holes in that stuff over time, and those holes take the shape of that generally 'new content' has tasked Players with just playing the same Solar Map Missions they have been doing for years, but not they have to do those same generic Missions even more.
with Liches going off the deep end for that, where you have to play about 5x as many normal Missions to complete anything in that content. so many steps of "now go do some random Mission, again!" before you're allowed to even take part in the single new thing involved with the content (the actual Killing of the Lich).

 

but we have actually new stuff to do for once, even a basic Exterminate Mission in Railjack is very different from what we've been doing since 2013 (Railjack Exterminate isn't mindnumbingly boring! wow). and stuff to grind to coincide with that.

On 2019-12-17 at 9:07 PM, Anduvriel said:

I think they added weapons to that rullete in this update

FWIW, Railjack Weapons apparently always had those random Stat Bonuses, but they were hidden on initial deployment (because ofcourse they were, Warframes' middle name is hiding all of the important information while showing fluff).

Edited December 19, 2019 by taiiat

[Sapphirya]

As someone who loves space combat and was super hyped for Empyrean, the RNG stats on the ship parts make me worried and dismayed. I don't fly my cool spaceship around because I'm lusting over the idea of getting an engine but with 0.01% better boost speed, I fly it around because *gasp* space combat is awesome. Not to mention we've got intrinsics to grind for, some of which universally buff Archwing in all other game modes, and we've still got all the other content coming up—lichs, whatever the Corpus equivalent is, the new war, derelicts and stuff. We only have the framework right now, so people should not be praising RNG simply because it's what's "keeping the mode alive". Technically it is, I guess? But that's only because currently we only have a tiny piece of what Empyrean will (hopefully) become. Last I checked, this game had gone on for years without RNG gear and I don't recall it being in any danger of dying before Rivens became a thing.

Of course, that's just my perspective. Personally I don't get "that thrilling feel of heading back to the dojo to check on the drops you got". I feel anxiety and resignation when I head back from the veil to halfheartedly check on my loot, because I know it's just gonna be yet another garbage reactor with less avionics capacity than the Mk-II one I've already got. Just add it to the pile.

[SordidDreams]

36 minutes ago, Sapphirya said:

Personally I don't get "that thrilling feel of heading back to the dojo to check on the drops you got". I feel anxiety and resignation when I head back from the veil to halfheartedly check on my loot, because I know it's just gonna be yet another garbage reactor with less avionics capacity than the Mk-II one I've already got. Just add it to the pile.

Exactly. I don't get why everyone, players and devs, seems to be in love with RNG drops and stats. Some people feel joy when they randomly get what they want, I guess? Doesn't work for me, my reaction is "f*cking finally". I liked WF precisely because, aside from rivens, there were no RNG stats, so once you got the item you wanted, that was it, you were done with that particualr farm. With RNG stats, you're never done unless you get the max roll. I guess that's a plus in some people's minds? To me it's discouraging, I don't consider it sustainable content and it'll make me play the game less, not more. If getting what I want takes 10 hours of farming, I'll play the game for 10 hours. If it takes 100 hours, I won't play the game at all and will do something else instead.

Edited December 19, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Paradoxity]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Herrwann69 said:

The problem is not adding new things and new gameplay, the problem is the way it's done. Never working together, never polished and never finished.

I like Archwing, I farmed mods for it to be able to make reliable build but why ? No content, a non potato Amesha is enough to clear all the contents. Nothing new to play since.

I liked Cetus. Lots of flaws but a new refreshing way to play Warframe. But it's still in terrible state today. Then the horrible Fortuna, worst Cetus. It was a shame day one and it's still bad today with almost no effort to save it.

 

Then there is focus, syndicats ...

Not even talking about bugs here for years, damage rework and shield ...

