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Getting spammed with knockdowns is not fun.


Olematon.Mies
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Imagine yourself playing a normal grineer mission. Now imagine a bunch of shields, bombards and scorpions come up. Now imagine yourself getting stunlocked to death by getting constantly knocked down and having no way to get up quickly without sacrificing a rather valuable mod slot for something like Handspring, when you could be using something like Streamline or Stretch in it's place.

Why must i sacrifice a mod to fix something that is clearly a missed opportunity for rewarding the player for being good at the game? Why am I forced to play either Rhino or Atlas if i want to avoid the issue of knockdowns entirely without sacrificing mods? And before anyone says "lol just roll or block" let me remind you that not everyone has 360 degree vision like you do.

There are plenty of other 3rd person games that also feature knockdowns in abundance, but do you know what all of them also feature? A fast recovery from them. In fact, let me throw out an example - Phantasy Star Online 2. In this game, just about every enemy has a way to knock down the player. In fact, after a certain point literally every attack from literally every boss will knock the player on their ass. There, the player has 2 options;; #1 do nothing and wait for the character to slowly get up on their own just like in warframe, or #2 press [space] at the right time to get up nearly instantly AND depending on the players class they get very minor heal on top of it, just like the lollipop you got when you were a brave kid while getting vaccinated or visited the dentist. 

In short - The player should have a way recover from knockdowns quickly without the need to sacrifice a mod, and instead should require a well timed input from the player. 

 

Edit - Uthael identified the problem precisely, and pointed out the things that would make for good changes.

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I finally get it... What you guys wanted to say. You want:

When you get knocked down, you can choose to:
- remain down and shoot and deal damage without wasting time on getting up
- transition from that into any rolling animation
- slowly get up while still shooting at the thing you're aiming
- if you get knocked forward/sideways/backwards and pull off a roll/sidespring/backspring while in the knockdown animation before touching the ground, recover instantly
- not touch anything, letting the default kip-up move kick in

If this is true, please edit it into the original post so the people who see the topic 1st time see those suggestions, too.

Consider the post edited.

 

Edit #2 - Since most people do not seem to quite understand the point I am trying to make here...

Knockdowns themselves are not the problem. Or the fact that there are ways to prevent them from happening entirely.

The problem is the lack of control they provide and the lack of interaction to them. You are unlucky enough to get knocked down? Welp, that's all gameplay taken away from you from those 3 - 5 seconds while you lay down on the ground. The time the player spends in any state where they are unable to do anything is time they are not playing the game. And this game is already plagued with wait timers with its equipment - Why should that same waiting timer be a part of the main gameplay loop?

Edited by LewdInspector
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Handspring is insanely powerful.

Knockdowns are very annoying, though far more than Atlas/Rhino can ignore them, and because they are annoying, there are a lot of mods that assist with this- sure footed, power drift, constitution, etc, and handspring for recovery.

I actually find freeze effects more obnoxious, as that stun cannot be handled except by not being hit/status immunity, and is typically pbaoe, not something you can trivially roll clear from.

It really is the trade-off you make- power or flexibility, and is the key to the mod system.

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11 minutes ago, (PS4)Orokin-Legacy said:

Primed Sure Footed or just kill every enemy instantly so you don't have to deal with it.latest?cb=20180725150046

I do agree with this person that something should be done about it, like a maneuver to counter it, not just rely on killing things or using mods.I don't know what the key pressing should be, but a way to give player control; when met with possible face planting; there should be something to press to help counter it some how or help you get up fast. 

I personally don't like being stopped during my fun pew pew sessions, this could help tremendously with keeping the combat fluid. Also, it doesn't completely remove people form face planting, cuz it'd be a recovery thing that would need to happen as soon as you are about to slam on your face.If you miss the press then it's the same like always. (keeps mods working as they should as well, possibly a bit of a nerf on them to compensate just in case someone gets good at those presses.and longer time being knocked down, or something if they miss the press) 

Anyways, not sure exactly how they can handle it, but I do agree that more functionality for players is a good thing, and keeping people in the fight or at least trying to is a good thing.

Edited by theRCB
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4 hours ago, -MElHiOR- said:

Well... Try to use Exilus slot?

Huge capacity size which shares the spot when people need Enemy sense sometimes to preferably have a sizable radar when primed A.Instinct wont cut it. There should honestly be a resistance build up for repeatedly knocking people down or the ability to roll out of it to get some distance or invul frames to prevent mobs spam knockdowning you and then spam shooting you.

