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(XB1)KnightSlayer411

So the point of Baza Prime and Aksomati Prime is.....?

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21 hours ago, MJ12 said:

The better a weapon is baseline, the less powerful, relatively speaking, the Prime upgrades tend to be. The Baza was a very good primary weapon, and the Baza Prime is literally a better Baza. With a 3.0 crit multiplier and a 28% versus 24% crit chance, assuming you have at least point strike + vital sense equipped to modify your crits you're getting a final 6.6x crit multiplier and 70% versus 60% crit chance, meaning that on average, your shots deal (0.3 x 1) + (0.7 x 6.6) = 4.92x damage, versus (0.4 x 1) + (0.6 x 6.6) = 4.36x damage. In other words, you've got a 13% average per-shot damage increase, with no loss of fire rate or any other stat, which is small but actually significant.

Especially since one of the Baza's weaknesses is its tiny magazine and a 27% faster reload and 50% larger magazine are a significant upgrade to the Baza P's sustained damage output.

The standard Baza empties its 40 round magazine in 2.4 seconds, then takes 1.4 seconds to reload, firing 40 rounds in 3.8 seconds. Factoring reloads into its firing cycle, and ignoring RoF mods, the Baza puts out 631.5 rounds per minute sustained.

The Baza Prime empties its 60 round magazine in 3.6 seconds, then takes 1.1 seconds to reload, firing 60 rounds in 4.7 seconds. Again, factoring reloads into the firing cycle and ignoring RoF mods, the Baza Prime puts out 765.9 rounds per minute sustained.

But wait? What if we add primed shred in there? A maxed Primed Shred increases the Baza's fire rate to 25.84, meaning that the standard Baza empties its magazine in 1.55 seconds flat, then takes 1.4 seconds to reload, firing 40 rounds in 2.95 seconds, or 813.55 rpm. A Baza P empties its magazine in 2.32 seconds, then takes 1.1 seconds to reload, firing 60 rounds in 3.42 seconds, or 1052.6 rpm. That's a 29.4% increase in rounds per minute.

So it does 13% more damage per shot, and over a sustained engagement puts out somewhere between 21.2% to 29.4% more bullets. Being able to deal anywhere from 37% to 46.2% more damage in a minute against enemies is a pretty significant advantage, even ignoring that the increased damage falloff ranges mean you're more likely to be hitting for full, rather than reduced, damage. At 28 meters, the Baza P is still doing 100% of its maximum damage, while the Baza is doing 75% normal damage. At 34 meters, the Baza P is dealing 93% of its full damage, while the Baza is dealing 50% of its normal damage. In other words, practically speaking, the Baza P's sustained damage advantage is actually even higher than 37 to 46%.

 

You posted all that math and its not as appreciated as it should be.

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32 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

 

You posted all that math and its not as appreciated as it should be.

Math is good. 😄  Though a rather crucial mistake is that standard Baza has 26% crit chance, so the Prime only adds 2% CC, not 4%. Still really wish it had its base damage increased by 2-3, even if they dropped the fire rate to like... 15.0 to compensate. Just something to make it more ammo efficient. Else just boosting the CC further to an even 30%. At least the DPM increase is really nice, just... Wished for a bit more damage to make it more ammo efficient.

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You know what, let's make a petition to DE. Let's make them create all future prime weapons +100 IPS, +100% CC, +100% SC and more. That should be enough powercreep for prime weapons. Let's also make them change all past prime weapons to the same powercreep and standard. Oh, and then let's make them give every new weapon +100 more IPS to create MORE powercreep. Who doesn't want that, right? I'd like to play a game where i can 1-shot every enemy using any weapon. That'd be fun!!

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1 hour ago, Cepheus-EN- said:

You know what, let's make a petition to DE. Let's make them create all future prime weapons +100 IPS, +100% CC, +100% SC and more. That should be enough powercreep for prime weapons. Let's also make them change all past prime weapons to the same powercreep and standard. Oh, and then let's make them give every new weapon +100 more IPS to create MORE powercreep. Who doesn't want that, right? I'd like to play a game where i can 1-shot every enemy using any weapon. That'd be fun!!

Nice strawman buddy.

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12 hours ago, Redpaws said:

Math is good. 😄  Though a rather crucial mistake is that standard Baza has 26% crit chance, so the Prime only adds 2% CC, not 4%. Still really wish it had its base damage increased by 2-3, even if they dropped the fire rate to like... 15.0 to compensate. Just something to make it more ammo efficient. Else just boosting the CC further to an even 30%. At least the DPM increase is really nice, just... Wished for a bit more damage to make it more ammo efficient.

 Math is good but clearly you are unaware of it. -fire rate is a direct ''nerf'' to the overall DPS.

 

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On 2019-12-19 at 6:15 AM, 8faiNt said:

 Math is good but clearly you are unaware of it. -fire rate is a direct ''nerf'' to the overall DPS.

