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As a long term vet, the RNG stats on new content is having the opposite of its intended effect, for me.


RedDirtTrooper
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39 minutes ago, H0B0Z said:

It's having a similar effect on me. I repaired one item and promptly decided not to repair anything else until the community decides which MK III stats are "acceptable". Until then I'm sticking to clan researched components. I could care less about "god roles".

Lets say this whole "random roll" thing is the route DE is going to take and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Would you rather have the current random percentage ranges, which result in items being "good" or "bad"?

Or would you rather have a pool of random perks, whose values are set, which results in some items being "ok" and some items being "better" depending on your play style?

The second. At a bare minimum it should be impossible to find MK3 stuff worse than MK2, etc.

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21 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

This is literally the mentality I NEED to employ in order to enjoy modern video games without massively over-spending on them

No, it's not. If a $60 game brings in at least 60 hours worth of gameplay, you've already spent that money better than if you took it to movie theaters.

In Warframe, most of us have already put in thousands.

I'm simply telling you, as a player who has done hardcore raiding and now plays Warframe extremely casually, and have been for 6 years, that nothing in Railjack incentivizes you into perfecting your stats the way you're thinking.

RNG stats like this give you a route to gear progression that never seems to end, but that doesn't mean you need to relentlessly pursue that progression.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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10 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

I'm simply telling you, as a player who has done hardcore raiding and now plays Warframe extremely casually, and have been for 6 years, that nothing in Railjack incentivizes you into perfecting your stats the way you're thinking.

Well, as a player who's been playing MMOs for 15 years, I can tell you that this is irrelevant. Progression systems in MMOs don't exist to entertain. They exist to condition, influence and direct. That's the whole reason they exist - so players have a reason to keep playing even after they're technically bored with the game. A progression system which is made deliberately slow and laborious then gated behind RNG is what we used to call "a time sink," back when the point of an MMO was to waste your time so you pay more subscription fees. These days, such progression systems come with the "option" to pay for progress, pay for power, pay to make the deliberately bad design go away. These days we call that "pay to win," and it's all over Warframe.

You could: A) grind for resources to pay exuberant repair fees and wait 12 hours or B) pay 50 Plat and just HAVE the item. Whether or not I HAVE to have the best items or not, that's paying for power. That's paying to skip grind place in there specifically to give me something to pay to skip. Stuff like this is why modern gaming comprises of 50% enjoying video games and 50% waging eternal psychological battle against trained behavioural psychologists. It doesn't matter what I'm "required" to do by explicit game mechanics, because it's the implicit psychological manipulation that ends up getting me and wasting my money.

Without wishing to be rude, claiming that nothing in Railjack incentivises me to seek out optimal performance shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how progression systems in video games are designed, to the extent that I have trouble accepting this claim from a seasoned raider. EVERY progression system in EVERY game is built to incentivise min/maxing, and it's up to each individual player to be cynical enough to see through it and stop when it gets excessive, but that precise attitude is what's led me down my path of fundamentally distrusting game developers these days.

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6 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

nothing in Railjack incentivizes you into perfecting your stats the way you're thinking.

For some of us variants stats existing is incentive enough. I'd love to not feel that way, and goodness knows I fight against the urge to let stuff like this ruin games for me, but that doesn't mean that there's not a tiny little voice in the back of my mind saying that anything but a perfect roll is junk, and that I haven't really gotten the "real" item and should keep grinding away at it until I do. I fully recognize that this urge towards optimization and max rolls isn't necessary, but that doesn't stop me from feeling like it is. Warframe used to be a safe harbor from that kind of RNG and those feelings, and I'd like to know if it's turning in to just another grinder with RNG progression masquerading as content. This is now the third set of random stats they've added to the game, and as long as I keep playing I'm going to keep giving them feedback on how much I hate it. I'd like DE to at least know that a portion of their player base doesn't want RNG stats, doesn't like the ones we already have, and definitely doesn't want to see more of them in the future. I have no illusions that it's going to make them change their mind, or even change future plans, but I care about Warframe enough that I'd like them to know.

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20 hours ago, Sitchrea said:

Pretty sure that is your intrinsics or House variant, not an RNG roll.

