Let's Make Banshee Better!

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

I guess people are finally talking about Banshee again.

So... let's discuss her problems, and how to make her better!

No long intro, let's just dive in.

____________________________

Banshee's main issues are as follows:

• Sound Quake and Sonic Boom (w/o the augments) are widely ignored, as they aren't really good
• lacks any survivability

Here are my thoughts on how to rectify these issues, while making her abilities more unique and powerful, complementing her gameplay.

Passive:

I feel as though Banshee's current passive is a bit redundant with Silence, and can be added in, making room for another effect that can possibly aid in her survivability.

Changes:

• New Passive: Deafen
  • Enemies experience an extremely loud and disorienting sound constantly when near Banshee (within 40 meters) which dazes them briefly every few seconds, reduces their movement speed (20%) and reduces their accuracy (20%). This effect is intensified the closer Banshee gets to an enemy.

This new passive grants Banshee a ton of free CC and survivability, as well as free finishers.

1^st Ability:

• New Ability: Sonic Shock
  • Banshee super-charges her weapons with high-decibel sound waves for a period of time, increasing their damage drastically. Each shot or slash will release an intense sound blast with it, staggering enemies and knocking off their armor in a cone in front of her. Additionally, every time an enemy gets too close, Banshee pulses with sound energy, releasing it as a sonic boom in a small radius around her, knocking them down. This ability's damage and range increases over time until an enemy enter's its range or the ability ends.

Banshee's current Sonic Boom is pretty weak, and the augment is required to get any real use out of it in higher levels. By incorporating the augment, whilst also increasing the ability's overall damage by tying it to weapon damage, as well as giving her a bit of passive CC, Banshee will have an extremely reliable and fun 1st ability in her arsenal.

2^nd Ability:

• Moved Silence to Ability 2

3^rd Ability:

• Moved Sonar to Ability 3
  • change: add Resonance to the base ability, but cap additional Sonars at 3

Even with all of the additional CC, Banshee is still fairly fragile. Increasing her damage potential with Sonar by adding in Resonance at base seems like a fair trade-off. She's a glass cannon. Let's increase the "cannon" part. By adding in her Augment to the base ability, this frees up more space for builds as well, as Resonance is so overwhelmingly beneficial that it's an absolute must in Banshee builds.

4^th Ability:

• New Ability: Sonic Reverb
  • Banshee absorbs the decibel level of sound in the area into her self. The closer she is to loud sounds the more power she draws. Banshee then releases the into an ultra powerful shockwave that deals immense damage, as well as ragdolls enemies, inflicting the blast and bleed status effects, knocks off their armor by up to 100% depending on the amount of sound absorbed, and permanently crippling their action speeds and accuracy. Enemies within 10 meters of Banshee will be instantly killed.

Sound Quake is a fairly generic pure damage ability. By giving it supplementary effects and also utilizing Octavia's Amp mechanic to give it additional damage, Banshee could have a truly formidable ultimate ability.

______________________________

Let me know your thoughts on my changes, as well as your thoughts on Banshee, and if she has room for improvement.

Thanks for reading!

[Steru]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

I guess people are finally talking about Banshee again.

...are they?

7 minutes ago, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

Passive:

Changes:

• New Passive: Deafen
  • Enemies experience an extremely loud and disorienting sound constantly when near Banshee (within 40 meters) which dazes them briefly every few seconds, reduces their movement speed (20%) and reduces their accuracy (20%). This effect is intensified the closer Banshee gets to an enemy.

This new passive grants Banshee a ton of free CC and survivability, as well as free finishers.

Somewhat similar to Gara's passive but way stronger, maybe too strong to be a passive

12 minutes ago, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

2^nd Ability:

• Moved Silence to Ability 2

3^rd Ability:

• Moved Sonar to Ability 3

Ok, but why?

13 minutes ago, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

 

• change: add Resonance to the base ability, but cap additional Sonars at 3

this frees up more space for builds as well, as Resonance is so overwhelmingly beneficial that it's an absolute must in Banshee builds.

 

Imo, if an augment mod is "overwhelmingly beneficial" for a warframe, whose augmented ability could work just fine without the augmnet, the augment is good and it fullfills it's role as an actual augment, because the ability could also work without it.
When you're modding your warframe, you have to choose between many possible builds and you have to decide if a mod is worth a slot; this happenes with all kinds of mods, including augments.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

1 hour ago, Steru said:

Imo, if an augment mod is "overwhelmingly beneficial" for a warframe, whose augmented ability could work just fine without the augmnet, the augment is good and it fullfills it's role as an actual augment, because the ability could also work without it.
When you're modding your warframe, you have to choose between many possible builds and you have to decide if a mod is worth a slot; this happenes with all kinds of mods, including augments

I don't think that Augments should be so good that you'd be cheating yourself if you didn't use it. I think that Resonance is a must on Banshee, and that it ruins build diversity. It's like not putting Vitality on Nidus. Mods that you pretty much have to use should be eliminated from the game.