Oh plus Drift mods exist and everyone uses those for those free +15% str/range bonuses. Plus most likely will not polarity a exilus due to how many polarity types one has to deal with between drift mods, speed mods, enemy radar mods and so on. Which just further adds to the point that people rather get a A.Forma for Exilus slots first, before they debate that sheet.

Plus before you say something along the lines that you should not be in the group of mobs, need i remind you that some warframes, weapons, especially the good ones, are all about being close range and utterly destroying enemies. Just doesn`t help shield enemies are basically immune to melee damage and guns without punch thru for the most part unless you have some kind of heavy hit or way to cleave thru thar shield., Which also does not help that heavy attacks have a sizable wind up that can screw one over on that.

25 minutes ago, theRCB said:

I do agree with this person that something should be done about it, like a maneuver to counter it, not just rely on killing things or using mods.I don't know what the key pressing should be, but a way to give player control; when met with possible face planting; there should be something to press to help counter it some how or help you get up fast.

Exactly, the fact that we do not have a measure to counter getting knocked down on everything to auto locking grappling hooks, moa yeet jumps, bursas, nox charges and so many other things, is annoying that we do not have the ability to just straight up learn how to roll from a knocked down position, not even a freakin side-ways roll.

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 I personally don't like being stopped during my fun pew pew sessions, this could help tremendously with keeping the combat fluid. Also, it doesn't completely remove people form face planting, cuz it'd be a recovery thing that would need to happen as soon as you are about to slam on your face.If you miss the press then it's the same like always. (keeps mods working as they should as well, possibly a bit of a nerf on them to compensate just in case someone gets good at those presses.and longer time being knocked down, or something if they miss the press) 

If i want to enjoy combat fluidity, i especially do not like getting what is effectively a script like action to shut down my controls for several seconds, especially if i am still vulnerable to damage. Though i do not think D.E. is smart enough to implement a kind of Just Recover like system similar to the Just action systems in Phantasy Star Online 2, which could allow us to roll out of being knocked-down mid-way and then maybe able to spin attack our way out of it.

HECK why do we not have a knock down recovery melee spin action? I have seen loads of action`ie games allow that which let you dispatch nearby enemies to give you breathing room after you get YEETed by enemies. 

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Anyways, not sure exactly how they can handle it, but I do agree that more functionality for players is a good thing, and keeping people in the fight or at least trying to is a good thing.

I pretty much pointing out two ideas and i would think the latter is the easier one for them to cram in, just let us press heavy attack to have our warframe do a break dance like spin with maybe a cooldown indicator to act as a way to restraint us from being able to spam it and be a measure to get out from a pinch.

Honestly besides atmospheric archguns and a few other minor things, Warframe does not really involve cool-down based actions much in combat, granted they could easily ruin it, but i would not mind having a special heavy attack ground slam i can do once every 20 seconds which does extra range compared to a regular heavy attack ground slam, the ability to FREAKING SECOND WIND from bleed out state and of course, `recoveries` i could pull from getting knocked down or grapple hook`d.

Plus it would be a nice DETOUR instead of the rage mode system they want to give to melee where it could maybe be tied to the operator as perma skills we unlock once we max them from the schools (akin to waybounds in a sense) which could provide very useful functionality and QoL improvements to one`s combat.

Edited by Avienas
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4 minutes ago, Avienas said:

Huge capacity size which shares the spot when people need Enemy sense sometimes to preferably have a sizable radar when primed A.Instinct wont cut it. There should honestly be a resistance build up for repeatedly knocking people down or the ability to roll out of it to get some distance or invul frames to prevent mobs spam knockdowning you and then spam shooting you.

Oh plus Drift mods exist and everyone uses those for those free +15% str/range bonuses. Plus most likely will not polarity a exilus due to how many polarity types one has to deal with between drift mods, speed mods, enemy radar mods and so on. Which just further adds to the point that people rather get a A.Forma for Exilus slots first, before they debate that sheet.

Plus before you say something along the lines that you should not be in the group of mobs, need i remind you that some warframes, weapons, especially the good ones, are all about being close range and utterly destroying enemies. Just doesn`t help shield enemies are basically immune to melee damage and guns without punch thru for the most part unless you have some kind of heavy hit or way to cleave thru thar shield., Which also does not help that heavy attacks have a sizable wind up that can screw one over on that.

Exactly, the fact that we do not have a measure to counter getting knocked down on everything to auto locking grappling hooks, moa yeet jumps, bursas, nox charges and so many other things, is annoying that we do not have the ability to just straight up learn how to roll from a knocked down position, not even a freakin side-ways roll.