DE needs to focus on polishing the game not only on big shiny born dead updates.

oh, no doubt. I happen to agree with that- I'd like to see more systems integrated with each other and more polish put on older (and newer) gameplay loops. I think Empyrean is an excellent step in that direction- *everything* matters there. Warframe, archwing, Railjack, all three factor into that game mode. I'm not super excited about railjack resources being their own thing (again), but I do understand why- if we were able to use endo instead of dirac, most of us would be able to rock fully upgraded avionics as soon as we got them. Ditto the repair resources- DE does want content to last, and being able to tap into my supply of standard resources to repair stuff for the ship would mean it lasts about as long as the  repair timers. 

That all said, though, DE's in a  catch 22 situation. Polish and expansion are desperately needed in a lot of areas- Open world, as you mentioned, Syndicates, Focus. But polish  and expansion of old stuff, apparently, doesn't bring in players and get them spending money, and DE has to make money- which is what the big  flashy expansions  are for. You'll note there were two railjack skins for sale, along with an armor bundle and  a pistol skin, on release. 

But, despite that, my initial point remains- if you'd told me, way back when, that Warframe 2019 was what we'd end up with, I'd have laughed you out of the room. The differences in scope between then and now are astonishing, and while I don't agree with every step taken by DE, I'm still not mad I spent the money I have on the game- and I'm still excited for the potential Empyrean brings to the table. 

[ikkabotz]

This is what happens when devs dont listen to their audience. Empryean looked like a miss before ever getting off the ground, why they pursued it shows their stubborness to do what players dont want

[Colyeses]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Herrwann69 said:

Maybe what is needed is consistency and regularity on the update size, quality technically wise, and not the way they are doing it today with buggy half baked updates released in steps at a unreadable pace and a tendency to put everything aside before finishing the work ?

So, zero content, just patching for the sake of patching?

[Azrael_V]

What gets me the most is the stats range for each class of Lavan, Vidar and Zetki. I just repaired a Vidar MK 1 Shield Array which has 251 Shield Cap. A few missions later a Zetki MK1 Shield Array drops and I'm overjoyed...until I look at the stats. Only 153 Shield Cap🤦 .Surely the worst Zetki stats should at least be objectively better than any Vidar or Lavan of the same class. DE's own wording says that Zetki components were considered to be the best of the best. This bad overlap of stat ranges combined with low drop rates is really unfair to players and not rewarding at all. 

[Anduvriel]

I basically agree to everything @Teridax68 wrote, Warframe always struck me as the place i can get a full nice collection of everything this game has to offer (have all weapons and frames in arsenal including frames with primes and mk weapons just sitting there (lack only trinity and broken war) and almost all pve mods (lack around 20ish now as they added parazon mods)) and i really like that approach, tingles my collectionist note the right way. On the other hand i also enjoy games like Path of Exile.. 

They are trying a different aproach, something that is in between RNG based and grind based. Bashing them after a week of the system in alpha mode is probably to early. I kinda like how they did lich weapons, the rng there is not bad, but opened the market for some items and put some min-maxing grind for people that like that. RNG there doesn't bother me, i don't feel i need to get the max on every weapon for my collection and just getting all of them is fairly easy.

I just feel we need them to polish the railjack system a bit more. Give them some time to put out phase 3, see how they approach this new game mode, which even right now is fun to be honest and can be something that will change warframe in a good direction. I am fine with them exploring different possibilities even if i am not fullly sold on them yet.

Right now the parts you want for RJ, drop only as rewards with 2% chance at the end of every veil missions. Each node has the same chance which is bad idea (no one will do harder content if easier nets same rewards, imagine Terry droping energise), The rng stats on engines/shield/reactor are also pretty busted in the scope of rng. Zetki reactor mk3 ranges from 10-90 avionics capacity, vidar mk3 from rewards 35-100 and each has 5 additional modifiers on top. Thats kinda harsh, thou on the other hand of the stick i got around 5+ zetki reactors already (max roll i got is 44 capacity). If you want to go for the max stat on avionics capacity you need that vidar mk3 which will not drop even after a lot of missions, but if you can accept something like 85 capacity (85% of max) you should get there pretty soon as they drop from enemies (you get a pretty stable influx of them).

