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Spin2win is dead (thank god), its time to replace it once and for all. Some side talk about CL as well.


quietcanary
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Edit: So apparently I wasn't clear enough that I do not care that the Spin2win meta is dead. I hated it as much as anyone else. What you are about to read is a suggestion to remove it from the game almost completely. The mod itself filled a unique role in modding for non crit weapons that I liked but DE never should have allowed it to mix with Blood Rush and they certainly let range on weapons get out of hand. These changes from melee 3.0 are great. Leaving Maiming strike as a dead mod and weapons with low crit as dead weapons is not. Now that you have read this primer i'm hoping I get a whole lot less pointless comments, and a whole lot more suggestions or ideas about fixing the situation. Title also editted for clarity.

Spin Crit is dead. Weapons that used to rely on its additive advantage cannot use the multiplicative mod. They also cant really get buffed enough to change the build to using better crit mods or every weapon will have crit. All that spin crit is now is a harder to use weaker variant that doesn't fit in anywhere in the melee combat system. The stat cannot be used in combination with heavy, aerial, slam, finisher, lift, or stance combo attacks and all of those take regular crit into account. Even slide attacks prefer regular crit mods itself and all of those other attacks are now better than a slide attack during normal use anyway.  Stances now cover mobility in a much better way (in most cases) so slides have even lost its one possible niche as a decent gap closer. I thought slide attacks were going to receive a mechanical rework alongside melee 3.0 to be more conical and cut down on the meta so we wouldn't have to nerf it out of existence but here we are and I think it needs rectifying. I don't think a numerical buff is the answer as the amount it would require to compete with the newly buffed crit mods would be stupidly astronomical and would just make slides as problematic as before. Slide attacks were just one example of what I think is a much bigger problem which I'll call the "Either or" problem. If you include niche mods, if they don't compete with generalist mods then they will be ignored, but if they do then they will be spammed unhealthy. This is because the mod only rewards the action with a benefit toward that action rather than rewarding the action with a reward that encourages appropriate usage of said action. It's pretty simple in that if you use have a mod that gives a huge boost to doing one thing but only that one thing, then people are either gonna do only that one thing or they will ignore it. My idea to counter that is why not have performing all of these special attacks reward all attacks equally so you can use the attacks where its appropriate?

I am basically suggesting replacing Maiming Strike with a mod aimed at what I will now refer to as "style attacks" that stacks similiar to the Berserker mod. I also suggest it be a unique (non stacking) damage-multiplying-debuff on enemies instead of a standard damage stat for a few reasons. One is that it would encourage combination attacks rather than provide frontloaded damage which could lead to the second coming of spin2win. Secondly it would allow the mod to get much better scaling similiar to how Condition Overload and Berserker are both exceedingly more powerful than other mods on paper. Third is that it might be allowed to double dip when it comes to status procs that deal damage since forced procs through heavy attacks are currently overwhelming everything else. Weapons without crit that are forced to build alot of status will thank you for making something that can be used to replace additive crits old multiplier.

As a example the mod could read something like this: "Target receives 100% increased damage per unique style attack affecting the target stacking 3 times for 24 seconds."

I wanted to cover the changes made to Covert Lethality as well since it seems like almost the same situation. The mod used to be a incredible niche to build into that you had to really think about how to enable to be able to instant kill only certain applicable targets and now its a mess. Finisher damage and initial combo cannot even be used together properly in most cases since initial combos best use is to boost heavy attacks frontloaded damage, which cannot be performed at the same time as finishers, or to boost give a small boost to stacking mods ahead of time such as weeping wounds and blood rush which has the same problem. I don't have any good ideas on how to change this one without basing it on the old concept but daggers really need something to set them apart. I think the change was absolute overkill and the mod could have been tweaked to something like a holdable finisher animation that did percent health damage over time affected by attack speed. This would keep its original purpose of being able to kill any level of enemy but would have allowed for its instant kill potential to be pulled into a mechanic that encourages stealth? Even the old flat damage per hit that it used to give was a more usable effect than the one we have now.

 

I'd appreciate any feedback from anyone willing, but i'd especially like some reassurance from DE that something is going to be done. 

Edited by quietcanary
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10 минут назад, Carlosxbbc сказал:

s2w dead?? I've seen spinners more often ever since they introduced melee 3.0 (atterax is dead, but most of the weapons are not viable to s2w)

after 3.0 patch i remember info that spin attacks are weaker,cant remember why,maybe cause they dont have any dmg multiplier like any combo attacks or maybe cause they are weirdly applying some things...but anyway,they are weaker. So dont see a reason even using them with no maiming strike (old).