[BrazilianJoe]

I don't think the passive need to be touched at all. 

I would tweak: 

1) Sonic Boom should remain, but incorporate the Augment indeed to strip armor. It should also neutralize incoming frontal fire that hit the travelling wave of the Sonic Boom. 

The augment should be replaced with Sonic Boom Echo, which would rebound the Sonic Boom to up to 1/2/3/4 enemies. 

If the player holds the button instead of clicking, Sonic Boom is cast on the back of the enemy towards the player, to throw the enemies into melee range.

2) Sonar - shots hitting weakspots will ignore armor. 

3) Silence would be improved for more defensive effectiveness.
Starts with a larger radius than currently, but shrinks over time.
Also act as an Adaptation Armor, that will reduce damage, but also shrink faster on each hit.
It will give Banshee +X armor while active, and an Adaptation effect that will reduce incoming damage of that type while the aura is active. This adaptation effect will remain for some seconds, after the ability stops. 
Can be recastable while active, allowing for armor replenishment, full radius restoration and continuity of the Adaptation effect.

This would give increased defensive power to Banshee, while making the shrink/grow silence field able to continuously re-stun enemies. 

4) Player should be able to cast all 4 abilities while sound quakeing and rotate the camera to look around to aim SOnic Boom. Sonic Boom would be especially effective to be hast on "hold to fetch" mode, to bring enemies out of reach of Sound Quake into its AoE. 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by BrazilianJoe

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

18 hours ago, BrazilianJoe said:

1) Sonic Boom should remain, but incorporate the Augment indeed to strip armor. It should also neutralize incoming frontal fire that hit the travelling wave of the Sonic Boom. 

The augment should be replaced with Sonic Boom Echo, which would rebound the Sonic Boom to up to 1/2/3/4 enemies. 

If the player holds the button instead of clicking, Sonic Boom is cast on the back of the enemy towards the player, to throw the enemies into melee range.

Sonic Boom is an incredibly generic ability, which is the main reason I think it should be changed in the first place. It's just a boring push, and holding to pull is just a copy of Mag's Pull. If anything, giving Mag a Push would fit much better thematically and in terms of gameplay.

Echo sounds really cool conceptually though.

18 hours ago, BrazilianJoe said:

2) Sonar - shots hitting weakspots will ignore armor. 

You already get a massive damage boost from shooting weak spots. Why an armor ignore too? Especially considering that the Sonar augment can stack it across the entire body.

18 hours ago, BrazilianJoe said:

3) Silence would be improved for more defensive effectiveness.
Starts with a larger radius than currently, but shrinks over time.
Also act as an Adaptation Armor, that will reduce damage, but also shrink faster on each hit.
It will give Banshee +X armor while active, and an Adaptation effect that will reduce incoming damage of that type while the aura is active. This adaptation effect will remain for some seconds, after the ability stops. 
Can be recastable while active, allowing for armor replenishment, full radius restoration and continuity of the Adaptation effect.

I don't understand how this fits into the rest of Banshee's kit. It feels like some random tacked-on damage reduction ability where it isn't needed. It doesn't even feel like it has anything to do with sound here.

18 hours ago, BrazilianJoe said:

4) Player should be able to cast all 4 abilities while sound quakeing and rotate the camera to look around to aim SOnic Boom. Sonic Boom would be especially effective to be hast on "hold to fetch" mode, to bring enemies out of reach of Sound Quake into its AoE. 

The main problem with Sound Quake is that it's just a generic non-scaling AoE damage ability that renders your Frame completely immobile. It definitely needs more changes than just allowing you to cast abilities while active.

[(PSN)boilerhogbc]

23 hours ago, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

It's just a boring push

I guess soul punch should be changed asap then?  

 

I dont have a problem with Banshee.  I was bummed when they changed quake augment but still find it very useful for my CC build and damage build.   There always needs to be abilities that are used in very specific situations and others that are used all the time.  

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

14 hours ago, (PS4)boilerhogbc said:

I guess soul punch should be changed asap then? 

Hey, someone's catching on! ^{Soul Punch is pretty terrible, but Sonic Boom is literally worse than Mag's Pull without the augment.}

14 hours ago, (PS4)boilerhogbc said:

There always needs to be abilities that are used in very specific situations and others that are used all the time.  

