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Why I believe Railjack won't last in the current state...


Otakuwolf
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...Because it relies way too much on people fulfilling very specific roles to avoid a total loss.

I apologize in advance if this may sound a bit like a rant but I've seen and experienced this in other games, and is really a thing I'm sick to see and want to point out.

I mean it when I say that playing the current Railjack to me feels like playing a co-op version of Overwatch, a game where everybody MUST play a certain role at a certain time but nobody wants to and everybody only want to do one and only one thing: shoot stuff.

Like, I get it, a ship needs maintenhance and repairs, but the problem is that unlike the standard game in which you can play as a healer and still kill baddies, if you are inside the railjack you can only: A) pilot the ship, B) use a side turret and repair stuff when needed... and here comes the problem, there is ALWAYS something that needs to be repaired, there is ALWAYS some occasional group of shmucks on foot to interrupt you from doing what you're doing and slow you down.

Sure, other "gamemodes" like Tridolon hunting require people do fulfill certain tasks, but there is a difference with railjack: outside what you do with your powers, everybody is shooting the thing dead, while in Railjack somebody is having fun driving and shooting like an actual 3D shooter, somebody has the "poor man" version of that with the turret (which is still fun but depends on the pilot not being drunk), somebody is outside playing the 3D shooter with the archwing, and one last person is costantly fixing stuff because the ship is made of toilet paper and nobody wants to take turns.

Obviousely the pilot is already busy moving the ship so, who goes to repair ? The other guys aboard the ship, but too bad nobody cares since everybody want to shoot with the turrets or go archwing outside, so what are you gonna do ? Either A) Spend your time in complete frustration and boredom babysitting the ship nonstop because nobody else cares, or B) mind your own buisness and lose because nobody else wants to bother with it.

"Oh but if you upgrade your skills you can fix stuff remotely and..." sorry but that is not the point, what I'm trying to say is "Roles and tasks should not be forced on people", that's just a recipe for disaster because on top of getting people bored and tired on it's own it also breeds toxicity, and like in Overwatch and other heavily team reliant games it all starts with people being supposed to do things they don't want to.

So, how could this be fixed ?

For one thing, those Railjack ships have something breaking every 5 seconds, and that's just laughable. Maybe it depends on the pilot too but a supposely "super advanced top-notch tecnology" ship shouldn't break that easy. Maybe make hull ruptures and other hazards pop up on set damage thresholds, give it time before something breaks so those inside can actually enjoy some shooting too.

Another thing would be to assign specific roles to the crew components, like the "Role queue" in some team games, so everybody can decide what they want to play beforehand and not be forced into something they don't like.

Also incentivize to play certain roles, maybe fixing the ship gives certain bonuses at the end of the match and using the archwing gives others, or depending on the task you played the most you get a specific resource bonus, so if you need a specific resource over another you are incentivized to either repair more or use the turrets more or pilot more, etc.

It would be also nice to maybe assign a different marker to particularly dangerous hazards like missiles and ramsleds, so we can counter those more efficently than "oh, there are missiles coming... from where ? Errrr...". I mean, did anybody ever play 3D aerial shooters like Everspace, Descent, or even Ace Combat ? Those always have some kind of marker or a bare minimum of "incoming attack" alert besides the game just making noise about it.

Atm I don't feel like playing Railjack anymore until Solo play comes up, but I hope somebody can understand my points and maybe suggest a better solution that is not just "get your own crew".

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18 minutes ago, Otakuwolf said:

Obviousely the pilot is already busy moving the ship so, who goes to repair ? The other guys aboard the ship, but too bad nobody cares since everybody want to shoot with the turrets or go archwing outside, so what are you gonna do ?

Me want to do it. 99% of the time I only go archwing when mission done to loot. Rest of the time my 3 primary tasks are kill invaders , repair and craft supply. Im the engineer not the warrior no need for me to go rambo. Our pilot got 2 primary things he do pilot and artilery (with me temporay go pilot). The 2 otheres are free to do what they want. 

Edited by Emolition
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You can do a lot in a minute, and currently it's far more efficient to let critical breaches run down to <10 seconds. You don't take extra damage in that time, so you're basically invulnerable, and when you actually repair the breach you get 'actual' invulnerability.

