DE, it's time. Vacuum simply makes no sense as a mod anymore.

[(PSN)DeZaruu]

Greetings,

So a lot of the devstreams in 2019 have talked about how remasters had focus on mobility and lots of the gameplay changes/additions have time to improve the mobility/flow of the game.

I read the vacuum changes to AW and RJ in the PC hotfixes and had a talk with a friend who also play WF.

You want to avoid "mandatory mods", but having Fetch/Vacuum on a companion is mandatory in order to keep the flow of the game quick, otherwise you've to carefully make sure you keep on looting ammo, materials, etc.

Vacuum should honestly be a standard for frames at this point. It simply doesn't make sense to have it as a mod when losing companion/not using the mod, goes against the type of gameplay you're working to improve with every patch. I think this is the first game I've played of its kind, where there's no vacuum on the main character . and this is by far the game which wants to keep you moving the most.

It just doesn't add up at all.

I'd suggest a simple test - disable all types of vacuum on your devbuild till the next mainline. If you don't find that it affects your gameplay, I might simply be playing terribly - but I'd take a guess that within a day or two you'd go "alright, without vacuum this sucks, maybe he is onto something about it being a big factor of the gameplay pacing"

[LSG501]

1 minute ago, (PS4)DeZaruu said:

I'd suggest a simple test - disable all types of vacuum on your devbuild till the next mainline. If you don't find that it affects your gameplay, I might simply be playing terribly - but I'd take a guess that within a day or two you'd go "alright, without vacuum this sucks, maybe he is onto something about it being a big factor of the gameplay pacing"

They'd likely need to disable ALL their devhacks for it to actually make any sort of difference to their gaming experience.... godmode, infinite resources etc mean they basically have no need for vacuum...

 

Also just a small side note... the warframes do actually have a universal built in vacuum now, it's about 3m iirc, so while tiny it is there. 

[krc473]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)DeZaruu said:

You want to avoid "mandatory mods", but having Fetch/Vacuum on a companion is mandatory in order to keep the flow of the game quick, otherwise you've to carefully make sure you keep on looting ammo, materials, etc.

I disagree. I don't think it is a mandatory mod. I never really bothered with Vacuum/Fetch and I have no issues at all. It is only 'mandatory' because you are used to it. Why not spend a few days/hours without it and see what happens. 

 

I am not against removing the mod and giving the frames a larger innate vacuum.

[kapn655321]

In archwing I would agree that at the very least, the range could be much larger.

On ground though, I've never once felt vacuum a pressing concern in mission.
Some folks do, and I respect that.. Personally, I went without vacuum for years,
and still sometimes do.

Perhaps more Vacuum options, like a mod that has health and vacuum,
but is practically interchangeable with Vitality.. an exilus that trades shield
regen rate for base vacuum increase.

Our frames already do have 2m radius or something.
They could play with that base pretty easy.
Maybe an Arcane?

Though really niche, there are some advantages to not picking up everything
right away.

If you're into Khora, you're also able to use both Fetch and Vacuum.

Being able to nuke a whole map and just pull things from every room 30m away
really trivializes the point of exploring and looting.
..perhaps that's exactly the point. Maybe you're tired of looting.

I'm not though.
Making a way to negate that exploration means, making it the most efficient method.
...and that means people hate exploritive players even worse than now.
But, that's just my take on it.

Edited December 16, 2019 by kapn655321

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

It took years to get to where we are with vacuum, one small step at a time, with DE internal debates and community white knights against univac.

While fully agreeing I see this as a lost cause given what we already have. There's always someone against player freedom and satisfaction, whether company-side, or community side. Even when such a thing is blatantly obvious.

Edited December 17, 2019 by (PS4)Hikuro-93

[(PSN)DeZaruu]

19 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

Maybe you're tired of looting.

Oh, I'm not! But if the range is 2m atm, I honestly feel it should be upped to 6m (whatever half of what a companion has now, as it doesn't need that much). 

I've played without it for a day as I kept forgetting a companion after a riven, and it felt so frustrating - the ammo was definitely the easiest way I could tell. Reading the comments above, I can see - and admit - it's a QoL I'm used to from every game I've ever played.

However, a Parazon Mod which adds 3m or even an Amalgam Mod for Exilus would be great options, too.

2m is just too little to matter imo, I still have to stand right on top of the items really.

I still stand by that it's counterintuitive to not have a noticable vacuum in a game which wants you to keep moving. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by (PS4)DeZaruu

[kapn655321]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)DeZaruu said:

However, a Parazon Mod which adds 3m or even an Amalgam Mod for Exilus would be great options, too.