Last hotfix gave weapons random fire rate bonuses, photor getting damage instead because, you know, beam weapon.  However, it seems like only weapons collected AFTER the hotfix have this fire rate bonus?

This can increase the DPS of a weapon considerably, though it can also make managing its heat a little more difficult.  Have fun with those zetki's packing ~+50% fire rate.  Coincidentally,  this little fact might have made photors preferable to a lot of people.

Edited by Lost_Cartographer
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Never yet in my entire history of stay in Warframe have I been softlocked from effectively playing the content without clear target on how to improve my effectiveness.

 

Over many many months whenever I felt I needed to adjust my build, I knew very well what I was missing and what I need to do to get it. I worked hard for it, griding and knowing that I will get what I want eventually. And that felt respectful to me, my rewards were directly influenced by the amount of work I put it.

 

In comes the Railjack. I have mods installed and RJ is decent. Nice. Now, I need that Zetki Bulkhead and Hyperflux to survive and destroy Veil... but, for both I will probably need a generator that has more than +50 avionics bonus. Alright, let's find a new generator!

So I get into missions, drop 9 of them. None of them are better. My clanmate gets 2nd which is over 100 avionics. This fills my cup slowly. Why the game, which I love and respect for its approach to people putting their hours into the game, is suddenly starting to disrespect the time I've put into it? I have amazing AW gun, so I can easily do Veil this way. But I can no longer chase the players who simply had better luck than me at this point with my own RJ. Lately I've found myself just joining other people's Railjacks simply because they are stronger and I cannot do anything to improve mine as long as I do not find a better RNG generator... which I am not getting even from the missions with those random people or clanmates.

For the first time ever since playing Warframe I feel I do not have a target I can set for myself to reach in a measurable amount of time. While other people are enjoying Veil with their Railjacks because they happened to get better drops, I am stuck with my own due to inability to improve it in any reliable way due to being stuck behind RNG reactor restrictions.

I wanted to fly my OWN Railjack. Be a proud owner of a vehicle I've put work, resources and time into. Now instead of being up there with happy people who can fly their strong Railjacks to use them effectively in combat, I am anchored to the ground until I find a better RNG gear. Which will then take ridiculous amounts of resources to repair... ...resources from Railjack missions let's add.

 

Getting a Vidar generator which is significantly more capable in Avionics increase than Zetki is already hard. Adding another layer which gives it a possibility of still being useless is an overkill for me. I cannot enjoy Railjack this way. In a game which has so far been about powergaming and enjoyment of you being an allmighty being eradicating your enemies, to suddenly be forced to comply with using suboptimal gear to struggle without realistic timetable on when your gameplay will improve, because it is no longer up to you to decide?

For the first time I am absolutely disappointed with DE. Even Kuva Liches were passable for me, because you could always trade one gun for another as they hold same MR fodder value to many people. Weapon % bonuses don't influence the game that much either because you have plenty of other weaponry options if you wish. But Railjack? Even with introduction of trading, your time spent in game is no longer valued in the same amount as work spent by your fellow player. You can put 100 hours into grind and won't get the piece of gear you need to progress efficiently, while somebody else will drop it in 2 hours and will then sell it to you at insane price putting you even more behind.

 

I've spent a good few hundreds of $ for cosmetics and speeding up progress because I felt that I knew PRECISELY what I am getting and for what price. No RNG = no doubts on your money spent. Ivara Prime came out. I love her to bits. Farmed her and constructed immediately. I was considering Prime Accessories pack and... I didn't buy it. I still want it, but I no longer trust the game is heading in the direction I want to support financialy. The game ceases to value the time I'm putting in it equally to all the others. I'm a person who will play around with mods, varying all the levels of them instead of maxing them to squeeze out that 2.5% more ability strength on Chroma while keeping the Vex cost rise from 94 -> 98 so I can still recast it after 1 energy pulse. But it's 2.5%!

If I cannot optimize my gear and compare it with clanmates/people because my RNG was not good enough, this is where my fun stops. And this is where my support stops as well.

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23 hours ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

...I'd like to know if it's turning in to just another grinder with RNG progression masquerading as content. This is now the third set of random stats they've added to the game, and as long as I keep playing I'm going to keep giving them feedback on how much I hate it.