Just keep an eye on the timer, go out and shoot stuff, and that's it. I do not understand all the constant whining about repairs and whatnot 'taking up all the time'. Deal with it, it's not hard.

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14 minutes ago, Otakuwolf said:

I mean it when I say that playing the current Railjack to me feels like playing a co-op version of Overwatch, a game where everybody MUST play a certain role at a certain time but nobody wants to and everybody only want to do one and only one thing: shoot stuff.

Yup. Railjack feels like Overwatch at its very worst. A large percentage of Railjack lobbies I join have the old Overwatch issue of "5 DPS and me," where everyone's outside in their Archwings pretending to help and I'm left having to pilot, repair and restock the ship by myself. Even when players are good-natured and do want to tackle the actual objective tasks, all too often we all end up trying to do the same thing. Hull breach? Three players abandon their posts and go repair it, then three players go forge more Omni goo, then three players go try to man the turrets, then a Crew Ship is spotted and three players go try to use the Archwing Catapult... Then we all look at each other, sit on the turrets... Then a fire breaks out and nobody gets it, because we all assume someone else will. Railjack is massively coordination-heavy while giving us very bare-bones coordination tools.

I had a suggestion in my grab bag of Railjack suggestions for easier ways to communicate, basically using the Tactical menu to issue orders to yourself so other people know what you're doing and put orders up with the mission objectives, but that's only part of it. Another part is matchmaking. I would argue that at this point in Overwatch's lifespan, Blizzard have managed to solve a lot of the teaming issues simply by instituting a Role Queue. Every team consists of 2 Tanks, 2 DPS and 2 Healers, you choose your role before you queue. This way, a team is always at least fundamentally balanced, even if the players still suck and don't do their jobs. It's still a lot better than "5 DPS and me." Warframe would greatly benefit from a similar role queue, where a ship would require at minimum a pilot, a gunner and an engineer + 1 "flex." Unfortunately, I don't think Warframe has the Railjack playerbase to support this. Even Overwatch, as popular as it is, ended up with a 10-minute queue time for DPS because so many people wanted to play that... And that's a game where matchmaking is not map-specific. Imagine trying to play a match of Warframe, there are 3 squads on the node you want. How likely are you to get a game in a timely manner?

At the very least, though, I wish we had the option of matchmaking until we get a crew full crew, rather than starting the mission alone and having to hope fighters don't find me before people join - if they ever do. Or if a full crew is too much (which it shouldn't be - that's what Railjack is designed for), then at least the ability to matchmake until the game finds me a couple of other people.

 

I don't think the role situation is as bad as you're making it out to be, though. There are plenty of people who are perfectly happy fighting boarders, putting out fires and crafting more spray bottles. Hell, I'm one of 'em - I used to main Engineering in Star Trek: Bridge Crew. You know - the console which doesn't see out? 🙂 I've run into plenty of people who will get right on this and handle it for the entire game. The problem is actually FINDING these people. Right now, Warframe matchmaking is a crapshoot. Will you be matched with a team-mate who wants to play engineer? Will you be matched with a team-mate who'll flex and play Engineer? Or will you be matched with three Yahoos who will abandon ship and never look back? This is why designing team-only content is such a double-edged sword. Not only are you banking on there being enough interest to sustain the team requirement (and I'm already seeing interest drop massively after just a couple of days), but you're also forcing players into the cesspit of public matchmaking. Unless you craft strict safeguards, you all but guarantee everyone's experience is going to be rotten half of the time.

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33 minutes ago, Otakuwolf said:

people

This is the only root cause of everyone's problem. It isn't the Railjack and the associated missions.

No one wants to do what they're told to do, or what they have to do. Squads require coordination.

If you guys are having problems now, imagine how its going to be when Squad-Link becomes a thing.

Edited by Uhkretor
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Guess you better wait for 2020 when they work on the solo functionality for railjack, or you know go premade. 