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As a console player I still use my Atty and slowly tickle enemies to death because I legitimately enjoy the rhythmic combat, especially combined with rhythm based frames like Octavia.

Is it much weaker to the point of being nearly useless? Yes.

Is it still fun to use? Yes. -ish...

Has the nerf turned me into a grubby little leech who relies almost entirely on my teammates to kill stuff for me? Absolutely.

I'm not going to stop using a weapon I have fun with just because DE nerfs it into the ground, but I really hope the Atty gets some buffs to bring it back up to being even half decent...

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2 hours ago, Melanholic7 said:

after 3.0 patch i remember info that spin attacks are weaker,cant remember why,maybe cause they dont have any dmg multiplier like any combo attacks or maybe cause they are weirdly applying some things...but anyway,they are weaker. So dont see a reason even using them with no maiming strike (old).

The reason why S2W is weaker is the CC. Old Blood Rush multiplied old Maiming Strike’s 90% so in one combo Multiplier, you was already in Red Crit territory. Combine with a long ranged Slash Weapon, high Crit Damage, and high Range, you would get addicted to be using that Combo because the damage would be through the roof. But now both Blood Rush and Maiming Strike calculate current Crit Chance + Blood Rush being at 60%, you are better off using Sacrifical Steel + Blood Rush for a Weapon with high Crit Stats to S2W.

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2 minutes ago, quietcanary said:

But compare the spin crit to the regular crit on that mod? It completely proves my point... Did you read the post or just get triggered by the title...

It add's to it. 

 

You seem to be the one triggered here hating that it got changed. 300% crit chance or 500% crit chance.. I know which I'd take. 

Edited by Fire2box
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3 minutes ago, Fire2box said:

It add's to it. 

 

You seem to be the one triggered here hating that it got changed. 300% crit chance or 500% crit chance.. I know which I'd take. 

You are ignoring math. That spot on your riven could be giving you much more dps considering your build is either using Blood Rush or Sacrificial Steel already which provide either 660% or 275% critical chance without forcing you into a one move playstyle. Even on whips slide crit is a less desireable stat than any other damage stat.

 

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2 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

Actually they made every stances onto spin2win, we'll just do W+E instead of SLIDE+E.

Slide crit is the stat we are talking about here which doesn't apply to anything other than slide attacks. Though what you said is mostly pointless i'll use it to make a point about how with the added range of attacks for all weapons the actual stat for slide attacks is even less desirable.

 

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23 hours ago, 8faiNt said:

I did explain in the past in a thread of mine but ppl are so much of a bigot so why should i even waste my time now

Because you brought your useless opinion to my thread so it matters now. So you can either explain and maybe make a valid point or let the time you spent making the comment and thread go to waste.

Edit: I actually searched your history trying to find your post, but it's just a long history of toxic comments so I think i'll pass on hearing your opinion thanks.

Edited by quietcanary
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On 2019-12-14 at 10:24 AM, 8faiNt said:

s2w isnt dead

Correct, if you liked the spin2win play style try this build out from this video I saw. I run machete a high crit zaw build does pretty good and I equipped Dispatch Overdrive, Berserker, Corrupt Charge, Sacrificial Steel, CO, Organ Shatter, Primed Reach, and Killing Blow and Im usually killing everything in exterminate mission running through every room with Exoida Force.

Start the video at about 3:15

Or with high crit weapons now you can use Corrupt Charge + Scrificial Steel + Primed Reach and Focus School Naramon and full Power Spike to keep your combo up, if you are still looking to to slide attack high crit kills. The same weapons dont work now aka Atterax.

They are not as good as the old Atterax spin2win but still works great, orange and sometimes red criting base on your builds

Also if your Red Crits are not Slash, its not really effective. I wish that was different.

Edited by kwlingo
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43 minutes ago, quietcanary said:

Because you brought your useless opinion to my thread so it matters now. So you can either explain and maybe make a valid point or let the time you spent making the comment and thread go to waste.

Edit: I actually searched your history trying to find your post, but it's just a long history of toxic comments so I think i'll pass on hearing your opinion thanks.

couldnt care less about your opinion about me

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1 hour ago, kwlingo said:

-Snip-

Did a single one of you even read the post? This is about the mod not the playstyle! I hated spin2win meta and actively avoided it! I want the literal spin crit STAT to change to something else so the mod isn't useless. I'm literally trying to remove spin2win as a concept from the game through a mod revision and people keep suggesting me more of it?! I already have a zaw created for a heavy attack machete and scythe and I have rivens for all 3 of the weapons. I appreciate the suggestion but you not having understood the point has been indicative of everyone's behavior in the comment section for my post. 

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