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Silent, Alarming.. nothing in between.


kapn655321
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9 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

isn't an entirely stealth oriented game

The stealth also falls further behind the curve of viability without these considerations.
I don't play stealth, but that has a little something to do with it.
I can't really feel the limit of what stealth is meant to be in game

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35 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

The stealth also falls further behind the curve of viability without these considerations.
I don't play stealth, but that has a little something to do with it.
I can't really feel the limit of what stealth is meant to be in game

Stealth in Warframe is one of those underdeveloped systems that devs no longer care about. Adding some weird half-states to weapon alarm rates won't make any damn difference. I think Latron Prime has some kind of distance based silencing mechanic, but I'm not sure about that.

Enemy AI is too stupid and easily exploitable. Same goes for spy/rescue maps. As good looking as they are at first, they cease to provide any challenge as soon as you get used to them.

What use is there for a loudest/quietest gun outside of stealth if enemies swarm towards you all the same because they know where your position is even if you haven't fired a single shot?

Ivara can use her noise arrow to draw enemies to a certain spot at will, it's useful in some situations. At the same time, you can just kill them all and be done with it. 

And now that we have access to exilus slots on our weapons, we can silence them completely at any time too. Warframe lacks depth required for stealth-like/detection-based mechanics and it doesn't require their existence either.

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44 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

And I'd be interested in it being better developed.
No need to waste the whole range of mechanics because they're 'halfway there'

There's absolutely no reason to further develop a mechanic that MAYBE 1% of players has an interest in. Stealth has never had a place in the game. Even when the game was slower and meant to be played more methodically (which is when the stealth mechanic was made), no one went slow enough to bother using the stealth mechanics. They aren't going to waste resources on things that no one wants to use. They removed Trials from the game for that very reason. No one wanted to do them so they stopped wasting time on them and focused further developing things the did know players wanted or fresh new ideas.

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5 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

o one went slow enough to bother using the stealth mechanics.

Which were also incomplete, and more trouble than they were worth, when there was no negative to disregarding them.

Spy missions, you didn't even have to complete the objective..
If you failed it just became exterminate and you won anyways.

There has been some work toward making stealth more mission critical in small ways, so it's not as if they've moved further from that mechanic, or made it less viable in the future.

I understand that this suggestion is a drop in the bucket towards things that would make stealth worth while, but would you be specifically opposed?

Edited by kapn655321
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FWIW, there is still some info in the wiki about weapons that while they're listed as "Noise Level: Alarming"  are quieter than normal in effect but not completely silent. Some of them are listed on this page:  https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Stealth#Primary

Although sniper rifles (generally) and the Latron also have some notes to that effect on their specific pages, but aren't listed there. 🤨

Anyway, I can't vouch for any of it, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if even the vestigial, non-binary system alluded to in the wiki had vanished entirely.

 

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17 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

it wouldn't surprise me at all if even the vestigial, non-binary system alluded to in the wiki had vanished entirely.

That's kinda what gets me about it all.

...no one can be sure at all. There's no real metric to base it off of.

Say you're trying to stay outside of audible range, but get seen..
You'd be totally unsure of what's the cause.. thus stealth just becomes an after thought out of necessity.
If fewer moments made that the only option, perhaps it would be an option.

With knowing exactly the limits of something like that, you can better gauge and feel the distance and awareness of enemies.
Not having avenues to explore the AI with, like this.. a control, if you will.. makes the whole thing default to being messy and unreliable.

These thoughts have been on my mind for years now.
Like, yeah, we have no incentive to be stealthy, and the AI is pretty janky..
but improving the one may help improve our interaction with the other.
It would be nice to have a better stealth system, this is just part of that iceberg.

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8 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

but would you be specifically opposed?

I hate to say it since I actually do enjoy stealth games, but yes. I am opposed. As I said, it really doesn't fit into the game beyond what we have now because players refuse to utilize the system that is there because it's not fast paced action. I'd much rather they spend their time making new content or focusing on fixing systems that play a much larger role in way the game than stealth ever will even if they made the stealth mechanics more robust. They are behind on fixing a number of systems as it is. We've been waiting on fixes to larger systems like damage and focus for years now and I'd rather they fix those than adding more stealth mechanics that 99% of people are going to ignore since it's not the fast paced action people play this game for.

Edited by Ceryk
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2 hours ago, Ceryk said:

I am opposed

Well, that's understandable enough, and I see your point.

Though, I'll give you something to consider.
Did DE make the game more Hallway hero because everyone camped in hallways?
They made slight improvements over time to kits until people just shook loose.

Much in the same way, perhaps in a year or two, they could retouch the stealth.
I don't see it as high priority, myself. Thanks for your feedback and discussion. 😃

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1 hour ago, kapn655321 said:

Well, that's understandable enough, and I see your point.

Though, I'll give you something to consider.
Did DE make the game more Hallway hero because everyone camped in hallways?
They made slight improvements over time to kits until people just shook loose.