Edited December 19, 2019 by Anduvriel
wording

[SordidDreams]

2 hours ago, Azrael_V said:

What gets me the most is the stats range for each class of Lavan, Vidar and Zetki. I just repaired a Vidar MK 1 Shield Array which has 251 Shield Cap. A few missions later a Zetki MK1 Shield Array drops and I'm overjoyed...until I look at the stats. Only 153 Shield Cap🤦 .Surely the worst Zetki stats should at least be objectively better than any Vidar or Lavan of the same class. DE's own wording says that Zetki components were considered to be the best of the best. This bad overlap of stat ranges combined with low drop rates is really unfair to players and not rewarding at all. 

So what you're saying is, don't repair stuff until stat ranges are known and there's a chart available on the wiki in order to see if what you got is even worth investing into. Gotcha. Wonderful f*cking game design, punishing players for exploring the game.

[LazyRogue]

Empyrean, better known as railjack; is an update that I have been excited to see since it was an idea and was hyped for since tennocons confirmation trailer and let me tell you, when DE said it was going to be delayed until after December I was a little upset to say the least and to my surprise when it was released a lot earlier I lost myself more than a little, I was so happy until I wasn't..

DE has always had bugs in their updates as does any game no matter how much time is spent on polishing it and debugging but DE this is ridiculous even for you, I still love this update so much it is really fun and I have never been happier to be apart of this game and its community, but never have I ever wanted a release to be delayed more than Empyrean, this update sorely needed another month of debugging because there are so many game breaking, mission failing, infuriatingly numerous amount of bugs, to name just a few; 

• Infinite end loading screen back to drydock or mission, resulting in having to quit the game and lose everything.
• Entire crew bugging out and not being able to interact with anything or do anything, resulting catastrophic and avoidable failure .
• Objectives (not the kill everything one) not being marked correctly, at all or the radiators not extending, resulting in having to quit.
• Everyone's Equipment including weapons, frames, archwing and sometimes even the railjack itself unmodding themselves making high-level mission impossible.

I will give DE its credit, they have done a great job of patching and hotfixing and working hard to make sure things get done, adding in nice features for QoL or needed changes like the recent font colour separation for Railjack title, or the indicator difference between fighters and crewships.

I enjoy so much about this update, the fluidity and speed of the railjacks flying, the sheer overwhelming swarms that make the entire crew go into hyper mode to keep everything running, the fact that Archwing now has more than just a small handful of missions to be used in, the true co-op feeling of it all, it is an absolutely amazing update but it is let down by both the game and immersion breaking bugs. 

DE I implore you to take all the time you need and more for Railjack part 3, and for Duviri and for every future update, please make sure you spend as much time as you can to ensure this doesn't happen again, I fear for the community of this games future if this happens again, most people are happy but the ones who aren't are very pissed off and angry and their first insult is always on the lines of "DE yOu ArE sO bAd FiX yOuR gAmE!" followed by a lot of disdain and badmouthing. DE does not deserve these words, they work hard and it does not go unnoticed by a lot of the community.

For everyone who took the time to read this, thanks and, please comment with something you love about this update and something that you don't but also let know DE the good job they're doing, help them see this.

 

[Azrael_V]

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

So what you're saying is, don't repair stuff until stat ranges are known and there's a chart available on the wiki in order to see if what you got is even worth investing into. Gotcha. Wonderful f*cking game design, punishing players for exploring the game.

Its crazy honestly and it gets worse. 

Check this out and see if it makes any sense:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Railjack/Components

Zetki MKII Shield Array has a chance to give you even lower values than Zetki MKI Shield Array. Zetki MKIII Shield Array has a chance to give you lower stats than Lavan MKI Shield Array. Their ranges according to the Wiki are out of whack. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Azrael_V

[Eklectus]

I've used the example before, but it's a good one for showing why random stats do not work with Warframe. Harrow farm.

