So the point of Baza Prime and Aksomati Prime is.....?

[Pizzarugi]

58 minutes ago, (XB1)KnightSlayer411 said:

They should go to power creep because the game at a certain point if you plag long enough in a mission, it will REQUIRE that power creep.

No. No it does not. The game goes up as far as level 100 which is gated behind kuva floods, sorties, or rank 5 Liches. DE doesn't officially recognize any levels higher than that, thus they have no reason to balance things for anything higher. Stat-wise, Baza Prime and Aksomati Prime are absolutely fine for the content we have access to. They don't need to have some crazy bonus powers or huge bumps in stats to be superior.

[Andele3025]

58 minutes ago, (XB1)KnightSlayer411 said:

Yes they should have different rivens disposition if the Prime variants are significantly stronger. It's common sense.

If they're going to start releasing weak Primes, then R.I.P to their prime access.

 

48 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

I see your point, but lore wise, since most of vanilla Tenno weapons are lower tech copy of prime weapons, it make sense for them to be little different to balance what is missing

No. By DEs own admission, rivens are their own system only intended to balance weapons strengths up to current cap based on popularity (which its failing at already because of greed). The best upgrade of a weapon is the point of balance of the weapon. A MK1, a tenno 3dprinter replica and a prime/wraith/prisma/detron/whatever else are all merely versions of the same weapon and should all be treated the same. Encouraging gacha gambling trash and greed is bad.

By the "oh each version of the same weapon should have its own dispo despite it either being upgrades or at worst side grades" """logic""" DE should implement warframe rivens with default 1.5 weighting/5stars for everyone with a excal prime.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

2 hours ago, Reifnir said:

And that's why Riven dispositions need to be set to 1.0 and never, EVER touched again. Because if there's anything we learned in all these miserable years of riven rng and dispo shifts, it's that it DOES NOT WORK

I wish they would. 

[MJ12]

The better a weapon is baseline, the less powerful, relatively speaking, the Prime upgrades tend to be. The Baza was a very good primary weapon, and the Baza Prime is literally a better Baza. With a 3.0 crit multiplier and a 28% versus 24% crit chance, assuming you have at least point strike + vital sense equipped to modify your crits you're getting a final 6.6x crit multiplier and 70% versus 60% crit chance, meaning that on average, your shots deal (0.3 x 1) + (0.7 x 6.6) = 4.92x damage, versus (0.4 x 1) + (0.6 x 6.6) = 4.36x damage. In other words, you've got a 13% average per-shot damage increase, with no loss of fire rate or any other stat, which is small but actually significant.

Especially since one of the Baza's weaknesses is its tiny magazine and a 27% faster reload and 50% larger magazine are a significant upgrade to the Baza P's sustained damage output.

The standard Baza empties its 40 round magazine in 2.4 seconds, then takes 1.4 seconds to reload, firing 40 rounds in 3.8 seconds. Factoring reloads into its firing cycle, and ignoring RoF mods, the Baza puts out 631.5 rounds per minute sustained.

The Baza Prime empties its 60 round magazine in 3.6 seconds, then takes 1.1 seconds to reload, firing 60 rounds in 4.7 seconds. Again, factoring reloads into the firing cycle and ignoring RoF mods, the Baza Prime puts out 765.9 rounds per minute sustained.

But wait? What if we add primed shred in there? A maxed Primed Shred increases the Baza's fire rate to 25.84, meaning that the standard Baza empties its magazine in 1.55 seconds flat, then takes 1.4 seconds to reload, firing 40 rounds in 2.95 seconds, or 813.55 rpm. A Baza P empties its magazine in 2.32 seconds, then takes 1.1 seconds to reload, firing 60 rounds in 3.42 seconds, or 1052.6 rpm. That's a 29.4% increase in rounds per minute.

So it does 13% more damage per shot, and over a sustained engagement puts out somewhere between 21.2% to 29.4% more bullets. Being able to deal anywhere from 37% to 46.2% more damage in a minute against enemies is a pretty significant advantage, even ignoring that the increased damage falloff ranges mean you're more likely to be hitting for full, rather than reduced, damage. At 28 meters, the Baza P is still doing 100% of its maximum damage, while the Baza is doing 75% normal damage. At 34 meters, the Baza P is dealing 93% of its full damage, while the Baza is dealing 50% of its normal damage. In other words, practically speaking, the Baza P's sustained damage advantage is actually even higher than 37 to 46%.