I've been playing a lot with my clan they have me pilot so they can use the rank 2 gunner skill which gives 360 vision. Our fourth tends our fires and gear because they seem to enjoy that. If a crew ship or other objective shows up a gunner hops off and deals with it. Different jobs appeal to different people but pubbies are random you are only very rarely going to get a match for each role 

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4 часа назад, Otakuwolf сказал:

which is still fun but depends on the pilot not being drunk

lvl 2 artillery perk says hi

 

And I know this may sound harsh, but I personally don't even expect any person I'm matched with to have any level of competence even in normal mission regardless of their frames or MR. I saw MR27 people being able to die as inaros on arbitration survival on minute 2, I've seen loki not using invis and trying to melee lvl 90+ bombards with apparently unmodded weapons, I've seen eidolon chroma complaining trinity is preventing him from stacking his vex, I've seen a lot. That's for ancient content that people are familiar with, railjack is new. You yourself probably wasn't a god tier warframe player on your first day.

Co-op means cooperation, talking to people, communicating ffs. I play with my clan and we are successfully doing missions with a crew of 2 or 3. That's what clans are supposedly are for - to connect people and play together, not for "join clan, need labs" and just bragging about how many people are in clan's roster. But I digress. Recruiting chat can help finding a perfectly stacked group with all the roles, use it, speak to people, do something other than "press the lfg button to get easy rewards" for a change.

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10 hours ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

I just chalk it up to first week jitters, I saw these same complaints for Eidolon hunting, and a couple years later most PUGs have it down to a science on what to do and when...without even typing GET THE LURES angrily like fifty times...

If ya bloody paid attention, alot of this crap has gone on for most previous content, Eidolon hunting, orb mother fights and even bounties and before that just being the chain of examples where they botched elements, patched it and left it in a sub-par state afterwards, repeating the process and never looking back to re-address them for the most part less its to shove some new thing into it, instead of fixing up the content itself. Plus it did not take long for people to figure out you could effectively solo cheese eidolons(yes including the tridolons, not just the pre-shrine era dons), way before the introduction of fortuna arcanes/amp parts and even duo or trio groups were just as fine since Volt could still apply shock trooper to allies. For cripes sakes its still possible to take the old classic way of doing it and just solo eidolons as trinity. May not get multiple tridolons unless your spec`d properly, but its a possible thing todo. Plus again, a single person could do all the tasks and manage them at once, anyone extra who came along was just to lessen the burden by covering particular things.

Which i am still glad harrows for blocking screams is now the `nooblet` method since you just need a k-drive with Quick escape these days. Which is not that hard to obtain at all. Clearly a unintended interaction D.E. brought to themselves with putting in a I-frame mod on a deployable. Which pretty much lets you have another support frame or another damage buffer to secure breaking lich limbs, though honestly i`d rather a wisp over a damage harrow to have less people getting downed and another person to fetch moar lures to speed things along.

Railjack is a chonky beast who requires multiple attention to many elements, it should of been day 1 that people could have oh i donno, THE FREAKING CEPHALONS who could man the side-turrets, since they don`t need to know rocket science to do that or be given commands via the host`s tactical wheel that could of been added next to the emote/gear wheel, to take extra resources looted past a threshold to automatically turn them into consumables people would pick up to restock ammo for various goods.

Heck lets not even get started on the fact why the railjack can`t have on-board turrets or defense systems designed to oust intruders or inhibit them for a minute or three so one of the 4 stoodges board can handle it. Clearly that was going to be part of the commander skill tree where we likely can assign our kuva liches to be on guard duty, But if they are not as ridiculously op as they were when we got mauled by them when they were rank 5, then they aren`t going to be that good at smacking down intruders, especially if they somehow magically lost the ability to use thar kuva lich powers, which might get written off that they got lost when we converted them.

Anyway, Railjack is ultimately Sea of Thieves but in space(aka another fine example of D.E. taking a concept from another game and half-arsing it), where everything has to be manage by a crew of players and its basically never gave much thought to let us have a more small group friendly approach to things. Never less, except the meme ability one of the trees get later where we get to pinch warframe abilities from eachother to dump it wherever we want on the ship (and likely structures too i hope), It makes literally no sense we did not get a simple customization system on the railjack customization, to establish basic npcs that would automatically act as basic security against invaders(since we got specters like that remember? Able to take over turret controls when none of the players are manning them and would do the repair work at a more reduced rate, but would atleast take care of low-mid level hazards or stall the dangerous hazards long enough for us to weld the crashes shut with void space magic memes).