I don't post here, almost ever.

But I had to login to vocalize my agreement with these sentiments and the sentiments expressed in this thread by those such as RedDirtTrooper, Volrind, and Steel_Rook.

They layered RNG in systems like Rivens, Liches, and Railjack are not true to Warframe's core progression, not as I have known it to be. Approaching new players who look on in awe at the amazing weapons we have, and being able to say, "You can do this too!" was far more inviting than, "I have a near-perfect riven; you'll never achieve this as well."

This is exactly what these systems have felt like. A cash grab lazy system toward endless "content"--except DE should realize that more play-time does not necessarily correspond to more financial support. I'm very curious about whether they have really seen increased revenue correlated with these RNG systems. Are they really getting more money from their "whales" from these RNGs? Or do they see more from better cosmetics, approachable systems, etc.? [Presumably, someone important is claiming Rivens have shown a lot of money incoming, but trading plat must be less efficient for them than buys from the in game store.]

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I'm exactly on the same boat as the OP. When the Empyrean demo launched, I literally dreamed of being able to pilot a Railjack and explore space in the Origin System, fighting off Grineer and discovering dark, world-changing secrets. However, since the mode's launch, I've largely held off of it, not simply because of all the bugs and balance problems, but because the RNG equipment system puts me off severely. I don't want to farm for hours just to compare stats among two randomly-generated bits of loot, and I stuck to Warframe precisely because I was promised that the loot I'd obtain wouldn't be designed in such a way that I'd have to farm it over and over again just for it to be good. Warframe stood out among looter shooters precisely because it didn't try to do a Diablo or Anthem and fill the player's inventory with random trash, and I really do not understand why the developers would want to sacrifice that uniqueness in a manner that cheapens the game's loot system, outside of some desperate desire to manufacture replay value. It's this rather depressing moment where I feel the playerbase is practically begging DE to go in one direction, i.e. design updates that connect properly to the rest of the game and add to its entire value, all while the developers go the complete opposite way, in this case by continuing to design throwaway content padded by some really unpleasant and downright disrespectful grinding mechanics. I don't think this is going to meaningfully increase Railjack's replay value, and if DE really wanted to make us play more Railjack, they should have implemented it as a proper connection to all of our locations in the Origin System, rather than just an extra set of Archwing missions.

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On 2019-12-17 at 8:08 PM, RedDirtTrooper said:

I'd love to not feel that way, and goodness knows I fight against the urge to let stuff like this ruin games for me, but that doesn't mean that there's not a tiny little voice in the back of my mind saying that anything but a perfect roll is junk, and that I haven't really gotten the "real" item and should keep grinding away at it until I do. I fully recognize that this urge towards optimization and max rolls isn't necessary, but that doesn't stop me from feeling like it is.

I don't mean to be rude, but that does sound like a personal problem. I don't see why we should put that on the devs. Just look at it as the chance to be surprised later, especially since not only do so damn MANY weapons drop, but we only get so many resources (which, honestly, I want addressed). We can just repair them up over time and "Oh, hey, this one turned out better." and... yay, new gear. I see this as a positive aspect over mods - because with mods, once you have them, you're done, and can't get any more gains. (outside a better Riven, which is... hey look, RNG stats!) It means that anytime I'm playing Railjack just for fun, or helping a newer player with it, I could potentially be surprised and get something out of it instead of just accruing more resources I don't need (anymore).
I can see why some people would prefer to just be done, but the idea that there is still potential to find an even better option is actually enticing to me. I just wish they did it in a more exciting way, like in other looters. Admittedly, the current set-up doesn't work the way Diablo's loot system does, encouraging people to keep side-grades for different builds but instead just giving you a random possibility of a better item. It's something I want to see them figure out and be better at.

I guess if you got nothing else to do in game, why not hunt it down? I would just say... if you're not having fun doing it, don't do it. Not every aspect of the game is fun for every person.

On 2019-12-17 at 11:01 AM, H0B0Z said:

until the community decides which MK III stats are "acceptable".

Screw what the community thinks, I'd prefer to get the gear that works for me.