If i want to enjoy cobat fluid, i especially do not like getting what is effectively a script like action to shut down my controls for several seconds, especially if i am still vulnerable to damage. Though i do not think D.E. is smart enough to implement a kind of Just Recover like system similar to the Just action systems in Phantasy Star Online 2, which could allow us to roll out of being knocked-down mid-way and then maybe able to spin attack our way out of it.

HECK why do we not have a knock down recovery melee spin action? I have seen loads of action`ie games allow that which let you dispatch nearby enemies to give you breathing room after you get YEETed by enemies

I pretty much pointing out two ideas and i sad the latter is the easy one, just let us press heavy attack to have our warframe do a break dance like spin with maybe a cooldown indicator to act as a way to restraint us from being able to spam it and be a measure to get out from a pinch.

Honestly besides atmospheric archguns and a few other minor things, Warframe does not really involve cool-down based actions much in combat, granted they could easily ruin it but i would not mind having a special heavy attack ground slam i can do once every 20 seconds which does extra range compared to a regular heavy attack ground slam, the ability to FREAKING SECOND WIND from bleed out state and of course, `recoveries` i could pull from getting knocked down or grapple hook`d.

I'm too sleepy to read this right now, but I litterally think you just restated what has been stated by me and added some details. I'll look back at it in a second. All I know is, yes warframe does need a way to recover from this stuff, and i dont think just because we have ways of getting around it, doesn't mean warframe is fine without them, more mechanics that help players stay in control is good. 

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Primed Sure Footed is a login reward which I'm yet to reach. From what I know, the player performs a blocking animation instead of being knocked down. You still can't attack. There are two differences between that and Handspring:
1) with Handspring, you're stationary for a short time
2) Primed Sure Footed is a D-slot with a drain of 16.
Therefore, I do have Handspring equipped on my Volt (main) that runs anything from arbitrations to above.

Also, from my experience, rolling prevents knockdowns. Anything that causes a knockdown is slow. Use your senses to gain awareness of your surroundings. For practice, try rolling through those circles enemies make to knock you down.

@Avienas - Shield enemies are slow. Flank em. Or roll. If shield enemies are fast, don't play with a speedva.
Better yet, don't melee them at all. Shoot them in the head through the hole in their shield (for their eyes). Or jump and shoot.

If you've done the questline, holding crouch and spamming 5 gets you out of many tricky situations. That's the action for gaining "breathing room".

37 minutes ago, Avienas said:

the ability to FREAKING SECOND WIND from bleed out state

Hold X. Usable several times in case you're getting owned hard. Some random maxed out arcanes to have 2 more. If you need even more than that, the mission is too hard for your gear or skill level anyway.

 

If all else fails - Rolling Guard. 3 sec of invulnerability, 7 sec cooldown. Unsure if the cooldown starts right away or only after invulnerability. Either way, it's OP.

If you need to remove an offensive mod, congratulations! You've reached the point of finally having a choice.

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5 hours ago, Uthael said:

Primed Sure Footed is a login reward which I'm yet to reach. From what I know, the player performs a blocking animation instead of being knocked down. You still can't attack. There are two differences between that and Handspring:
1) with Handspring, you're stationary for a short time
2) Primed Sure Footed is a D-slot with a drain of 16.
Therefore, I do have Handspring equipped on my Volt (main) that runs anything from arbitrations to above.

The issue is we never have enough build space for utility. In most cases for other games that i know went close to these kinds of systems they had multiple pools of skills we select from and could not just like pick them all from a single pool, we had slots for one of them and slots for others. Because yes we can just screw the very notion of using warframe powers in general, which very few warframes in general can work that way and i do not like gutting myself of one gameplay function just for some utility, unless its a highly mandatory thing like profit taker fight.

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Also, from my experience, rolling prevents knockdowns. Anything that causes a knockdown is slow. Use your senses to gain awareness of your surroundings. For practice, try rolling through those circles enemies make to knock you down.

@Avienas - Shield enemies are slow. Flank em. Or roll. If shield enemies are fast, don't play with a speedva.
Better yet, don't melee them at all. Shoot them in the head through the hole in their shield (for their eyes). Or jump and shoot.