 

As a console player, i kind of expected these hiccups to occur especially when i started seeing the actual gameplay, plus the size of the ship, in addition to the ship dealing pathetic damage compared to archguns, seriously railjacks should be able to have MUCH higher DPS vs fully modded archguns since they are some space-ship sized cannons, not some grineer gatling gun, things should be made to wreck ships, not shoot things even weaker then lemons, Plus do not even get me started on how much gripe i am hearing about the projectile changes utterly causing headaches to archwing gameplay, Thing needs the ability to have a lead on lock-on for archguns after you have a reticle close to a enemy for a second or something. Going to be interesting to see how many hotfixes D.E. gets shipped out before once again shipping only half the fixes and the update to us on console, with suddenly the most critical issues get resolved in the hotfixes right after that certification, just like with kuva liches...namely the Crimson branch.

 

Edited by Avienas
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Railjack was out on Friday. This is Monday.  Depending on time zones, this is like day 3 to 4 of Railjack, even with all the bugs or possibly host issues or language barriers etc., I am already seeing a better experience with public games. Aside from those who already rushed to grind it to completion (as above poster talks about), the more casual pace players are also quite good now. Generally failing missions a lot less, everyone has gotten into the swing of things etc. Headless chicken runs used to be 80% of the time, now it's down to 20% of public games.

People know how to put out fires and seal hull breaches, and to not hit "refine" at the forge in the middle of mission. People know how to fly out of the archwing to collect resources and knock out the crew ship. Captains are quite nice and tend to accommodate requests from their random crew to return to drydock. Some offer free advice, which is nice. I also notice people giving each other the benefit of doubt and entrusting such and such to know what to do as gunner or pilot or engineer, while at the same time also willing trade roles on the fly, even without saying a word, if they notice any particular situation going out of hand (e.g tenno just exited the ship to perhaps go kill the crew ship but at that same moment a hull breach occurs), they leave their position and take on additional roles as needed. And very rarely do I see any that berate another player for mission fails. Only minor issue with some captain's flying styles is that they tend to stay in one position, probably trying to shoot stuff with the front cannons, instead of moving around and so the loot flow is halted, which may affect Revolite crafting flow, but again - that's where the gunners and the engineer/errand dude pick up the slack and go on away missions.  

When the command intrinsic comes, and when we start being able to complement our ships with AI crew, this experience will just become even smoother.

Edited by Xepthrichros
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18 hours ago, Otakuwolf said:

...Because it relies way too much on people fulfilling very specific roles to avoid a total loss.

I disagree. I feel like there's only two real roles.

Home team and away team.

29 minutes ago, ciTiger said:

Repairing feels like a job, I already do that during the week and get paid for it...

DE play your own game please so you know what every other player feels.

It's not every player that feels this. I just spent 4 hours running Railjack. One guy stuck with me the whole way who spent the entire time fighting fires, repairing, forging, and fighting boarding parties. Chatted with them about it, and they admitted to loving a support role, including in MMOs. There was one point we had a Wukong, and they used the tactical screen to give themselves a bodyguard with the celestial twin - was VERY handy!

Don't speak for everyone. Just you.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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28 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

I disagree. I feel like there's only two real roles.

Home team and away team.

It's not every player that feels this. I just spent 4 hours running Railjack. One guy stuck with me the whole way who spent the entire time fighting fires, repairing, forging, and fighting boarding parties. Chatted with them about it, and they admitted to loving a support role, including in MMOs. There was one point we had a Wukong, and they used the tactical screen to give themselves a bodyguard with the celestial twin - was VERY handy!

Don't speak for everyone. Just you.

I'm glad at least someone likes to work without getting paid.

Did he also know he was missing on loot (resources and precious archwing mods?

 Props to him, my statement still stands.

I levelled engineering to do it with my friends and regret it greatly!

 

Edited by ciTiger
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31 minutes ago, ciTiger said:

Did he also know he was missing on loot (resources and precious archwing mods?

