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Please don't nerf the amesha.


Test-995
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Most of people i see are using amesha in railjack and i think you guys gonna nerf it because statistics or whatever, please don't.

It's because most of other archwings are rather clunky and too fragile for railjack combat, not because amesha is overpowered.

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Amesha gets used so much because "LOL I'm immortal" is kinda helpful on missions where random grazing fire will one-shot you. It'd be nice if they'd make the other Archwings useful for Railjack missions, but we all know they're just going to nerf Amesha instead, then pat themselves on the back for it.

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9 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

no one is going to use elytron or odonata so amesha going to get nerfd just because of those two uselessness .

Let's hope not, because Elytron, Odonata, and Itzal all are useless in Railjack content. The kits across the board need to be cleaned up.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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The problem is that Archwing balance is utter pits. DE tried REALLY hard to make them into jet fighters in space, and consequently ended up with a lot of really dumb abilities. The Amesha is the only Archwing which has a set of dependable, non-situational abilities which "just work." It has a means of generating energy, it has a means of protecting itself, it has some amount of control and even a bubble which... Let's face it isn't very useful for Railjack missions. Although I haven't tried protecting the Railjack with it.

And then the other issue is - yes, even level 1-3 Fighters and especially Crew Ships deal just stupendous amounts of damage. Consider that they can cut through 1500 shield and 2000 armoured health on the Railjack in seconds, so what does that do to standard Archwing stats? It's a bit like trying to fight level 100+ ground enemies. If you didn't bring something excessively tough, you're going to get one-shot... Except this is happening at level 1.

I don't think nerfing the Amesha is the way to go. In this particular instance, I do genuinely believe that it's high time to rework the other three Archwings. Give them all SOME kind of damage mitigation ability and rework their useless abilities.

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1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

Let's face it isn't very useful for Railjack missions. Although I haven't tried protecting the Railjack with it.

Someone else tried doing just that and said it didn't work very well for protecting the Railjack.  This might change though as not sure if it's intended to work or not.  

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

Consider that they can cut through 1500 shield and 2000 armoured health on the Railjack in seconds, so what does that do to standard Archwing stats? It's a bit like trying to fight level 100+ ground enemies. If you didn't bring something excessively tough, you're going to get one-shot... Except this is happening at level 1.

This one (and I could be wrong as I haven't tested it myself just yet) could be a result of those trying to play Railjack after having neglected their AW by not ranking them up.  Kinda like the issue people had with farming Atlas.  I was hoping to test out my 2 forma Itzal and 2 forma Cyngas against the railjack enemies to see if I would have a problem.  I've been basing most of my Itzal's tactics and toughness against PoE Bounty 5 enemies.  I fully admit that I could be an outliner as I'm use to flight games and developed a fairly good situational awareness for open air/space combat.  Playing Ace Combat series and similar types (Armored Core) since about 1997 kinda have a way of drilling this into you.  😄  

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

I don't think nerfing the Amesha is the way to go.

I agree with this.  Although my reasons are slightly different than those given in this topic.  

Edited by DatDarkOne
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35 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This one (and I could be wrong as I haven't tested it myself just yet) could be a result of those trying to play Railjack after having neglected their AW by not ranking them up.  Kinda like the issue people had with farming Atlas.  I was hoping to test out my 2 forma Itzal and 2 forma Cyngas against the railjack enemies to see if I would have a problem.  I've been basing most of my Itzal's tactics and toughness against PoE Bounty 5 enemies.  I fully admit that I could be an outliner as I'm use to flight games and developed a fairly good situational awareness for open air/space combat.  Playing Ace Combat series and similar types (Armored Core) since about 1997 kinda have a way of drilling this into you.  😄  

To a point, yes. A lot of people are trying to use low-level Archwings for Railjack and it's not really panning out well for them. I have a fairly well-built Amesha, but even that loses all shields and A LOT of health if I forget to toggle my protection for even just a few seconds. And again - this is against low-level fighter craft - levels in their teens. I presume fighters go up to at least 50 or so, and presumably they'll do a MASSIVE amount of extra damage. My Archwing build is what I use to take on the Fomorian solo, it's what I use to hunt Eidolons, it's what I use as my go-to "main" build, right alongside my Inaros. I'm fine for the most part, but my performance drops drastically even just as we progress through the Earth nodes. I still feel that DE set ship stats WAAAY too high to account for the Railjack, and may need to apply some modifiers to Archwings to prevent them all from getting two-shot by random flak.

 

35 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I agree with this.  Although my reasons are slightly different than those given in this topic.  

