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Failure state and losing all ressource should be removed.


(PSN)Stealth_Cobra
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I know it's been a thing for years, but can you guys please consider removing this.

If a player spends 30+ minutes in a mission, only to fail it due to whatever reason, shouldn't we at least get to keep the stuff we looted during the mission ?

This is especially annoying now that we have railjack, a gamemode where you can enter a 60 second fail state timer out of nowhere when most of the crew is out of the ship , or if the guy that was tending the ship suddenly doesn't fix the damage in time. (which often happens because hey, that guy suddently decides he wants to briefly do something more fun, yet doesn't brief the rest of the team he's no longer doing his job).

Honestly, these fail states add nothing good to the game.

  1.  They discourage players from staying longer in endless missions, cause they don't want to lose everything they got. I swear I've only played two groups in month that went above 30 minutes in survival missions.... Everyone is scared of failure or a bad host migration.
  2.  They create frustrations whenever you get into a mission scenario where the HP of a terminal or defense target is ridiculously low and you don't have good CC frames and it gets destroyed in seconds (I'm thinking at you , Lvl 110+ Kuva Lich missions !)
  3. In Railjack, they slow down initial progression, as whenever a player fails a mission due to the ship being as tanky as an unmodded banshee, players get NOTHING and lose all the stuff they got that could have helped improve their railjacks.
  4.  Since the game is notoriously buggy, often the failure isn't even the player's fault, yet you lose everyhing. Host migration failures, being stuck in walls, slow host migrations where when you finally get the new host, the defense target is near dead or the survival oxygen depleted 20% during host migration), or more classic stuff like noobs screwing up a spy mission or a rescue mission.
  5. There's also the classic "Fireteam that decides to leave the endless mission two seconds before the timer ends", leaving a lone tenno stuck in a mission designed for four players and often failing since well, he can't necessarily protect or keep a whole interception map on lockdown solo out of nowhere, leaving the player with nothing to show for his time.

Overall, losing ressources only leads to frustration. I shut down Warframe quite a few times out of anger after losing an hour of progression because of a bug or other stupid problem.

If I spend half an hour tackling a tough railjack mission, in the process gathering tons of cool upgrades, mods and ressource, last thing I was is to get a hull breach while I'm infiltrating a base and too far to return to the ship, leading to losing everything.

Edited by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra
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Just now, (XB1)Shodian said:

No, that is your punishment if you fail. You lose everything. It sucks but that's how it should be.

So I am supposed to be punished because I ran into a bug or failed host migration that’s out of my control? How about instead of losing completely you only get half of your loot? That’s still a punishment but it won’t completely demoralize the player.

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26 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

So I am supposed to be punished because I ran into a bug or failed host migration that’s out of my control? How about instead of losing completely you only get half of your loot? That’s still a punishment but it won’t completely demoralize the player.

They cant fix host migration issues tied to loot because the game is peer-to-peer. You need to transition out of missions properly so your account can update and "save" on their servers.

As for failure punishments. It is good as it is since it makes you actually consider pushing that extra 5 rounds if the group you are in is crap. It isnt like we are failing very often. 

100% loss of resources is all good. Plus it hinders $&*^heads from afking from start to finish in endless runs. It is a great punishment for the leeches that fail to attend at the stay or leave vote, since they often end up losing the objective after everyone else leave and they sit there afking.

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Am 16.12.2019 um 00:54 schrieb (PS4)Stealth_Cobra:

Honestly, these fail states add nothing good to the game.

  1.  They discourage players from staying longer in endless missions, cause they don't want to lose everything they got. I swear I've only played two groups in month that went above 30 minutes in survival missions.... Everyone is scared of failure or a bad host migration.
  2.  They create frustrations whenever you get into a mission scenario where the HP of a terminal or defense target is ridiculously low and you don't have good CC frames and it gets destroyed in seconds (I'm thinking at you , Lvl 110+ Kuva Lich missions !)
  3. In Railjack, they slow down initial progression, as whenever a player fails a mission due to the ship being as tanky as an unmodded banshee, players get NOTHING and lose all the stuff they got that could have helped improve their railjacks

That is exactly what those failure states are there to enforce. Without them we would just run in kill a few enemies and don’t care for mission accomplished.

for Railjack just search for players to team up with, with the 1m invulnerability Timer on each catastrophic breach you can fight through the first mission without any problem. 
 