Much in the same way, perhaps in a year or two, they could retouch the stealth.
I don't see it as high priority, myself. Thanks for your feedback and discussion. 😃

Ah, but there is a significant difference between the Stealth issue and the Hallway Hero issue. With Stealth, it's just something the majority of people weren't interested in because it doesn't really fit into the game and even if they developed it further, it's unlikely that players would want to engage stealth because it would slow gameplay down. The Hallway Hero garbage was part of the larger Lazyframe Epidemic that was eliminated because it was legitimately ruining the game. Lack of developed stealth mechanics doesn't harm this game like the absolute bare minimum attitude and extreme exploitation of game mechanics did.

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il y a 20 minutes, Ceryk a dit :

Ah, but there is a significant difference between the Stealth issue and the Hallway Hero issue. With Stealth, it's just something the majority of people weren't interested in because it doesn't really fit into the game and even if they developed it further, it's unlikely that players would want to engage stealth because it would slow gameplay down. The Hallway Hero garbage was part of the larger Lazyframe Epidemic that was eliminated because it was legitimately ruining the game. Lack of developed stealth mechanics doesn't harm this game like the absolute bare minimum attitude and extreme exploitation of game mechanics did.

Sure BUT you can't make a game with all missions starting unalerted, with the Main character being told at the start of every mission that "The enemy doesn't know we're here", alarms, noise levels for your weapons,silent bows, invisibility mechanics, LOKI, I V A R A, missions relying on the fact that you should avoid detection (Spy,Rescue) and at the same time you underdevelop the system around it... It'd make no sense!

They either need to polish it a minimum or get rid of it, at this point! 

Edited by unknow99
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3 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

a significant difference between the Stealth issue and the Hallway Hero issue

Certainly is, with very different fixes. Totally agree there.

 

4 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

it's unlikely that players would want to engage stealth

This is where our opinions differ.
Consider titles like Metal Gear, Thief, Hitman.. and many others that,
while you may go loud, that is a departure from the intended path.
Being that they are departures, it changes the dynamic and makes
that more fun and exciting.

Much like those games, the loud approach can get stale, and people
will want to explore different methods of fighting the enemies.
Not finding that, they'll just keep doing the most effective thing, or
get bored. This game is no different in that right. Granted Warframe
is far more compelling of a loot/shoot/horde, the lack of stealth
gives a context of 1-dimensional combat, brainless AI, etc.
People going loud, can appreciate that for how it evolves the combat.
That doesn't mean quite so much when that's the default.

It's also a self-reinforcing issue that full aggro is the most fleshed out.
To accomplish the goals in the most efficient way, you just nuke it and
vacuum up the debris. Seeing as there are players who prefer spy,
stealth frames, finishers, and so on that are not playing primarily in
that way tells me they are in some ways neglected. They almost have
their own mission types and playstyle, but the game doesn't have the
nuance to make room for them, yet.


Though, I certainly respect and understand your perspective.
As a company, or as workers, they can only be pointed in so many
directions at once.. and the existing directions could use their own
work. ..It would detract from their progress to some extent, which
might prevent some amount of bug fixing, polish, or well needed
work. I don't deny that. Likewise, it is the same with stealth having
been on the back burner so long that it's un-service-able in it's
present state.. and other work detracts from it. It's glaringly
obvious that our stealth is neglected, and thus deserves a
consideration in future updates in years to come. As mentioned
before, why waste a mechanic that's halfway there?

Heck, we got Defection so that Solo players could technically
play support roles in a more fleshed out way. To players into that,
that's a positive infrastructure to their playstyle being fully realized.
To put it another way, if all they do is double down on Eidolons and
Raids to push the powermad, then I'm not going to find, 'myself,' in
future content.

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16 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

There isn't like, a loudest gun? Or one that's almost silent, but you'd hear within 10m..
Could be a whole layer to weapon selection if their audible range were a stat we could work with.
 

so you mean making an audible "AoE" the gun created as a stat and adjust (or add new weapon) different guns to have different range? 

could be good, if DE fully commit to the idea and change a whole lot more stuff to make the stealth game play feel different when player choose between a low audible gun vs a silent gun (the different would mostly be negate by enemy line of sight to each other is my guess).

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24 minutes ago, FireSegment said:

so you mean making an audible "AoE" the gun created as a stat


 

Well the enemy is bound to already have some set range.
The silencing mods already boast a reduction in audibility.
This decibel range stat is not shown in stats.

It's already a mechanic that exists, but is overshadowed by not being able to link a result to a number mentally.
I suspect that alone plays a critical role in why it's never been used for this reason tactically.

The noise level of each individual weapon would either be...
a seriously tedious and low yield exercise in minutia..
or already exists, and just isn't listed.

Sound levels could easily be broken into categories.
Shotguns being louder than rifles, unless a rifle makes things go boom.
Sound at barrel and sound on hit may also play a large role in launchers.

No rush order on this by any means. They're up to their ankles in railjack.
Would be nice in the future. 😃

**Might also suggest, a Rare silencer mod that reduces the audible volume of a weapon to you and the party.
...silencing did this for a short time, but it wasn't universally appreciated. A Primed Hush could do this, for instance.

Edited by kapn655321
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