Fair enough. I'm just saying that the Amesha isn't the issue. Railjack balance itself is... Let's go with "incomplete at this stage." I'd look into that before rebalancing Archwings, because that affects a lot more than just Railjack content.

Edited by Steel_Rook
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Enemies balance is a problem but do not act like amesha is even remotely balanced at all. Its the single most broken thing warframe has ever released in terms of balance. Infinite energy/invulnerability/across the board ability stat boost for 40+ seconds with next to no invesment from a single button! Status protection/slow. Healing and damage blocking. Another way of taking no damage at all.

Its crazy that they decided something needed 3 methods of reducing incoming damage when 1 of them is straight up invilnerability. They even made it so pretty much any fire in railjack seems to disable your 4th because even they acknowledge its just silly.

Edited by Annnoth
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4 hours ago, DarkRuler2500 said:

Most of the other Archwing abilities do a thing in Railjack... Amesha is the only one whose abilities DO JUST WORK.
Thats the secret.

It's more of a matter that the Amesha's abilities only affect itself and aren't offensive. Therefore, they're always there and useful no matter what's going on. 

2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

 I do genuinely believe that it's high time to rework the other three Archwings. Give them all SOME kind of damage mitigation ability and rework their useless abilities.

This is where AW should be going. Now we have a new game mode where AW is integral and not a side-game or a way to get from point A to point B a bit faster than other options. The other archwings should have capabilities that allow them to work in this new environment in an effective manner. 

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13 минут назад, Annnoth сказал:

They even made it so pretty much any fire in railjack seems to disable your 4th because even they acknowledge its just silly.

You are kinda wrong here. Read the ability again.

It gives you full invul when your energy is not at full and any incoming damage gives you energy. So with the amount of damage railjack enemies do you are pretty much guaranteed to have full bar in a single shot => invul turns off. It was like that for ages, you probably didn't notice cause nothing could put you into that position in regular missions. 

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18 minutes ago, Annnoth said:

Enemies balance is a problem but do not act like amesha is even remotely balanced at all. Its the single most broken thing warframe has ever released in terms of balance. Infinite energy/invulnerability/across the board ability stat boost for 40+ seconds with next to no invesment from a single button! Status protection/slow. Healing and damage blocking. Another way of taking no damage at all.

Its crazy that they decided something needed 3 methods of reducing incoming damage when 1 of them is straight up invilnerability. They even made it so pretty much any fire in railjack seems to disable your 4th because even they acknowledge its just silly.

But it doesn't have mobility of itzal, AoE of elytron, or damage buff of odonata.

O wait, they removed mobility from itzal...

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vor 6 Minuten schrieb Darth_Predator:

It gives you full invul when your energy is not at full and any incoming damage gives you energy. So with the amount of damage railjack enemies do you are pretty much guaranteed to have full bar in a single shot => invul turns off. It was like that for ages, you probably didn't notice cause nothing could put you into that position in regular missions. 

I thank you, senpai. 🙂
I was wondering why Amesha dies all the time and did not notice that I misread the ability.

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9 minutes ago, Darth_Predator said:

You are kinda wrong here. Read the ability again.

It gives you full invul when your energy is not at full and any incoming damage gives you energy. So with the amount of damage railjack enemies do you are pretty much guaranteed to have full bar in a single shot => invul turns off. It was like that for ages, you probably didn't notice cause nothing could put you into that position in regular missions. 

Ill concede i didnt know that. Like you said at no point nothing challenged me enough to hit mad energy while im using abilities. But at the same time they just means if enemy scaling gets put in line with everything else, amesha will just be better.

While everything might still get callenged a bit amesha just gets more leeway because your first ability, maybe i misunderstand this one too ill have to look at the wiki on it for the first time in years now lol, blocks a set amount of hits anyways. With your newfound 500+ energy its not had to work with.

Edited by Annnoth
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28 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I'm fine for the most part, but my performance drops drastically even just as we progress through the Earth nodes.

I'm also thinking that a good bit of this might be heavily related to the change with AW guns being projectiles and having damage fall-off now.  That one change nerfed many if not all of the AW guns.  

31 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Fair enough. I'm just saying that the Amesha isn't the issue. Railjack balance itself is... Let's go with "incomplete at this stage." I'd look into that before rebalancing Archwings, because that affects a lot more than just Railjack content.

Oh I completely agree with this.  

5 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

O wait, they removed mobility from itzal...