 

His point was to swap some fire rate for base damage to make it more ammo efficient. Maybe he did the math on that already to make sure it was an even swap to DPS, maybe he just threw those numbers out there as an example. I don't know, I didn't check. Don't act like a condescending snob.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Fiddlestixxx said:

His point was to swap some fire rate for base damage to make it more ammo efficient. Maybe he did the math on that already to make sure it was an even swap to DPS, maybe he just threw those numbers out there as an example. I don't know, I didn't check. Don't act like a condescending snob.

Increasing base damage by 2-3 and decrasing the fire rate? I dont even need to do the math to say that it will have less DPS next time dont talk about stuff you didnt check. so, I wont be in the position to be a '' condescending snob '' 

what a joker you are.

Edited by 8faiNt

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, 8faiNt said:

Increasing base damage by 2-3 and decrasing the fire rate? I dont even need to do the math to say that it will have less DPS next time dont talk about stuff you didnt check. so, I wont be in the position to be a '' condescending snob '' 

what a joker you are.

Well, let's see. 16.67 fire rate at 16 damage per shot is 266.72 DPS. 15 fire rate at 18 damage per shot would be... 270 DPS. Wowzers, look at that, it's very slightly more and accomplishes the stated goal of slightly better ammo efficiency.

They were just rough example numbers for the suggestion to begin with, so it shouldn't have really mattered if this worked out or not, but if you wanted to get so angry over the specifics maybe you should have checked it instead of insulting other people for not doing so.

I guess it would mean slightly less corrosive proc stacking, and slightly fewer slash procs but with slightly higher damage. The other flipside being that improved ammo efficiency, with the same magazine size, will also slightly improve long-term damage since it means the firing uptime vs reload time is better.

Edited by OvisCaedo

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, OvisCaedo said:

Well, let's see. 16.67 fire rate at 16 damage per shot is 266.72 DPS. 15 fire rate at 18 damage per shot would be... 270 DPS. Wowzers, look at that, it's very slightly more and accomplishes the stated goal of slightly better ammo efficiency.

They were just rough example numbers for the suggestion to begin with, so it shouldn't have really mattered if this worked out or not, but if you wanted to get so angry over the specifics maybe you should have checked it instead of insulting other people for not doing so.

I guess it would mean slightly less corrosive proc stacking, and slightly fewer slash procs but with slightly higher damage. The other flipside being that improved ammo efficiency, with the same magazine size, will also slightly improve long-term damage since it means the firing uptime vs reload time is better.

Perhaps, I should ve calculated the DPS instead of guessing. I take the guilt. thanks for fixing my misunderstanding. but then again -fire rate is -fire rate. Its not just the raw damage it affects after all

And considering Baza is used with Hunter Mun. Mod for minmax damage I still dont think sacrificing fire rate is a good thing to do. though It would need to be calculated and as you can see I didnt even bother to calculate the raw dps untill you mentioned it to me

so it might turn into a ttk problem rather than a dps problem considering slash procc is everything for baza

Edited by 8faiNt

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Baza is a good weapon, and depending on taste fun. But under no circumstances or in any situation would I ever think of it as a great weapon... and the Prime did not help that a bit.

I am hard pressed to think of any content, where (aside from fun factor) I would want to bring it instead of some better single target weapon, aoe, or armor stripper.

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Yeah, just look at Gram and Gram prime, too OP

Baza and Baza prime, not so supperior.

They made some 2 OP , they made some not so different.

I mean what do you expect? you see their recently works lately ?

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On 2020-01-08 at 4:42 AM, Lers said:

Baza is a good weapon, and depending on taste fun. But under no circumstances or in any situation would I ever think of it as a great weapon... and the Prime did not help that a bit.

I am hard pressed to think of any content, where (aside from fun factor) I would want to bring it instead of some better single target weapon, aoe, or armor stripper.

If you're comparing it to all primaries, do you think it might really be an issue with the auto rifle class?.   If so, I'd think addressing the base problem would be a more effective use of DE's time.

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14 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

If you're comparing it to all primaries, do you think it might really be an issue with the auto rifle class?.   If so, I'd think addressing the base problem would be a more effective use of DE's time.

I guess so, yes? Full auto rifles currently are in general in a sort of weak spot. Not because they are bad, but because they are outmatched in basically all roles by other weapons. One could argue that they are jack of all trades, and I would agree, but with 3 weapon slots we can afford to bring highly specialized weapons in each of them for different situations.

I was around when the Soma P. and Boltor P. were the ultimate rulers of the game, but I'd argue the game changed enough since then that we could handle some reasonable buffs to the auto rifles without the solar system imploding.