Also an enemy slowing Amesha can really help.

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I mostly agree.

Some mission fail are just bad. Derelict key share missions with the person that started mission vote, left squad, fail the mission and killing off all picked up resource. I have the same key, just use my key, keep my resources, and keep the mission going.

The worst is Empyrean and the missing individual or solo extraction. For the most part, only the host player can use Navigation to complete mission. If the host is AFK / away, then what? Stuck with losing everything or wasting hours of time that might fail the mission and lose everything anyway. Frustration. Just have to be lucky for a random chance that anyone can use Navigation sometimes.

 

Then, there are old bugs that prevent mission completion, losing everything from bugs.

Defense stuck with no enemy or unreachable enemy.
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1052062-no-enemies-spawning-to-complete-defense-wave/

Sabotage broken host migration, destroy reactor too fast, trapped at extraction side of blast door.
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1083173-game-breaking-sabotage-bug-from-host-migration/
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1141049-video-cannot-complete-mission-destroyed-reactor-too-fast-and-no-extraction-sao-neptune-sabotage/
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1090429-sabotage-left-in-uncompleteable-state/

 

 

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  • 5 weeks later...

Quick bump since just this week I got two crashes where I lost an hour of playtime, a couple veil solo runs where I ran out of lives after getting oneshotted by unavoidable homing missiles one too many times and quite a few uncompletable missions due to glitches or bugged objectives.

Everytime i lose an hour or more of progression, I usually quit for the day in anger. That's imho not a good sentiment. Time spent doing activities should be rewarded. Before at least you got to keep the intrinsics when the game glitched, now it's time going down the drain.

Edited by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra
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Always fun to see this in fissures like survival or defense, a group will often times stick around for 20-30 minutes but if a rare item shows up everyone will extract so they don't risk loosing it.

Also difficult to find a pug that will risk more than 1 hour in an arbitration for the same reason.  I see many that won't stay around even half that time.

It would obviously be more traffic on their end, but maybe the rewards should be saved on DE servers at the end of each round on endless missions.   So you loose everything since the last round but not everything from the mission.

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You're going to have a lot of people say a lot of things.

I'm going to tell you the truth people don't want to admit.

The truth is that DE is making you lose progress deliberately to frustrate you into spending money rather than trying to "earn" rewards. 

This has been going on for over half a decade, and it's a problem that is absurdly easy to fix. The only explanation is that it's still happening because DE has specifically and deliberately chosen to make it a thing that happens. It's not a bug it's a feature.

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11 hours ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:



I'm going to tell you the truth people don't want to admit.

The truth is that DE is making you lose progress deliberately to frustrate you into spending money rather than trying to "earn" rewards. 
 

Just lol. I guess fail states in Dark souls and Sekiro also exist to "frustrate you into spending money".

 

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Do you know why this is a thing in Warframe?

Because of abort farming.

It’s the same exact reason that Cache rewards aren’t revealed until the end of the mission, why Relic and Vault rewards aren’t revealed before end of mission, too.

People will play until they have what they want and then disconnect/abort (because ending the game session without using the Abort doesn’t add to your Abort stats) based on whether they get what they want or not.

That way they don’t have to reach Extraction, they don’t have to finish the next few Waves, they have what they want and can just go. Or, if they’re looking for a specific RNG drop and don’t get it, it’s faster to abort and restart than to finish the game.

Warframe was, and still is, rife with it. Heck, the people on the Intrinsics grind used it too. The problem still exists to this day if the players can get away with it.

So, sadly, no. DE are never going to bring that back in because in their eyes it’s an exploit.

Edited by Birdframe_Prime
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2 hours ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

Just lol. I guess fail states in Dark souls and Sekiro also exist to "frustrate you into spending money".

 

oh look one of these guys. you know what a fail state does in the surge which is like dark souls, both being rogue like games? you only lose scrap but keep all  discovered blueprints, limb crafting components, found scrap bundles.

another rogue like game? Everspace. know what you get to keep when you die? everything except found crafting components. move along sir.

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1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Do you know why this is a thing in Warframe?

Because of abort farming.

It’s the same exact reason that Cache rewards aren’t revealed until the end of the mission, why Relic and Vault rewards aren’t revealed before end of mission, too.

People will play until they have what they want and then disconnect/abort (because ending the game session without using the Abort doesn’t add to your Abort stats) based on whether they get what they want or not.