That's something they desperately need to address. Pretty sure everybody gets all the resources - I was picking up Pustrels with Archwing when we needed more, and it allowed him to make more revolite. I think the Railjack crew has a shared resource pool until we use the forge to refine them, which drops all the resources into each player's inventory.

Frankly, for Railjack, it feels like they need to make it so when enemies drop Avionics or mods or salvaged gear to repair, we just get them, rather than having to pick them up. But I have noticed that when one person picks up Avionics or Railjack gear, all players get it.

31 minutes ago, ciTiger said:

I'm glad at least someone likes to work without getting paid.

To be fair, you still get paid the mission rewards, and you still get all the resources picked up.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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10 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

That's something they desperately need to address. Pretty sure everybody gets all the resources - I was picking up Pustrels with Archwing when we needed more, and it allowed him to make more revolite. I think the Railjack crew has a shared resource pool until we use the forge to refine them, which drops all the resources into each player's inventory.

Frankly, for Railjack, it feels like they need to make it so when enemies drop Avionics or mods or salvaged gear to repair, we just get them, rather than having to pick them up. But I have noticed that when one person picks up Avionics or Railjack gear, all players get it.

To be fair, you still get paid the mission rewards, and you still get all the resources picked up.

Did you read the post? You don't get resources/mods/avionics or ANY drop at all that is insides ships/buildings etc, unless you go and pick them YOURSELF it's not shared like the drops in space!

As for the getting paid I don't think you understood what I meant by not getting paid, as in its not fun its work/chore!

Try doing the same thing going back and forth in the ship for hours and then get back to me. I for one won't be doing engineering anymore because after 8 hours I m burned out (and yes In the meanwhile I piloted the ship and did the rest, that's how I found out about all the loot I lost...)

Cheers.

Edited by ciTiger
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48 minutes ago, ciTiger said:

as in its not fun its work/chore!

Subjective.

What you think is fun might be boring to other people and vice versa.

Do you like sports? Because I don't.
Do you like to read books? Because I do.
Anime?
Cats?
Dogs?

Same thing. Different people like different things, and you need to stop speaking for other people who are not you.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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18 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Subjective.

What you think is fun might be boring to other people and vice versa.

Do you like sports? Because I don't.
Do you like to read books? Because I do.
Anime?
Cats?
Dogs?

Same thing. Different people like different things, and you need to stop speaking for other people who are not you.

I hope a lot of people feel like engineering in it's current state is fun cause you need someone always on it. LOL

My crew is gonna need a new engineer, let me know if you want the spot. 🙂

Edited by ciTiger
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34 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Subjective.

What you think is fun might be boring to other people and vice versa.

Do you like sports? Because I don't.
Do you like to read books? Because I do.
Anime?
Cats?
Dogs?

Same thing. Different people like different things, and you need to stop speaking for other people who are not you.

Lets see, everyone `came` to warframe to enjoy playing a looter shooter as a super awesome space ninja, not play micro-manager pseudo space flight simulator but instead of simply controlling the ship with a few simple controls and able to flick various actions active and addressing issues that might occur on your ship, instead, we are basically playing (or going to for console players like me) in some kind of environment that reminds me of being in some kind of GMod type of game where we are some half-life character look alike and the game-play feels more like a patch-work version of half life someone made as a mechanics show off to basically see how far they can stretch it from the 3rd-person game base, by effectively minimizing us doing super awesome space ninja stuff and doing the tedious stuff because we somehow have not learned to smack the Engineers & Cephalon Cy to not prioritize putting security and defense systems in place to deal with intruders and fire hazards.

Where pretty much a single grineer ram-sledge can easily dab right into our ship like its made of paper mache and thar guns can easily cause our ship to suddenly catch fire, like the ship is magically allergic to grineer boolets, yet likely can somehow what i assume would be, can bounce ramsleds after they punctured the ship`s hull, can somehow magically repair itself back. Which i would think we would just get heavy damage and the ramsleds would bounce off and the grineer have to actually aim at the doors to attach themselves and hack the consoles to `invade`, which could be a nice excuse to where the grineer are forced to enter a corridor like section of the ship where plenty of deterrent traps could be left there to keep them busy so they cant instantly run to the most important of things and utterly screw things over. 