I think that abilities should actually complement the Frame it's attached to, and I personally think that Sonic Boom's just not doing it. It can easily be replaced with a much better ability, and one that's more akin to Banshee's weapon-centric playstyle.

[Namah]

Moving Sonar to 3 will result in it being 75 energy to cast, this would nuke my Sonar build because I cast it a lot and I run no efficiency on her. You will be using Sonar more than you would Silence, why have it consume more energy with such an unnecessary switch around? I'm all for these changes, but please don't touch Sonar, the ability is fine as it is.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Namah

[Miyabi-sama]

В 16.12.2019 в 19:53, (PS4)thefallenloser сказал:

Banshee is still fairly fragile. Increasing her damage potential with Sonar by adding in Resonance at base seems like a fair trade-off. She's a glass cannon. Let's increase the "cannon" part.

Dare to say she allows way over the top damage already. These changes fail to serve suggested purpose as she already does what you want.

Also changes you suggesting sound like just personal preferences. I dislike those. Thumbs down.

[-Equi-]

Am 16.12.2019 um 21:33 schrieb BrazilianJoe:

2) Sonar - shots hitting weakspots will ignore armor. 

Hey, lets nerf Banshee into hell.
Now: 100+ Damage Multiplier (with Augment)
You: Yay, lets ignore armor
 

[(XBOX)SirMilkfiend]

Banshee needs a rework more than anyone else but it's hard to picture because she isn't a conventional stealth frame. No invisibility, no survivability, no utility besides big damage and a weak stun. Maybe if as a part of her passive she can visualise sounds enemies make being able to see them through walls like you had a scanner on.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Everytime I see a thread about banshee saying her passive is redundant because silence I really do wonder if the people posting actually understand banshee. 

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

On 2019-12-19 at 1:13 AM, Namah said:

Moving Sonar to 3 will result in it being 75 energy to cast, this would nuke my Sonar build because I cast it a lot and I run no efficiency on her. You will be using Sonar more than you would Silence, why have it consume more energy with such an unnecessary switch around? I'm all for these changes, but please don't touch Sonar, the ability is fine as it is.

Maybe Banshee can be more like Volt and have 2 abilities that cost 50 energy?

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

On 2019-12-19 at 4:38 AM, Miyabi-sama said:

Dare to say she allows way over the top damage already. These changes fail to serve suggested purpose as she already does what you want.

I'm not sure if you mean the specific change you quoted or my changes as a whole here, but I never thought I'd see someone argue against making a Frame better? Allowing her to have Resonance in her base ability does in fact increase her damage potential, and as a squishy "stealth" Frame, she will need a method of pumping out very high damage quickly, as she has nothing else to protect herself with.

On 2019-12-19 at 4:38 AM, Miyabi-sama said:

Also changes you suggesting sound like just personal preferences. I dislike those. Thumbs down.

Which changes do you mean? Please, constructive criticism.

I pointed out issues I found with Banshee and that I noticed others have and suggested how I think things can be changed for her in an interesting way...

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

On 2019-12-20 at 11:36 AM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Everytime I see a thread about banshee saying her passive is redundant because silence I really do wonder if the people posting actually understand banshee. 

I understand the difference between the passive effect and Silence, and still, I find it redundant, and could see something that would benefit Banshee more in it's stead.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

55 minutes ago, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

I understand the difference between the passive effect and Silence, and still, I find it redundant, and could see something that would benefit Banshee more in it's stead.

If we're to remove things solely based on overlap that can happen then we'd immediately nuke half the current roster of frames out of the game.

Could there be something that benefits banshee more than her current passive?  Possibly.  Does that mean it needs to be changed?  Absolutely not.  And DE would be better off addressing the few issues that actually exist.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

54 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

If we're to remove things solely based on overlap that can happen then we'd immediately nuke half the current roster of frames out of the game.

This is a very, very silly counter-point, as this is overlap within the same Frame's kit, not across an entire roster.

55 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Could there be something that benefits banshee more than her current passive?  Possibly.  Does that mean it needs to be changed?  Absolutely not.  And DE would be better off addressing the few issues that actually exist.

So you're saying that DE should not fix all of Banshee and only the more prevalent issues? Got it.

When updating a Warframe, all around improvements in areas of weakness should be made. Your counter-point here is basically encouraging DE to be lazy by saying that they can ignore the issues that aren't surface level instead of doing everything the right way.

DE has updated many reworked Frames' passives. The same can be done for Banshee.

[Miyabi-sama]

11 часов назад, (PS4)thefallenloser сказал:

I never thought I'd see someone argue against making a Frame better?