That way they don’t have to reach Extraction, they don’t have to finish the next few Waves, they have what they want and can just go. Or, if they’re looking for a specific RNG drop and don’t get it, it’s faster to abort and restart than to finish the game.

Warframe was, and still is, rife with it. Heck, the people on the Intrinsics grind used it too. The problem still exists to this day if the players can get away with it.

So, sadly, no. DE are never going to bring that back in because in their eyes it’s an exploit.

There's many ways to block abort farming in specific contexts : For example, making some of the rarest rewards unidentified until you finish a mission and lost if aborted .

We already have a not-so negligeable affinity boost for finishing a mission , and we could also get a ressource boost for completing missions, to motivate people to actually complete missions instead of leaving early. Alot of missions also already have end of mission specific rewards (like our current vidar and lavan parts in RJ), making it still desireable to finish a mission instead of quitting it.

DE could also offer less ressources if you abort (like let's say you abort, you only get half your credits and materials)... Would still be better than losing everything because of a bug, a host migration fail or someone that made a mistake.

While yes, you might run into the occasionnal player that aborts after getting his four argon crystals, is it really such a big issue anyway ? He's going to be replaced by another player through matchmaking anyway. Even if everyone else were to leave at last minute, leaving me alone to protect a cryopod, woudn't be such a big deal because ,gasp, I woudn't lose the stuff I picked up if the missions failed.

In the end, i feel the mild frustration of having someone occasionally leaving in the middle of a round (which already happens sometimes when something comes up IRL) more that makes up from the frustration of getting that 2% drop to finally appear, then losing it due to a bad host migration issue or a bug where you can't extract the mission.

And as other players stated, even soulsborne game aknowledge it sucks to lose progression by allowing you to retain every item you picked up and every shortcut you unlocked, plus giving you the ability to retrieve the XP you "lost" provided you can get back to your body... Because even they realize people hate spending an hour carefully navigating a level, picking every item up, then failing at the boss and having to re-explore every nook and cranny again because none of your progression has saved, having essentially wasted an hour plus of your life.

There's very few games in this day and age that don't include auto-saves, checkpoints and other methods to save recent progression because most game companies undestand that time is precious and limited and that when you spend an hour playing a specific game , it's to get things done. Again if warframe was a very stable game , which nevers suffers from host migration issues and other gamebreaking problems... they could get away with this !

But cetus, fortuna and RJ all shipped with a plethora of host migration issues and gamebreaking bugs making them nearly unplayable for weeks, with constant objectives not working and other issues making you lose all your progression, leading to more and more frustration as you keep trying to get things done while being bombarded by problems and time lost.

Just yesterday , I lost a quellor bp and a shedu part due to a crash. My friend lost 1 million credits due to people jumping off high risk index a split second before round started and host migration failed. Once lost a wolf of saturn mask after a 60 minutes kuva survival run because I could not make it to extraction in time and host migration failed. This stuff is common and way more serious that a guy that quits mid-mission because he was there to farm 1500 plastids and he got them.

Edited by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra
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1 hour ago, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

There's many ways to block abort farming in specific contexts

Which I mentioned. The detail I didn't think I'd have to go into is this:

Warframe is Peer to Peer instanced. The re-instances of Host Migration are exceptionally difficult to manage and if there had been any way to clear this up short of shelling out the hundreds of thousands of dollars a year for localised servers, they would have done it.

What this causes is a very, very simple situation. DE can't actually tell what you got from a mission until your host tells the game that's what you got. The methods of contextual abort farming blocking are not, in fact, actually the game receiving your reward and not letting you see it, it's the game having a notification for rolling that item on Mission Success.

It's a mess of net-coding and the only way to ensure that you get any of the rewards from a mission, in the event of a Host Migration, is if you were the host. Anybody not hosting is entirely reliant on the Host's connection telling the game server things correctly.

And, because of that? Guess what's possible? Throw-away accounts for hosting game code injection. They can inject code into the running session and say that you received any amount of drops (DE will pick up that a cheat engine was actually used, banning the account) however if it wasn't you, the hosted player, using that cheat then you could still play along with that player to get the drops and then the cheat account could 'disconnect' before the mission succeeded and you, the regular player, could receive the rewards by completing the mission normally, keeping your account (in theory) clean.