That was, quite possibly, the most soul-crushing and disheartening grind I've gone through in the game. Now, imagine how it would feel if the frame I got in the end suddenly turned out to have less Shields/Range/Strength/Duration than the "baseline"

It's the exact same thing here. First, I've got to go through a long mission, using gear that's clearly underpowered for the content it's used in, hope for a drop, hope that drop will be what I actually need and then hope the stats will actually be worth my time... and then, after you've spent the resources on that piece of gear, there's always a chance that a better version will drop and you'll have to go through grinding more resources to build it. Either make all the gear stats standard, with possibility to upgrade them like we already have with our current arsenal, or make all this random equipment drop fully assembled and greatly increase storage limits. 

EDIT: Alternatively, keep the repair timer and add a resource cost to speed it up while making the actual process free, if you're so dead-set on filling the game with mobile-style timegates.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Eklectus

[DeerioJim]

oh. I hadnt tried the railjack yet (the guns of icarus gameplay doesnt appeal to me) and didnt know that sort of RNG was in it. now I want to play it even less.

[844448]

1 hour ago, Azrael_V said:

Its crazy honestly and it gets worse. 

Check this out and see if it makes any sense:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Railjack/Components

Zetki MKII Shield Array has a chance to give you even lower values than Zetki MKI Shield Array. Zetki MKIII Shield Array has a chance to give you lower stats than Lavan MKI Shield Array. Their ranges according to the Wiki are out of whack. 

But, zetki has shorter delay and higher % recovery, making it an ideal if you want to sacrifice some shield for faster recovery

Maybe look at the other stats instead of only narrowly looking at one stat only, yeah?

[Azrael_V]

40 minutes ago, 844448 said:

But, zetki has shorter delay and higher % recovery, making it an ideal if you want to sacrifice some shield for faster recovery

Maybe look at the other stats instead of only narrowly looking at one stat only, yeah?

So you want lower shields at faster shield recovery. You've been duped. Your recovery and delay stats are also subject to RNG. Ever thought of bad rolls on all stats? Not sure how anyone can defend this and why we even have any of it in the first place. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Azrael_V

[844448]

34 minutes ago, Azrael_V said:

So you want lower shields at faster shield recovery. You've been duped. Your recovery and delay stats are also subject to RNG. Ever thought of bad rolls on all stats? Not sure how anyone can defend this and why we even have any of it in the first place. 

You expect more shield and faster recovery? That will be pure powercreep and no one would use Lavan or Vidar for shield anymore

Why we have this? People that keep asking for sustainable content to keep them playing (grinding). There you go, the hunt for the god roll drops begins

[Thundervision]

After observing the game for the past few years, came to conclusion that most of the so-called RNG complaints can be summed up in one phrase: "I can't have the best possible %something% right here, right now just because I want so! Just a single thought about the possible existence of an item which is better than mine is killing me, devouring me from the inside!".

How comes I don't have a single stats-involving problem with Liches? I have no content but the Liches and Railjack (not counting Prime Access) to do. I don't have a problem with the Railjack, either. If I can't afford something, I work toward. I, for one, can't afford some Railjack modules I want, so I either farm for its requirements while also waiting for economy changes to drop or improve my ship with avionics or skills. I'm playing the game since the 2013 year, so according to chair-game designers of the past years, I should absolutely be pissed at any possible sign of predatory RNG in a f2p loot-based game. Surprisingly, I don't. Maybe because by this time I already know that when you have everything, there's nothing to play anymore.

I swear, the old Warframe community is what gave the game strenght, but the current one, which is way more casual and impatient that will just find any reason to complaint/overreact about just because it's not being served on a silver plate in an instant, will eventually be the nail in the game's coffin. It's clear that some players were right about pushing stronger requirement for progression in the game rather than dumb MR requirements that people macroslide speedfarm through.