Not everyone plays PC where you could have perfect accuracy at micro second capability with mouseplay, Plus that is not really a slit to shoot thru unless d.e. just left that interaction present. Plus you are going to have to do some crazy overhaul on your controls and sensitivity settings to be playing with snap 180 degree motion which most are likely not able to play that much without somehow getting disoriented from it. Warframe is not one of those polished games with all the ridiculous eye-blinding elements and bugs that can be present, compared to games that had a much higher budget to work with. Never the less, i rarely run into speedva`s these days and you do not really get much of a bonus on shooting a enemy from the side or back unless its a bursa. Plus your dealing with mobs of enemies, not some enemy you can go lee-roy with and stylistically execute, so taking advantage of `flanking` is not going to work when even though a shielded enemy is soaking the strikes, i still am cleaving about 5 other enemies mobbing me.

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If you've done the questline, holding crouch and spamming 5 gets you out of many tricky situations. That's the action for gaining "breathing room".

Clearly i should of remembered to mention that i am a CONSOLE player since i assume when you said 5, you meant a roll button and i do not consider using roll as a effective measure to get out of dodge when i would rather do a bullet jump instead and do a ground slam to just scatter the mobs, Its when too many are rushing you and your busy dealing with some of them to get them all that gets annoying.

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Hold X. Usable several times in case you're getting owned hard. Some random maxed out arcanes to have 2 more. If you need even more than that, the mission is too hard for your gear or skill level anyway.

The point is I dont like suicide since its a waste of energy and i consider it a fall back measure to cheese thru things (Remember how you used to have to SPEND money to get extra revives?), Because unless i die to the most ridiculous of things like a bombard somehow sniping me from 20 meters across the map, i usually tend to treat it as if i get YEET`d near instaneously by a mob, its usually a better idea to extract at the next op, since i clearly am not cleaving out the mobs fast enough and likely either my team mates are not helping much, they decided to leave early cause they are too lazy to chase loot/affinity in deeper rounds or they did something stupid like burn revives instead of waiting to be revived and now someone is stuck being the only one alive, having to protect a defense target.

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If all else fails - Rolling Guard. 3 sec of invulnerability, 7 sec cooldown. Unsure if the cooldown starts right away or only after invulnerability. Either way, it's OP.

If you need to remove an offensive mod, congratulations! You've reached the point of finally having a choice.

Again did you get the point of not enough room for utility functions? Rolling Guard falls in that category, all it does is a semi-cheese measure to skip thru things and usually most would rather not trade a augur reach/message/secrets for something like that, if they normally can just blow up all the mobs before they can get that clustered. While people who actually do super high level content usually make sure to have a coordinated group for most SANE individuals so they got someone covering massive cc while another is doing the massive mob clearing and so on.

Point n case still stands is that we should have a innate knockdown recovery then having to get another mod to add to the pile of mods we RARELY put into some SPECIFIC frames who literally gets Negligible benefit to speccing for thar abilities, compared to just not using them and only using the board for tanking and `utility abilities`.

Just like how d.e. has left plenty of content without polish, the mod bench and abilities warframes should have need to get some proper polish also, then be stuck in half hap-hazard states that for the most part, have been left unchanged except some `additions` which does not change much at all, to the core itself of the customization.

Edited by Avienas
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I honestly don't see what gameplay there is to applying hard CC to players in Warframe, generally: in a game where one of the main selling points is high agency and fluid, rapid movement, having control of one's frame stopped entirely is a terrible and jarring feeling even in an otherwise safe environment. When one adds in enemies and scaling, to the point where the player ends up getting stun-locked via excessive staggers or knockdowns, or killed in the space of a single instance of hard CC, those mechanics go from annoying to severely frustrating, particularly when they're given out excessively to certain enemies to artificially inflate difficulty. This isn't a valid challenge to build against, this is an actual gameplay problem that should be solved via changes in design, namely a removal to knockdowns and staggers, not swept under the rug via frequently undesirable workarounds.

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Ok... HOW do you increase the difficulty?

Enemy HP ain't a problem and with the weapons and abilities at our disposal, it will never be.

Even though it has some bugs, AI is decent. Especially considering it has to run en-masse.

Healing from 1% to full can be done in a second, on any frame, with right gear. Optionally, if you have a healer in your party.
Damage reduction is available in several types and they stack. But no matter how squishy/tanky your Warframe is, at SOME point, you'll go from not being one-shotted (and getting insta-healed) to dying to a stray bullet.
As I've previously stated, knockdowns are avoidable and predictable. I suggested rolling and got countered with "console can't roll, we use bullet-jump". Well, if you're always in the air, you're really hard to hit and see the Shield Lancer's heads quite well. MOAs do only ground knockdowns. Well, at least 'til you end up in a Corpus mission where levels are in X00's and spam becomes uncontrollable. But HOW do you increase the difficulty if not with those? Please, propose precise changes.