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On 2019-12-17 at 3:17 PM, (XB1)KnightSlayer411 said:

14% status is still nothing MY POINT if you read carefully is that it isn't a substantial UPGRADE as it should be.

why? Because it's a PRIME

And no, the Baza was just good against low to mid level enemies. Baza starts to fade as soon as a level 80 comes into place and higher than that it becomes useless.

I taken my baza in games with lvl 150 + enemies still getting touched. but probably because someone cant touch a head with their crosshairs.

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Just for reference initially Prime version of everything meant to be armani of warframe aka better look with slighty better stats and some polarities

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Kindly be noted that the below is my personal opinion and that I do not feel entitled to any kind of demands in this feedback.

It could be a beautiful thing to not have same weapon variants re-released with better attributes.

I understand that Prime is one of the ways to gain financial upkeep for the game and isn't generally impossible to obtain, however it just feels like getting the same feeling weapon forma'ed a few times again once the prime counterpart is out.

Makes me think of a necessary time and resource waste if one wants to rationally balance between a strong equipment and being able to focus on the actually entertaining content. In my opinion grinding on Hydron or (Elite) Sanctuary Onslaught for many hours yearly is not even close to the definition of enjoyable content.

Now what I think of "resource waste" goes both ways. Warframe materials and player time could be dedicated to yet unseen content - a new whip & blade, a fresh revolver, a wheel-lock pistol, and so on - which could have been developed by the team instead of re-releasing vanilla content with a golden finish. A logical exchange of hours from reused content to brand new content for both the players and the developers. Or maybe an entirely new mission type paired up with a newly designed graphic tileset. I personally would like that very much over three or even seven 'new' primes.

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Baza prime is garbage rn and needs a buff, even my akjagara p, twin gremlins, detron, aklex p are way better than baza p and they are seconday weapons... baza prime isn't ok it struggle in high lvl content like sorties.

with baza prime and a HM build (The best and boring build for baza) you need to land all your headshots and empty the mag and wait him to drain off to kill a single heavy gunner, whereas my old ignis wraith i dont even need to land headshots to kill a couple of heavy gunners, just hold 1 button and every enemie in front of you is dead. Baza prime isn't worth spending 4-5 formas again for little qol buffs.

 i'll stick with the ignis wraith or tiberon p, or fulmin, since now they can be ''bazas'' with the exilus mod, so the silenced thing of baza is worthless now.

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If all you care is about bullet dumping and burst DPS, then sorry you will be hella disappointed with many autoguns variants.

Honestly this upgrade is similar to how the Soma Prime when it was released. 
The Soma Prime doesn't even have a damage increase over the Soma (or crit boost), but the main benefit was a large magazine (200 vs 100) and larger ammo reserve (800 vs 540).
In the end the Soma Prime has a tiny better burst DPS (due to faster spool), but greatly better sustained DPS.

This same logic applies to Supra Vandal, again a tiny crit bump but even then it only has 16% crit. 
Which means it ain't doing significantly better than the base Supra anyway,
But again improved mag size and reserve. And accuracy, so you can actually hit targets.
Again burst DPS improvement is nothing remarkable but sustained and applicable DPS is much higher.


The Baza Prime upgrade is similar to those 2 above.
The Baza already has 800 rounds reserve, makes no sense to boost it to silly numbers. 
Baza Prime doesn't have double the mag size over Baza but it still has a substantial 50% increase, because it also had better crit and improved reload.
This sustained DPS completely blows out the Baza out of the water, because you are talking about a difference of 10k+ at least in max modded stat.

 

Edited by fatpig84

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4 hours ago, fatpig84 said:

Honestly this upgrade is similar to how the Soma Prime when it was released. 
The Soma Prime doesn't even have a damage increase over the Soma

Just sayin', the Prime used to have 20% more base damage over the regular Soma for quite a while there.

But I'm not disagreeing with your overall point, just looking at the damage values makes one miss the actual, significant buffs
(to which I wanna add the falloff ranges, you can actually use the Prime from quite a bit further away without heavy DPS losses).

Baza is a very good weapon, Baza Prime is more than a tiny bit better, that's a win, right there.
I'm glad DE didn't go overboard and make it a new towering-above-all-others meta weapon or anything.

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On 2019-12-17 at 5:04 PM, (XB1)KnightSlayer411 said:

if you're gonna make us Farm/Buy primes

>make us

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Questionable design aside, i'm really not convinced that the aksomati prime are better than their base variant if you take into account the ridiculous riven disposition nerf.

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27 minutes ago, TheLordOmega2 said:

Questionable design aside, i'm really not convinced that the aksomati prime are better than their base variant if you take into account the ridiculous riven disposition nerf.

Prime was substantially better with my crit toxin riven in both applied DPS and ammo efficiency.  A more optimal riven would narrow that gap, but whether it would be enough to reverse it I can't say.

I'm also pretty curious to see what happens with both dispositions.

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