I guess I wouldn't suggest OP to play Diablo, Borderlands or RPG games that have both vertical and horizontal variety for loot, then.

 

Quote

DE 2017: We want to reduce the grind

DE 2019: Introducing two new game systems where one is literally nothing more than excessive RNG stacking and grind, and the other ties part of your progression to upgrades with completely random stats.

They don’t have our interests in mind as much as they used to.

And knowing that there could be a better version of the item you got is more demoralizing than it is thrilling. Because it means you COULD have gotten a better item but the game was like “naw f*** you”.

"I could've gotten a winning ticket, but the life was like "naw f*** you!"

The RNG and excessive grind you're complaining about may be something other players are looking for, while they, in return, may have something you're looking for. RNG this, RNG that. It's the 2020 year. We have numerous subreddits with specific roles, we have Discord with a crapton of channels for trading and barter. Clans, Alliances, forums and yadda yadda yadda. Why don't you just find someone to help each other instead of wasting your time on the forums complaining about overexaggerated issue with no outcome at all? You're cursing the wall in front of you when there's a door next to you.

Quote

the other ties part of your progression to upgrades with completely random stats.

I call BS. Since the Clan Tech already has set stats and tiers, nothing stops you from not using random stats if you don't want to or even despise it. The statement above describes this very situation. You're not complaining about RNG, you're complaining about the fact that you simply can't have best possible results just because you want it. And you can't stand it.

 

Edit:

Okay, that might have been harsh or rude even. Sorry for that. Seems like I've reached my boiling point after years of enduring all the people's possible reasons to complain about. I initially got triggered by the OP message's direction, and you mate just happened to be collateral damage

Edited December 19, 2019 by Thundervision

[Anduvriel]

The problem i have with rng systems is the base stuff that you can get with decent amount of play is usually not enough... so to actually enjoy something you need to roll the dice. The question is, Is this the case of railjack? 

Lets take railjack engines as an example. Currently flux capacity is not that important, avionics capacity on the other hand is strictly tied to the power and defense of your vessel. You need that to equip mods. 

Right now the engines mk3 are: dojo  50c, lavan 26-70c, zetki 11-50c and vidar 35-100c.

I will say it simple, 50c is probably enough to have a decent railjack and there is no gamble in it, its not awesome, but good enough to have a good experience. My friend has a 60ish engine and we can stay on rj in the middle of everything and not worry about it and there is enough capacity left to have 2 battle skills on top, one of which we use for shytts and giggles (battle ram). 

Which means that those grindable gamble ones are not like a reactor on a frame, more like a forma on a prime frame. 

I am willing to give de some room on this as they show that they actually have a pretty decent idea how to manage rng stats. Give everyone a solid base without any rng for a decent grind.. and full blown rng min-maxing as an endgame. 

[Sapphirya]

4 minutes ago, Thundervision said:

Borderlands

If you're farming the Warrior for a Lv60 Conference Call legendary shotgun and one drops for you, it will NEVER be worse than a Lv50 one that you might currently have. It will always have better damage and better passive stats, because the brackets for what stats the weapon can have based on its level are reasonable. The same can't be said for railjack parts, where a Mk-III reactor can and often does have worse stats than a Mk-II one.

[Azrael_V]

1 minute ago, 844448 said:

You expect more shield and faster recovery? That will be pure powercreep and no one would use Lavan or Vidar for shield anymore

Why we have this? People that keep asking for sustainable content to keep them playing (grinding). There you go, the hunt for the god roll drops begins

Thats on DE. They stated that Zetki is the 'Best of the Best'. I'm going on their words. So when I see a Zetki roll worse than a Vidar roll then I feel extremely done in. Set a specified range of stats with less complications that makes sense then I will be satisfied. I can't imagine being on a Zetki MKIII roll with worse stats than a Lavan MKI. I mean seriously.