 

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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48 минут назад, DrakeWurrum сказал:

I don't mean to be rude, but that does sound like a personal problem. I don't see why we should put that on the devs.

This forum is apparently the panopticum of folks with various problems. Just you look at the warframes feedback. Everybody wants reworks and changes just because they have some kind of problem.

And it does not matter if you want to be rude or not, you'll always be white knight dumbo jumbo for them. Don't even bother.

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On 2019-12-17 at 5:01 PM, H0B0Z said:

It's having a similar effect on me. I repaired one item and promptly decided not to repair anything else until the community decides which MK III stats are "acceptable". Until then I'm sticking to clan researched components. I could care less about "god roles".

This here is pretty much what I'm doing. I'm not building any of the stuff because I still occasionally find things which are better than the unbuilt/repaired stuff and that repairing something is incredibly expensive. Because of this, my railjack is still complete crap (starter everything) and I therefore do not fly it. And since I don't fly it, I have no incentive to try and improve it. It's this strange combination of being punished for playing the game and rewarded for not playing it.

I've said this before, but the point still remains.

DE: you have a gambling problem and you really need to find some help for it.

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On 2019-12-16 at 6:33 PM, Sitchrea said:

It's only three parts, though. Only the Shield Arrays, Engines, and Reactors are RNG. Everything else is static. I don't see why everyone is in such a tizzy over them.

Just fyi, this is not true, and I'm trying to figure out the ranges now:

 

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On 2019-12-18 at 4:42 AM, Lost_Cartographer said:

Last hotfix gave weapons random fire rate bonuses, photor getting damage instead because, you know, beam weapon.  However, it seems like only weapons collected AFTER the hotfix have this fire rate bonus?

Dumb unrelated question: Was this retroactive? I have only a SINGLE weapon with a random bonus stat listed. All the others list nothing and show standardised stats. It feels like only weapons earned AFTER the patch have the pointless RNG added to them.

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5 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Dumb unrelated question: Was this retroactive? I have only a SINGLE weapon with a random bonus stat listed. All the others list nothing and show standardised stats. It feels like only weapons earned AFTER the patch have the pointless RNG added to them.

Only weapons collected from repair after the patch seem to have the not-pointless RNG added to them.  Not mentioned anywhere that I can see, but that's been my observation so far.

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5 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

Only weapons collected from repair after the patch seem to have the not-pointless RNG added to them.  Not mentioned anywhere that I can see, but that's been my observation so far.

Wait, hold on. "Collected from repair?" But the one weapon I have with the pointless RNG is still in Wreckage form. It shows a +30% fire rate if I recall correctly and still asks me to repair it. Or did you mean weapons picked up FOR repair?

Either way, though, what you're saying is that weapons we had from before the patch DID NOT get RNG elements retroactively added to them? OK, and than you for the heads-up.

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2 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Wait, hold on. "Collected from repair?" But the one weapon I have with the pointless RNG is still in Wreckage form. It shows a +30% fire rate if I recall correctly and still asks me to repair it. Or did you mean weapons picked up FOR repair?

Either way, though, what you're saying is that weapons we had from before the patch DID NOT get RNG elements retroactively added to them? OK, and than you for the heads-up.

When I collected some wreckage before the patch but hadn't repaired it, seems it still got the bonus.  Mine did anyway.  The weapons I had already put back together and claimed though?  No bonuses.

Edited by Lost_Cartographer
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1 minute ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

When I collected some wreckage before the patch but hadn't repaired it, seems it still got the bonus.  Mine did anyway.  The weapons I had already put back together and claimed though?  No bonuses.

Hmm... So my wreckage won't have had bonuses applied to them, but might roll for bonuses once the item is repaired. Interesting... No joke, thanks for taking the time to explain this.

I can also attest that weapons already repaired prior to the patch DID NOT get RNG elements added to them. I have a Zetki Apoc MkI that I hate, and it didn't get anything.

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7 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Hmm... So my wreckage won't have had bonuses applied to them, but might roll for bonuses once the item is repaired. Interesting... No joke, thanks for taking the time to explain this.

I can also attest that weapons already repaired prior to the patch DID NOT get RNG elements added to them. I have a Zetki Apoc MkI that I hate, and it didn't get anything.