An arcane, an augment for a frame you like, Even a Stim pak if you know you want it more for one mission than any other.
They've made affinity range increase consumables that I use all the time.. no reason that wouldn't work.

Also worth trying out Khora. With Fetch and Vacuum you get +25m.
Not sure if it works exactly like that sounds, since I don't use Khora.

Hey, even if it's not a concern to me, I hope it gets addressed in some way that suits you. 😃
Best of luck.

Edited December 17, 2019 by kapn655321

[Uhkretor]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)DeZaruu said:

I still stand by that it's counterintuitive to not have a noticable vacuum in a game which wants you to keep moving.

You're probably not playing the same game we do. My game wants me to make sure everything is dead before I am.

[kapn655321]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)DeZaruu said:

wants you to keep moving

It may compel you to do so for the sake of players or certain objectives,
but there's few occasions that require you hustle.
The reward per minute optimization and loot thrill is there, sure.
That might just be another way to play, rather than the main clear objective.

Example: This game doesn't need me to chase nano spores anymore.
I may be perfectly content (post loot) to just camp and headshot.
(Not in public, as other people have places to be, but) Overall in game,
it's not (always or exactly) required.

Edited December 17, 2019 by kapn655321

[(PSN)DeZaruu]

1 minute ago, Uhkretor said:

You're probably not playing the same game we do. My game wants me to make sure everything is dead before I am.

They've literally remastered a planet with mobility/speed in mind.

And even if everything is dead, I seriously doubt the devs go "then you slow down, loot everything and kill the pace entirely!"

Even when you see the devs play, it's not like they kill everything within eye sight before they move

 

@ Kapn655321  Not super thrilled with Khora, plus I don't actually want it to be larger (or even as large) as what we've now via companions. I just noticed how much it slows down the pace when there's no companion by you, which just seems like such an odd design decision. 

But 100% can see why sometims not looting can be handy, so making it an option would be a better call

[Uhkretor]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)DeZaruu said:

They've literally remastered a planet with mobility/speed in mind.

Do tell me which one, because they all feel the same to me.

13 minutes ago, (PS4)DeZaruu said:

And even if everything is dead, I seriously doubt the devs go "then you slow down, loot everything and kill the pace entirely!"

... Do you know what "Loot while you move" is? That's what I do between kills...

[NightmareT12]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

It took years to get to where we are with vacuum, one small step at a time, with DE internal debates and community white knights against univac.

While fully agreeing I see this as a lost cause given what we already have. There's always someone against player freedom and satisfaction, whether company-side, or community side. Even when such a thing is blatantly obvious.

I mean, this is disregarding that sometimes you just don't want to suck the energy orbs because it can be counterproductive. There's times I avoid them on purpose to not waste them, for instance.

The problem is Vacuum affects *everything* and not just pure resources (ie. Argon Crystals!) or mods, which I don't think anyone would have a problem with, and the mod is the best chance at having some sort of happy middle ground.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

9 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

I mean, this is disregarding that sometimes you just don't want to suck the energy orbs because it can be counterproductive. There's times I avoid them on purpose to not waste them, for instance.

The problem is Vacuum affects *everything* and not just pure resources (ie. Argon Crystals!) or mods, which I don't think anyone would have a problem with, and the mod is the best chance at having some sort of happy middle ground.

That is also true. Perhaps a middle ground could be found. While agreeing to an inate vacuum I sure don't really feel like I'm missing out on a lot of power over the inclusion of a 7-point mod.

[NightmareT12]

41 minutes ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

That is also true. Perhaps a middle ground could be found. While agreeing to an inate vacuum I sure don't really feel like I'm missing out on a lot of power over the inclusion of a 7-point mod.

I was thinking about making Vacuum a proper switch through a special rule in the exilus system: Make a special exilus mod for companions that doesn't require unlocking, and Vacuum be added there as a costless mod.

A literal switch through the modding screen 😛

[Uhkretor]

Although not against univac, which already exists, there's a limit between being a player and acting like Vay Hek.

A player may need a small increment on univac benefit... And I agree due to the simple fact that there are stuff inside walls and other obstacles that renders us unable to collect even with the current univac range.

 

... Another thing is requiring so much "freedom" that it pretty much spells out "I'm too important for this nonsense.". As far as I know, Vay Hek's attitude is met with lead, be it from Vay Hek or otherwise.

 

Do keep in mind that DE makes changes based on the "give and take" system. And they're more likely to take away rather than give out. Want those items? DE states that you should either plan your movement, or either adapt/divert from your bullet jump nonsense and pick the stuff up... After all, you'll be getting them sooner or later, and better sooner than later.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

It’s staying a mod

[AperoBeltaTwo]

It never made sense as a mod.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

Anyone who wants to say that DE wants to "Avoid" "mandatory mods" is either a fool or is working for DE. 