[George_PPS]

3 hours ago, (XB1)KnightSlayer411 said:

Seriously DE, if you're gonna make us Farm/Buy primes, at least make them worth the Money or Time Wasted in farming them.

Anyone also feel that DE doesn't care or respect players' time and money spent or invested in the game? The new paradigm is that anything too /fun to use or powerful  must and will be nerfed.

[George_PPS]

2 hours ago, Maxim_M_Payne said:

The true thing to be alarmed about is the complete aesthetic conflict of pretty much every detail on Aksomati Prime. Disregarding the pitiful stat "changes", I'm highly suspicious DE has been borderline slave-driving the art team to rush out Prime Access faster and faster. Nothing about their form language as dual pistols suggests the product of a healthily leninent deadline or creative talent that was given the time to actually unify their look and refine the work. 

When something not only barely resembles its "vanilla" weapon counterpart, but its individual segments look like they came from different creative teams working on three to five separate guns, I get real @#!%$%ing nosy about how a company is treating its artists. They do not look like weapons that resulted from artists being given enough time or a low-stress environment.

DE has done enough to dissappoint me this year; the possiblity, even remotely, that they've started treating their creative teams the way that "quality" American mega-corps like EA do is the icing on a truly noxious cake.

I'm not going to uninstall quite yet, but 2019's holiday season marks me officially growing too suspicious of business ethics at DE to purchase a single thing in-game in good conscience. I try, however futilely, to be an ethical consumer; and I am not spending one cent on a cosmetic or rushed item's worth of Platinum until I have a verified, non-coerced reassurance from one of the artists themselves; written independantly and outside of company grounds, that they weren't mistreated. 

There's been a lot of things handled suspiciously poorly this year, including Melee 3.0; so let me extend my sentiment to say that I'm suspicious about coders, artists, writers, and de-buggers being abused as well. The company seems oddly understaffed, and I keep getting an unpleasant feeling they are not properly treating the staff that's there.

 

 

Something really changed since late 2018. New updates of the game and the best elements of Warframe are going different  or even conflicting directions. So many nerfs. So many players progress reset. I wondered if the Chinese owners are mistreating DE's development team by paying them less, not hiring  enough people, or even giving the commands to put profits first instead of gaming first so players will support DE more financially. 

[AzureTerra]

3 hours ago, (XB1)KnightSlayer411 said:

Sure fam, go take baza prime against 150s. Tell me how many magazines DIRECTLY to the head you need to take it down without a riven. Go ahead.

Ah yes, the 150s in the Sim ~ the gold standard of weapons testing...

The Point of most of the weapons in the game (Prime or not) is to give you options, If you don't like the look of what the new versions of these two weapon offer then your not required to ever use them or at the very least use them/ holster them on your person while playing something else to get the EXP from them. I am a fan of the Aksomati and while im not sure that the difference will be enough to make me stop using my 8 Forma normal ones having a second set that i can mod differently will be nice.

Edited December 18, 2019 by AzureTerra

[ArchMagisterPrime]

5 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

And no, Baza doesn't start to fade against lvl 80. With the right build, you can still melt lvl 120+ enemies.

Ah yes tell me what 8 mods to use please, I admit I'm very bad when it comes to modding

[bubbabenali]

Their power will be to have no different Riven Disposition than their normal counterpart in the future.

[TicTacTaco]

1 hour ago, ArchMagisterPrime said:

Ah yes tell me what 8 mods to use please, I admit I'm very bad when it comes to modding

I'm not the one who said this, but seeing as my normal Baza does decently without a full forma setup with just viral and hunter munitions, I imagine with a full setup, you could do even better. I used this https://imgur.com/XblzUae I don't have mind modded with primed cryo rounds, but even with rime rounds instead, it still kills all but the most heavily armored level 120 enemies (and that's more that I'm bad at nailing every head shot, so firing in controlled bursts is more efficient) very quickly.

[Greasy_Mullet]

Yes Baza is trash, everyone please use something else.  Nothing to see here, go about your day and enjoy your Ignis and Acceltra.

[(PSN)x-SCARDUST-x]

Well something that has been forgotten is that the Baza is a silence rifle. Do not forget this! There are not so many primary weapons that are silent.