Well you should think again.

The better way is tweaking the other game aspects in order to make some frames perform better. You fighting consequences, not roots of the problem.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On my post I have talked about her getting a look at here is my post.

Banshee is a stealth frame but not a very good one so my ideas are going improve on the concept and focus on changing enemy behaviour, here is what I would do.

  

Passive: Depending on the level of noise in the environment will determine the weapons and abilities performance.

·       There is a sound indicator showing the volume level of noise.

·       If there is no sound, weapons will be silenced.

·       If there is noise in the environment, her ability strength will increase based on the level of noise.

·       Sounds that Banshee makes does not add to the volume gauge.

 

1st ability:

·       Enemies hit will receive a 30% slower knockdown recovery.

·       Enemies that hit a hard surface will take more damage.

·       It can reflect projectile weapons back at enemies.

·       Can be used on the move.

·       Can break breakable objects.

 

2nd ability:

·       Can be used on the move.

·       (Synergy) Enemies affected take increase damage from her 1st and 4th ability.

 

3rd ability:

·       Enemies will notice you within a 15m of their vision.

·       Enemies will have a slower reaction time when noticing you (if you stand in front of them it will take them 3 seconds until they react to your presents)

·       If you hold the ability, you can control how far the ability reaches based on how much range it has.

·       Show the radius of the ability.

·       Put an indicator above the enemies’ head to show how quickly they will be alerted by seeing you. (like stealth games)

·       If enemies are alerted, casting this ability will revert them back to being un-alerted however they will still be alerted if the alarms are on or if you are in their sights.

·       Can be used on the move.

·       (Synergy) If you use after casting the 2nd ability, you can see enemies through walls. It will also give you 4.0 punch-through on weapons. (can be increased by strength mods)

 

4th Ability:

·       Enemies will be suspended in the air.

·       After being cast, you can now move around while active.

·       It drains 6 energy a second.

·       After deactivation, enemies will have their damage reduced by 80%.

·       Can break breakable objects.

·       (Synergy) because this makes continues noise, the volume gauge will be at its highest as long as the ability is active.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

On 2020-01-06 at 1:05 PM, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

This is a very, very silly counter-point, as this is overlap within the same Frame's kit, not across an entire roster.

It's a very applicable comparison.  You writing it off so simply is very telling.

Quote

So you're saying that DE should not fix all of Banshee and only the more prevalent issues? Got it.

Nope.  But if this is the only way you're capable of debating with someone then believe whatever you want to believe.  I just won't bother replying further.

Quote

When updating a Warframe, all around improvements in areas of weakness should be made. Your counter-point here is basically encouraging DE to be lazy by saying that they can ignore the issues that aren't surface level instead of doing everything the right way.

This is stating that overlap in any capacity is inherently bad design.  Which was the whole point of my comparison to begin with.  My "counter point" was that Banshee if she's to be touched should be adjusted based on actual issues.  Not fictitious ones such as the one you've created out of thin air.

Quote

DE has updated many reworked Frames' passives. The same can be done for Banshee.

True, but passives are generally not a big aspect of most Warframe kits so generally speaking it's not a major focus.  I'm not arguing that her passive can't be updated.  I'm saying it doesn't need to be and there are real issues in her kit that DE would be better served to look at then simply pouring all of their resources into making sure her passive is important and serviceable for everyone's standards.

Edited January 7, 2020 by (XB1)Knight Raime

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

17 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It's a very applicable comparison.  You writing it off so simply is very telling.

 

I... didn't write it off lol? Changing a Frame's passive is very different than removing half the Frames in the game who all function pretty differently. It's a false equivalent.

17 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Nope.  But if this is the only way you're capable of debating with someone then believe whatever you want to believe.  I just won't bother replying further.

 

Then what do you mean? Before this post you left three very short responses that weren't good at explaining your viewpoint.You need to better explain yourself, or this is what I think you're saying. It wasn't a debate, it was an actual question.

17 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

This is stating that overlap in any capacity is inherently bad design.  Which was the whole point of my comparison to begin with.  My "counter point" was that Banshee if she's to be touched should be adjusted based on actual issues.  Not fictitious ones such as the one you've created out of thin air.

 

No... lol, it's not. What I'm saying is that when a Warframe is reworked, all of their issues should be fixed within the same update, instead of leaving things out that aren't the most apparent issues. For instance, Nyx's passive change from disarming enemies (very slowly) to giving her evasion improved her survivability. Vauban's passive change from giving tiny armor on a squishy caster Frame to adding to his damage improved his damage output capabilities.