They regularly change up their "mandatory mods" by an infinitesimally small amount so that what once was great is now trash and what once was trash is now great, that's not balance, it's just keeping people entertained. 

[sitfesz]

It was always time to ditch the mod for legit univac.

Arguments against that are:
- I don't want to pick up energy orb/health orb/ammo
(exclude these items with a toggle option, problem solved)
- I want to wait rng charm before looting
(charm is bad and should be changed, it shouldn't hold back univac and you never get a proc anyway when it's needed)
- I never used vacuum and I'm fine without it
(same toggle option and if you insist a gun to shoot yourself in the knee)

Anyone who is against univac, please tell me the real reasons you are against it which has no solution to provide for both sides other than you want others to suffer.

[Althaline]

I, too, remember the time when Carrier saw a >70% usage rate, and DE looked at it and went "no it can't possibly be the Vacuum that we've left unique to Carrier all this time" and left it alone for another year or 2.

[kapn655321]

5 minutes ago, Iamabearlulz said:

I, too, remember the time when Carrier saw a >70% usage rate, and DE looked at it and went "no it can't possibly be the Vacuum that we've left unique to Carrier all this time" and left it alone for another year or 2.

It was also that Carrier was the only one with relative survive-ability, in a time before mods that healed or revived your companion.
..That and it had the best gun. (Sweeper compared to Burst Laser/Laser Rifle/Deth Machine Rifle? No contest, whatsoever.)

So yes vacuum was a big factor.. but all other factors also pointed to Carrier.

[Althaline]

16 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

It was also that Carrier was the only one with relative survive-ability, in a time before mods that healed or revived your companion.
..That and it had the best gun. (Sweeper compared to Burst Laser/Laser Rifle/Deth Machine Rifle? No contest, whatsoever.)

So yes vacuum was a big factor.. but all other factors also pointed to Carrier.

Kubrows had far better survivability than sentinels, and Deconstructor has long since outstripped Sweeper of its title. The only other companions that even saw use were Helios and Smeeta. Notice that now that Vacuum is available on all sentinels, and animals get Fetch, we see cats everywhere. It was always about Vacuum, no question.

[MasterJ93]

Like with a lot of things in here, I think there should be a compromise. I realize that both groups (DE and the community) will hate compromise and will reason why their way is the only good way, but when you have two groups that disagree with each other, you need to have to find a common ground. I think this is good enough, but there can be more ways. In terms of compromise, I suggest that we can have a universal vacuum, but it must not be as far reaching as the max range of those mods. I would suggest it would be around 50–70% of what the max range is (as a slider from 0–(50–70)%.

For me, the main issue with regards to this is with marking resources. Sometimes, when new players ask for helping in getting loot, I do so, but I either have to remove the vacuum mod or remove the Sentinel itself in order to mark the resource before they're sucked up by my Helios or Smeeta. Or there's those that aren't necessarily asking for help in getting resources, but I would like to help some people out regardless. I shouldn't need to turn vacuum off and on mid-mission (thereby using up time that can be used to help out my squad complete the objective). This is especially true for consoles (PC players are probably able to do that quickly—like, maybe 5 seconds; console players will have to take a much longer time to do so).

In fact, DE has compromised before. For example: the glitch that prompted them to create the bullet-jump. Sure, it had a shorter distance compared to the glitch (I honestly can't remember the name of it), but it was the compromise that allowed players to get what they wanted without sacrificing too much on DE's vision of the game. There's also universal Blink: it's on every Archwing, but the ability to spam it is gutted a little (unless you gained enough of the intrinsics) and the distance isn't as long, but at the end of the day, we still got what we wanted, and DE doesn't feel like it's impeding on how they'd like the game to be played (whatever that may be).

That's my view on the matter, anyway.

[Althaline]

6 minutes ago, (NSW)MasterJ93 said:

but it must not be as far reaching as the max range of those mods.

We already got this, it's not good enough. You can't say "Univac" until we actually get a universal Vacuum.

[MasterJ93]

Just now, Iamabearlulz said:

We already got this, it's not good enough. You can't say "Univac" until we actually get a universal Vacuum.

So you're basically saying that you don't want to compromise. Well, I'm saying that you can have vacuum, but it can't be as high as the max range of that mod. Just like how the bullet jump and universal Blink has same concessions, universal vacuum will have small concessions as well, to make both groups happy. People will get upset that they didn't get 100% what they want, but at the end of the day, we got it. I don't consider what you mentioned as a "vacuum."