Though it would definitely not be nice if certain parts of the ship can cause instant catastrophic failure were not safe-guarded somehow by atleast thick armor plating while the ship is in motion, so boarding parties can`t shoot it, just like how i would assume all the personnel that should be present on the ship, i would like to assume somehow yeet`d into some safe room, leaving the tenno to handle everything, where all they do is all the maitience work in flight and repair the huge damage bits in-between missions, yet cant pick up a braton and start popping grineer heads???

Of course i guess it would just be even more ridiculous having to manage a limited crew of 12-20 people who could die mid-mission, like some disposable fodder we have to keep replacing so they can take care of all the micro-managing bits that tenno are clearly too dumb to handle, that or cephalon cy is magically doing all the critical repairs via flying nanites or something like that, but he cant do them during a mission cause the nanites are too scared of action going on inside or near the ship.

 

Anyway the point is people came to warframe to enjoy a game, not play multiple different types of things that likely never have a completely sealed up design so its in a perfect closed loop to enjoy and likely never needs to get addressed except maybe update loot tables and small bug fix checks. Warframe pretty much has alot of crumbling fractured loops, which plenty of them had potential to extend that space ninja awesome enjoyments but instead we get bogged down by tedious designs that either have next-to-ridiculous drop rates or basically can only be managed by a ridiculously active niche group of players who clearly dont have a life when they can go 50+ waves or more and plan to go 200 or so waves in kuva-variant mission tileset.

Plus people can always go to a different game if they want to enjoy that looter shooter feel, just some are stuck with stockholm syndrome, really want to stay dedicated to warframe despite it getting squandered on bad decision making and clearly D.E. is not taking much notice now that Destiny 2 is also free to play with plenty of other titles, especially free to play ones like Phantasy Star Online 2, going to enjoy getting some major spotlight-age in Spring 2020 and going to get compared to both games since its a, Space Looter Game where you play as a special task force army of sorts that fly thousands of ships across the sea of space to bring peace by defeating dangerous threats and even gain some super crazy animu tier level abilities between various classes you can also sub-job with, super special attacks including able to turn into titan like form which story-wise is based on the powers of some of the early antagonists you fought in the earlier `episodes`, plus even get to ride in mechas that let you mow down waves of enemies, take on sky-scraper sized foes and even fly in space fighting enemies in a semi-gundam like fashion for one particular mission(s).

Granted i guess i am rambling a tad about how much i `really` enjoy PSO2, despite the fact it has been a japan exclusive for nearly 8 years, but i rather not jump thru the loops of setting up my PC to run it again, especially since its been a few years since i last played it, yet can just watch the new content of later episodes and do a nice comparison of it with other games like Destiny 2 and Warframe to wonder why they cant take similar approaches on certain things. Not like i am asking them to redesign the gameplay, just more along the lines if something like warframe expands its gameplay, why it cant be in such a polish state which does not make me feel like im `island stranded` from regular gameplay, yet still looks like i am stuck with a mix of paultry rewards and a good half of it just being what i will be using to build my ship up once it comes to console, so i can be in a decent state to not instant die fast if not everyone i recruited for the mission, arent doing stupid things. 

Speakng of which, shouldnt railjack allow us to have up to 6 to 8 players instead because of all the freaking micro-managing we are having to pull?

Edited by Avienas
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23 hours ago, Otakuwolf said:

feels like playing a co-op version of Overwatch

THAT was my thought when I played Railjack mission in the last 2 days... its just completly random. Yes I have a clan and yes I can find people but come on. I just want to hop in a mission and play. Not find a group for 10 minutes or longer... I also miss the WARFRAME aspect of the game. How about caring about the CORE GAME? Thats why we are here to begin with!

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6 hours ago, Avienas said:

Lets see, everyone `came` to warframe to

Stop speaking for everyone. Your entire rant was YOUR experience and opinion. Talking to people in-game, the opinion you and others have on the forum is vocal minority.

6 hours ago, Avienas said:

shouldnt railjack allow us to have up to 6 to 8 players

There simply isn't that much to do. Right now 4 people is enough that one extra person would result in someone idling AFK without anything left to do. Unless you force them to pilot every single crewship that spawns in, which is stupid.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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