If going on an endless, make sure you make that "sane" group with CC spam. Alternatively, Oberon's 2 and Titania's 1 (there might be more) give status immunity to all allies in the radius. This includes knockdowns.

If it works for Tenno the same way it works for enemies, the Ancient Healer Specter is a huge damage reduction, some healing and probably also status immunity to anyone in the radius. They're cheap, renewable and any frame can drop it. Tag it with a waypoint to see your distance from it and stay in its aura. The tradeoff is that it has its own mind.

 

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I finally get it... What you guys wanted to say. You want:

When you get knocked down, you can choose to:
- remain down and shoot and deal damage without wasting time on getting up
- transition from that into any rolling animation
- slowly get up while still shooting at the thing you're aiming
- if you get knocked forward/sideways/backwards and pull off a roll/sidespring/backspring while in the knockdown animation before touching the ground, recover instantly
- not touch anything, letting the default kip-up move kick in

If this is true, please edit it into the original post so the people who see the topic 1st time see those suggestions, too.

 

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1 hour ago, Uthael said:

I finally get it... What you guys wanted to say. You want:

When you get knocked down, you can choose to:
- remain down and shoot and deal damage without wasting time on getting up
- transition from that into any rolling animation
- slowly get up while still shooting at the thing you're aiming
- if you get knocked forward/sideways/backwards and pull off a roll/sidespring/backspring while in the knockdown animation before touching the ground, recover instantly
- not touch anything, letting the default kip-up move kick in

If this is true, please edit it into the original post so the people who see the topic 1st time see those suggestions, too.

 

Glad you finally got it. The problem is not the fact that knockdowns exist - the problem is that there is literally no player interaction to them. I will edit the OP with this quote.

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They desperately need to include some kind of internal cooldown on a player that makes it so they can't be chained with those abilities. Like, knock you down once, sure... it'll happen. But then you're ready for it to happen. If someone tries the same thing again, why would it work?

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2 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

They desperately need to include some kind of internal cooldown on a player that makes it so they can't be chained with those abilities. Like, knock you down once, sure... it'll happen. But then you're ready for it to happen. If someone tries the same thing again, why would it work?

ecause they have you pinned and are not letting you get up xD

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My lazy ways just shrugged on using COnstitution + Handspring for "Immortal" setups, and more recently, Exilus with Prime Sure Footed. 

But I understand the desire to reward quick reflexes to negate knowckdowns. 

Because knockdowns are spammed currently, and as is the nature of a trash mob murder simulator like Warframe, enemies will spam attacks anyway. 

I would like to see the ability of countering  knockdowns with quick moves that will make your character roll and stand up again.

Also, add bullet timing while falling  when being knocked down as a possible player choice, and a moddable one for additiional damage/time. 

Edited by BrazilianJoe
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On 2019-12-15 at 10:38 AM, LewdInspector said:

Imagine yourself playing a normal grineer mission. Now imagine a bunch of shields, bombards and scorpions come up. Now imagine yourself getting stunlocked to death by getting constantly knocked down and having no way to get up quickly without sacrificing a rather valuable mod slot for something like Handspring, when you could be using something like Streamline or Stretch in it's place.

Why must i sacrifice a mod to fix something that is clearly a missed opportunity for rewarding the player for being good at the game? Why am I forced to play either Rhino or Atlas if i want to avoid the issue of knockdowns entirely without sacrificing mods? And before anyone says "lol just roll or block" let me remind you that not everyone has 360 degree vision like you do.

There are plenty of other 3rd person games that also feature knockdowns in abundance, but do you know what all of them also feature? A fast recovery from them. In fact, let me throw out an example - Phantasy Star Online 2. In this game, just about every enemy has a way to knock down the player. In fact, after a certain point literally every attack from literally every boss will knock the player on their ass. There, the player has 2 options;; #1 do nothing and wait for the character to slowly get up on their own just like in warframe, or #2 press [space] at the right time to get up nearly instantly AND depending on the players class they get very minor heal on top of it, just like the lollipop you got when you were a brave kid while getting vaccinated or visited the dentist. 

In short - The player should have a way recover from knockdowns quickly without the need to sacrifice a mod, and instead should require a well timed input from the player. 

 

Edit - Uthael identified the problem precisely, and pointed out the things that would make for good changes.

Consider the post edited.

So... Vaykor Sydon time? 

Sounds like Vaykor Sydon time, to me. 

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