[lukinu_u]

Il y a 8 heures, ArchMagisterPrime a dit :

Ah yes tell me what 8 mods to use please, I admit I'm very bad when it comes to modding

I didn't even used 8 mods.
I tryied with Serration, Split Chamber, Vital Sense, Point Strike, Malgnant Force, Rime Rounds and Hunter munitions which perform well, but it could be better with a corrosive + firerate build if your ok with the low ammo efficiency, especially with the prime that got higher base status.

[Miyabi-sama]

I remember the time when primes were to just show off your dedication and support for the damn game.

Inb4 WhY iNaRoS pRiMe DuZnT hAeV 6 aDdItIoNaL mOd SlOtS.

[DarkOvion]

Honestly, I think if it was a +4% buff for 30% crit, I'd be entirely happy with it.

The +2% for 28% just... bothers me slightly.

[DarkOvion]

1 hour ago, (PS4)x-SCARDUST-x said:

Well something that has been forgotten is that the Baza is a silence rifle. Do not forget this! There are not so many primary weapons that are silent.

While it is, all weapons can now for the application of an exilus weapon slot 😉

Also, 15.5% of all primary weapons are silent. 😛

[(PSN)thegarada]

The point is, as with most weapons, MR fodder.

[(PSN)x-SCARDUST-x]

Sorry should have mentioned that I am talking about rifles and not crossbows or bows. Besides the Baza the Fulmin is the only other rifle that is completely silent. 

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Silent

Yes, you can decrease the noise a weapons does with a mod but as far as I know most of them if not all of them are never completely silent. Also you lose a mod slot for this. I mean it is not a big advantage but it is an advantage. Especially for Ivara´s stealth skill. I also think that this is one reason why they made it not that powerful als the silent ability comes at a cost.

[DarkOvion]

1 minute ago, (PS4)x-SCARDUST-x said:

Sorry should have mentioned that I am talking about rifles and not crossbows or bows. Besides the Baza the Fulmin is the only other rifle that is completely silent. 

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Silent

Yes, you can decrease the noise a weapons does with a mod but as far as I know most of them if not all of them are never completely silent. Also you lose a mod slot for this. I mean it is not a big advantage but it is an advantage. Especially for Ivara´s stealth skill. I also think that this is one reason why they made it not that powerful als the silent ability comes at a cost.

I actually forgot the Fulmin is silent.

So 16.2% of Primaries then. Though yes, if you ignore all the bows and crossbows, it's only 2.6% of non-bow-based-primaries.

And while it's 'giving up a mod slot', it's the 9th Exilus mod slot. Of which the options are... generally poor honestly. (Ammo mutations, +/- zoom (except hawkeye), projectile speed, max ammo cap, holster speed, silence weapon).

At max rank, suppression mods result in entirely silent shots.

[Neightrix]

17 hours ago, Reifnir said:

And that's why Riven dispositions need to be set to 1.0 and never, EVER touched again. Because if there's anything we learned in all these miserable years of riven rng and dispo shifts, it's that it DOES NOT WORK

That would be admitting rivens were never about bringing up weaker weapons to match - which never made sense when DE always had full control to change stats and balance themselves. When rivens launched, there were no dispositions and it just amplified the better weapons while doing nothing for the weaker ones - it was terrible. The absolute RNG is a problem for sure, but DE has no respect for their players' time so it won't change, and they'll make excuses about why rivens can't be long term progress.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Neightrix

[Redpaws]

I'm a little disappointed with how small of a DPS increase the Baza Prime is over the standard version. Was hoping for at least 2-3 more base damage. 5.5/7/5.5 or 6/7/6 IPS, up from 5.8/6.7/3.5 would have been sweet. Make it a bit more rounded damage for sentients, which we'll likely be fighting plenty of whenever the new sentient update + tileset drops. Or some unique quirk the base version doesn't have, like 0.2m punch through to defeat shield lancers more easily. At least the DPM is substantially increased.

Also, why can't we put on Projectile Speed on it? It'd benefit so much from it, bumping the dropoff range from 30-60m to 48-96m.

[(PSN)VoidBeing]

Man. How hard is it to enjoy Warframe? Every single time I open one of these threads, someone is complaining about DE. Do you have any evidence that the creative team is being “abused” or are you trying to blackmail them because you do not like the design of a weapon? OP, I agree the prime stat changes are not big changes, but it is still a better weapon. Not everything is going to slam a heavy gunner down like the precious Tigris Prime. How often are you passing in to the late game that really needs your weapons to do millions of DPS? Sit down and really think about that. Do you need to go for hours in survival? Do you need to defend a payload or excavator for hours, or could you just extract and start the mission again? It would make things a lot easier. Also, the post about riven dispositions for vanilla and prime variants? What the hell? That means that you would need a baza riven and a baza prime riven. That would nearly double the amount of possible rivens you could unveil, think about how much rarer it would be to get the riven for the weapon you wanted.