17 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

True, but passives are generally not a big aspect of most Warframe kits so generally speaking it's not a major focus.  I'm not arguing that her passive can't be updated.  I'm saying it doesn't need to be and there are real issues in her kit that DE would be better served to look at then simply pouring all of their resources into making sure her passive is important and serviceable for everyone's standards.

My goal was to update a Warframe by making aspects I find could be improved on them better. This is just an idea of mine. It seems as though you're overestimating the importance of just an idea I had. I believe it is a "real issue" that could be improved and DE would be better served to look at everything that could be improved as a whole rather than parts of it. If DE can look at the passive and make it better, than they should, simple as that. A passive isn't like a multi-billion dollar project or something, lol.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

On 2020-01-07 at 12:01 AM, Miyabi-sama said:

The better way is tweaking the other game aspects in order to make some frames perform better

Wouldn't that the affect every Warframe for the sake of fixing current Banshee, instead of just making her better? That would the require all Frames to be changed a bit, instead of just improving Banshee in the context of the game now, which is what they've been doing with all recent reworks.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

4 hours ago, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

 

I... didn't write it off lol? Changing a Frame's passive is very different than removing half the Frames in the game who all function pretty differently. It's a false equivalent.

Telling me it's not a valid comparison is writing it off.  You can't imply the importance of passives in a general sense and then turn around and say "they're just passives."

4 hours ago, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

 

Then what do you mean? Before this post you left three very short responses that weren't good at explaining your viewpoint.You need to better explain yourself, or this is what I think you're saying. It wasn't a debate, it was an actual question.

Lecturing me to word myself better but insists on putting words in my mouth.  Ironic.  My post never implied that her passive couldn't be improved.  Your response is basically saying my response was that I didn't want all of her kits issues to be fixed.  So you're not only speaking for me, falsely representing my stance, but having a passive jab at me.  If you didn't mean any of that then maybe you need to better explain yourself.

4 hours ago, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

 

No... lol, it's not. What I'm saying is that when a Warframe is reworked, all of their issues should be fixed within the same update, instead of leaving things out that aren't the most apparent issues. For instance, Nyx's passive change from disarming enemies (very slowly) to giving her evasion improved her survivability. Vauban's passive change from giving tiny armor on a squishy caster Frame to adding to his damage improved his damage output capabilities.

Let me make this a simple train of thought for you.  You responded to my post saying that her passive is redundant when you knew how it and silence worked.  I responded by saying that overlap isn't inherently a problem and made a comparison.  You remain firm in your belief that it's a problem that exists and needs to be addressed.  So if both abilities are functioning as they should be and your focus is on her passive specifically it's very easy to conclude that you are saying her passive is an issue simply based on the fact that it some what overlaps with one of her active abilities.

So it really shouldn't be hard to understand why someone would believe that you think overlap in general is a problem.  As you've never eluded to anything else about the current passive.  You want it changed for the sake of it being changed.  Not because there's something actually wrong with her passive.  If you want to shoehorn in some way to make her more survivable than she currently is (as your suggestions in the beginning) you can find some other way to add that into her kit that doesn't involve ruining something that works perfectly fine as is.

4 hours ago, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

My goal was to update a Warframe by making aspects I find could be improved on them better. This is just an idea of mine. It seems as though you're overestimating the importance of just an idea I had. I believe it is a "real issue" that could be improved and DE would be better served to look at everything that could be improved as a whole rather than parts of it. If DE can look at the passive and make it better, than they should, simple as that. A passive isn't like a multi-billion dollar project or something, lol.

All i'm doing is simply responding to a conversation you started.  If you really don't find passives to be that important nor do you truly believe very much in your proposed ideas then you could have simply looked at my tongue in cheek initial reply and simply ignored me.  But you decided to open the door with a debate about it.  So you can't hand wave the entire conversation away as something of little import when you've never approached the conversation in this fashion.  I'll save us both further expenditure of energy and just not reply further since it's very clear you simply wanted to disagree with me rather than have an actual discussion.

[DenisJaguar]

At the moment i play Banshee in Sanctuary Onslaught with others of course.

Banshee is a support frame,

a) I use her first when it is needed to push the enemy they don't shoot back when they are pushed
b) I use her second if they are alot of enemies spawning (i used it when i want and more often in solor mission)
c) I user her Third all the time (enemy cannot shoot for some second and that is what is needed to kill them of with a good weapon)
d) i use her fourth when i am full of energy (the enemy doesn't shoot and the rest of the team does the killing)

Banshee is a support frame, she do not have alot of armor but her passive and other abilities, well use make her very good.

I'm still missing any augment for her but working on it and wish i could get the prime version.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Spaceland