Even then, DE have actually got the function that many of the drops are 'per player' to stop this, but that just makes you more and more reliant on the host actually staying connected in order to keep the game data flowing.

It's a genuine nightmare of a situation.

I know what you're losing out of the game, I know. I lose stuff like that too.

But there are only two ways to fix it, and they cost. A lot. Either building the game so that a shadow of your hosted game is running on all clients simultaneously (nuking the option to have lower-end computers run the game), or having dedicated servers run out globally. That's enough that even with DE's rather good flow of money through their Plat, Prime Access, Unvaultings and Tennogen systems, isn't viable. You'd need EA or Epic money to fund the actual fix.

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2 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

oh look one of these guys. you know what a fail state does in the surge which is like dark souls, both being rogue like games? you only lose scrap but keep all  discovered blueprints, limb crafting components, found scrap bundles.

another rogue like game? Everspace. know what you get to keep when you die? everything except found crafting components. move along sir.

I am sorry but I don't really understand your point. The poster I responded to tried to claim that the main reason why Warframe has a fail state is because it wants to force people to spend more money. I showed examples of games with harsher and more likely to happen failure states that have no way of monetizing it, thus proving that having a faliure state doesn't mean an attempt to milk a customer.

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4 hours ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

Just lol. I guess fail states in Dark souls and Sekiro also exist to "frustrate you into spending money".

 

You're comparing two very different types of games with very different mechanics but given that both the games you listed make conscious efforts to impede progress of the player it would not surprise me if fail states exist in those games as a feature as well. You have to be pretty incompetent to have fail states and progress loss on this type of game, it's not the type of game where you have to go find a save point to have your progress saved. 

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Are you serious? 

The bugs needs to be fixed, no questions there.

If you remove fail state YOU'RE IN GOD MODE. You literally cannot die as long as you don't catch every ramsled to suicide by invasions....
I think the reason why god mode in a game is bad should be obvious.


 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

I am sorry but I don't really understand your point. The poster I responded to tried to claim that the main reason why Warframe has a fail state is because it wants to force people to spend more money. I showed examples of games with harsher and more likely to happen failure states that have no way of monetizing it, thus proving that having a faliure state doesn't mean an attempt to milk a customer.

because its a tried tactic that works. many games incorporate the "create a problem and then sell you the solution" "cough" railjack repair drones that they removed because it allowed you to bypass content completely "cough". i just gave 2 in the same genre of rogue like where you lose some progress on failure but not all. its not even really a loss because in dark souls as long as you make it to where you died you pick up all the souls you dropped. it is the same with the surge as well.

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Losing should matter and have implications, the game is already trivial its boring to the point people go afk - they know its impossible to lose or they dont care - its that bad. And if you are one of 'just let me win while I dont even bother playing' people that's fine - 90% of the game is for you, dont ruin the remaining 10% for the rest of the players.

BUT off course bullcrap 'lose a mission out of nowhere' shouldn't exist no matter if you lose any resources\progress or not. Lose conditions should be pretty clear and fair (as in depend on player decisions, actions and skill and not some arbitrary or hidden trigger nonsense)

Edited by Monolake
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8 minutes ago, Monolake said:

Losing should matter and have implications, the game is already trivial its boring to the point people go afk - they know its impossible to lose or they dont care - its that bad. And if you are one of 'just let me win while I dont even bother playing' people that's fine - 90% of the game is for you, dont ruin the remaining 10% for the rest of the players.

BUT off course bullcrap 'lose a mission out of nowhere' shouldn't exist no matter if you lose any resources\progress or not. Lose conditions should be pretty clear and fair (as in depend on player decisions, actions and skill and not some arbitrary or hidden trigger nonsense)

i dont know if they changed derelict yet havent done any in a while, but doesnt the mission auto fail when host abandons/DC? pretty sure it still does. this is one of those bs mission failures.

Edited by EinheriarJudith
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13 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

"create a problem and then sell you the solution" "cough" railjack repair drones that they removed because it allowed you to bypass content completely "cough".

Uhm, yes? Warframe has been selling almost all the frames and weapons for long as I remember it. Why do repair drones surprise anybody?

By the way. I have grinded railjack for about 8 weeks (5-6 hours per day) and I only lost my loot maybe 3-5 times. I'm not sure how much you lost there, but since you keep Intrinsics on failure you're still good. Trust me, by the time you max those, you'll be swimming in those materials.

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