No promises.  All anecdote here.  Still getting daily hotfixes after all.

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10 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I have a Zetki Apoc MkI that I hate

Not gonna lie, I hate everything but the Carcinnox. Thought I was gonna enjoy the Photor, but then tried a MK1 and the heat build-up makes it nearly unusable. Maybe I just need to get more Gunnery Intrinsics.

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Just now, DrakeWurrum said:

Not gonna lie, I hate everything but the Carcinnox. Thought I was gonna enjoy the Photor, but then tried a MK1 and the heat build-up makes it nearly unusable. Maybe I just need to get more Gunnery Intrinsics.

I like the Apoc itself, it's just the Zetki version is absolute ass. Lots of damage per hit, but it overheats in ~12 shots. For an autocannon, that's bad enough to be unusable. In fact, all the Zetki Turrets seem to be absolutely dreadful for the same reason - four times the heat build-up of every other variant. I'm glad that there's some degree of choice and the Zetki Apoc hits like a TRAIN. However, it's just not usable over time. Spike damage might be good, but only if your aim is spot on. I like to have a little leeway. The Carcinox... Now that's my gun of choice for the sides. Decent DPS, fast rate of fire and high projectile velocity make it easier to hit fighters on orthogonal trajectories... It's hilariously inaccurate, though 🙂

 

7 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

No promises.  All anecdote here.  Still getting daily hotfixes after all.

Fair point. I just don't expect DE to tweak already-existing items, is all. They might tweak them from wreckage to turret, though. That's the bit I hadn't thought of.

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10 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

I don't mean to be rude, but that does sound like a personal problem. I don't see why we should put that on the devs. Just look at it as the chance to be surprised later, especially since not only do so damn MANY weapons drop, but we only get so many resources (which, honestly, I want addressed). We can just repair them up over time and "Oh, hey, this one turned out better." and... yay, new gear. I see this as a positive aspect over mods - because with mods, once you have them, you're done, and can't get any more gains. (outside a better Riven, which is... hey look, RNG stats!) It means that anytime I'm playing Railjack just for fun, or helping a newer player with it, I could potentially be surprised and get something out of it instead of just accruing more resources I don't need (anymore).
I can see why some people would prefer to just be done, but the idea that there is still potential to find an even better option is actually enticing to me. I just wish they did it in a more exciting way, like in other looters. Admittedly, the current set-up doesn't work the way Diablo's loot system does, encouraging people to keep side-grades for different builds but instead just giving you a random possibility of a better item. It's something I want to see them figure out and be better at.

I guess if you got nothing else to do in game, why not hunt it down? I would just say... if you're not having fun doing it, don't do it. Not every aspect of the game is fun for every person.

Screw what the community thinks, I'd prefer to get the gear that works for me.

 

I am not putting it on the devs, I'm telling them how their decision to add RNG stats to loot makes me, and players like me, feel. I'm also letting them know that the lack of these kind of RNG systems was one of the things that made me fall in love with the game. I understand some players, like you, feel the opposite. All any of us can do is give feedback on how DE's choices effect us, personally. What DE decides to do with it is up to them.

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8 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

I like the Apoc itself, it's just the Zetki version is absolute ass. Lots of damage per hit, but it overheats in ~12 shots. For an autocannon, that's bad enough to be unusable. In fact, all the Zetki Turrets seem to be absolutely dreadful for the same reason - four times the heat build-up of every other variant. I'm glad that there's some degree of choice and the Zetki Apoc hits like a TRAIN. However, it's just not usable over time. Spike damage might be good, but only if your aim is spot on. I like to have a little leeway. The Carcinox... Now that's my gun of choice for the sides. Decent DPS, fast rate of fire and high projectile velocity make it easier to hit fighters on orthogonal trajectories... It's hilariously inaccurate, though 🙂

Maybe that's why I hated my Photor MK1. It was a Zetki, barely lasted 5 seconds (giggity). Definitely noticed a huge increase in heat build-up for the Zetki cannons that I have, and hate it muchly.

I'm tempted now to use the dojo research version of the weapons, but that takes away resources from being able to repair better ones...

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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