[Tiltskillet]

Just now, DarkOvion said:

I actually forgot the Fulmin is silent.

So 16.2% of Primaries then. Though yes, if you ignore all the bows and crossbows, it's only 2.6% of non-bow-based-primaries.

And while it's 'giving up a mod slot', it's the 9th Exilus mod slot. Of which the options are... generally poor honestly. (Ammo mutations, +/- zoom (except hawkeye), projectile speed, max ammo cap, holster speed, silence weapon).

At max rank, suppression mods result in entirely silent shots.

To me the interesting subset wouldn't have been silent primaries, but rather silent hit scan weapons.

But it's kind of moot anyway, since I don't consider either Baza a great fit for stealth play aside from the inherent silencer.  (And, like you alluded to, when I want a silent hitscan weapon, modding for it is not much of a sacrifice.  In all but the highest level situations, even if it involves a regular slot, let alone exilus.)

[SamMitter]

20 hours ago, (XB1)KnightSlayer411 said:

I just can't even understand why a prime has almost no difference in stats from the base counterpart.

They feel the SAME as their vanilla versions. Primes are supposed to be way more powerful than their vanilla counterparts.

Seriously, a mere 2% Critical Chance increase for the Baza Prime? You could have given us a nice 32% to make a difference.

And my oh my, the status chance is even worse, you could've made that EASILY a 22% Status Chance but no..... You didn't.

Seriously DE, if you're gonna make us Farm/Buy primes, at least make them worth the Money or Time Wasted in farming them.

You didn't even touch the IPS, the base damage is literally the same as regular Baza. Like, why? It makes no sense.

Aksomati are the same history, they are weak as heck. Same as it regular variant. The stats were barely boosted. Magazine size from 70 to 80? Only 10 bullets, man what a HUGE upgrade.... (not)

Like you didn't even touch Aksomati's Critical Chance..... Why? It's a Prime.... It should have higher Crit.

Again, WHY?

This prime access is the literal definition of not a good Cost/Performance value.

You still got time to open the code a type better stats. Please? I swear, it won't even take 5 minutes to put everything together and drop it in the next HotFix.

PS: I edited the values, it is even worse than I thought. The critical chance  on the Baza was at 26% and for the Baza Prime they boost it to 28%....... Only 2% increase..... WHYYYYY???

Not all weapon upgrade is about CC or status. The base Baza is a damn powerful gun, capable of shredding lvl 120+ heavy gunners. with Point strike and a fair riven you can easily reach around 100% CC; with Hunter Mu, that is the definition of OP. BAZA DOESNT NEED ANY DAMAGE BUFF.

What Baza needed was the QoL changes, which is what exaclty we got. a Hefty increase in magazine size , which we needed, much lower reload, again needed, substantial falloff increase, again needed. As someone, who uses baza a lot, tht was the few changes I expected, and I got. I suggest  rather than simply looking at number, you go and play with it, and find out about the pros and cons. 

 Finally about some of your comment,  you should take a look at the weapn comparisons. except Acceltra (which though auto fire is not a rifle, therefore should not be taken in to account imo ). Baza prime is the 2nd highest in the CC department (highest is 30 of soma/prime, telos boltor,prisma gorgon); highest CD; So it is utterly incomprehensible why you are saying BAZA prime is underpowered.

And in case you wanna point that, your point is what is the pros of primed version over the ordinary one, refer to the 1st para. if you dont think they are not upgrades, my friend, it is impossible to have a discussion with you. 

Ultimately,  Maybe the only one point I may agree with you upto soem degree, is a slight more increase in SC.Although ultimately it doesnot matter that much.

[Snydrex]

22 hours ago, (XB1)KnightSlayer411 said:

Sure fam, go take baza prime against 150s. Tell me how many magazines DIRECTLY to the head you need to take it down without a riven. Go ahead.

Actually...

A Baza prime can very easily kill a level 150 anything with a magazine, maybe even less if it's not a amalgam, even without a riven. Hunter munitions exists, so it's not actually that hard.