That's kinda overstating it maybe just a tad bit. :wink:  I only say this because after the AW changes I was still able to Blink with Itzal, just not repeatedly back to back to back.  Then again in all honesty I didn't really use Itzal just for blink.  😄  

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Problem is Crew ships and certain other ships have homing munitions - - with the amount of random fire happening in space other Archwings just don't have any survivability skills.

Elecytron being the greatest joke of all Archwings.

Press 4 fire nuke, watch it do 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 hp damage. That is if it even is able to hit anything to begin with. 

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4 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

The problem is not in Amesha. The problem is enemies are inflicting so much damage even on lowest levels only Amesha can survive.

That. And they their tankiness ramps up to ludicrous levels. A fighter (AW) should be able to destroy another fighter just as fast, not get turned to paste the second it leaves the ship, and not have to fire at it for 10 minutes; to mention nothing of those ships that just don't seem to ever take any damage.

Simply put, archwings and their guns need to be buffed to a point where they're the warframes of the railjack mode: i.e. not made of paper and trying to kill mountains by throwing rocks at them.

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3 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

All of you do know that Itzal has invisibility, right?  Along with Cosmic Crush, Ripline, and the limited Blink you have all the survival tools you need to not get shot down.  

Granted, none of that will protect the Tissue paper that is the Railjack ship.  

Apparently missiles still track you through invisibility, nor can you move, so whats the point anyways.  Ripline as far as I'm aware does nothing useful in railjack, or anything at all, tried it, and nothing happened.  And wtf does Cosmic Crush do in railjack?

Edited by Klaleara
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3 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Granted, none of that will protect the Tissue paper that is the Railjack ship.

 

3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

And then the other issue is - yes, even level 1-3 Fighters and especially Crew Ships deal just stupendous amounts of damage. Consider that they can cut through 1500 shield and 2000 armoured health on the Railjack in seconds, so what does that do to standard Archwing stats? It's a bit like trying to fight level 100+ ground enemies. If you didn't bring something excessively tough, you're going to get one-shot... Except this is happening at level 1.

I cannot understand why the enemies deal that much damage from the very start, I could understand it in the Veil Proxima, but how did anyone think that the damage on Earth was a good idea?

Of course people are latching onto cheese and assuming it being the only right way to play the game and assuming that this is all intentional, hence the Amesha spam and people parking their Railjack behind a rock and stealing other ships which DON'T implode at the slightest touch.

Edited by Aldain
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49 minutes ago, xxswatelitexx said:

Problem is Crew ships and certain other ships have homing munitions - - with the amount of random fire happening in space other Archwings just don't have any survivability skills.

This bit right there absolutely boggles my mind. Why the #*!% would you give AI ships tracking projectiles which largely devalue piloting skill? I guess I can ask the same about Bombards, but still. Imagine for a moment that Crew Ships had these massively powerful shells that they fire in long volleys, but that you could DODGE with your Railjack by employing clever manoeuvring. That would offer an extra skill element, it would reward captains for paying attention and staying on the move (rather than rotating in place like a turret) and be actually fun. Instead fights with Crew Ships are reduced to raw damage trades where you let the ship vent air for 50 seconds and wait while a team-mate goes to board them. It's absolutely silly, is what that is.

I'm fine with the AI attempting to lead target but they should never, under any circumstances, have homing projectiles.

 

10 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I cannot understand why the enemies deal that much damage from the very start, I could understand it in the Veil Proxima, but how did anyone think that the damage on Earth was a good idea?

I don't get it either. It's like DE treated all of Railjack as an end game system and forgot to put in an "early game" experience. I mean think back to when you first started Warframe, playing a Rank 0 Excalibur with Rank 0 MK1 guns and no mods in any of it. Did level 1 enemies two-shot you, requiring perfect team coordination of abilities you hadn't unlocked yet? No, none of that was the case, because level 1 Frontier Grineer on Earth are pretty easy and pretty forging, specifically so they offer a safe environment for players to learn the ropes. NONE of the Earth Proxima enemies have any business being this tough, as far as I'm concerned. I get that Railjack is supposed to be for high-level players, but progression shouldn't start this high.

Maybe do what you did to Orb Vallis. Massively neft all of the enemies, then reintroduce Elite version of them for higher-level missions? That way, new players with crap gear have somewhere to play to actually EARN their higher-level gear.

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2 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I get that Railjack is supposed to be for high-level players, but progression shouldn't start this high.

I've also heard that without any Intrinsics the entire Railjack is basically just a flying target.

Leveling up usually provides benefits, not necessary abilities to not instantly explode.

If the damage was lower on Earth the Intrinsics being massive improvements would make sense, but some of them I've heard are all but outright mandatory to not be floundering around like a fish even on the first Earth node.

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