Railjack Gun Bonuses Are Tied to The Gun Type

[DaMasque]

Some bad ms paint skills and here we go the Houses of Cryophon... I personally like Vidar, but that's just me.

[SneakyErvin]

4 minutes ago, Renegade343 said:

You pretty much only need to reapply Chem status periodically. And the goal is softening them up enough to be destroyed by other fighters, Lavan's weaker in that regard, so Zekti edges out, because once you soften up one target enough, you switch to another. That depends more on burst DOT than sustained DOT.

I tried using both, Zekti feels much better than Lavan for Carcinnox.

And that's when you learn to release the trigger. Like, has all other weapons you used in Warframe not taught you that?

Besides, not all Zekti has extra RoF as bonus.

You are better off shooting them till they are dead though. Chem is just radiation, nothing more, nothing less. If you are the closest target, he will keep firing at you and just as with radiation, you are all of a sudden relying on enemy damage to kill the enemy, enemy damage that is just as in all other places a very low damage value compared to the actual enemy health. Chem really only helps to take some hate away from you if the enemy gets closer to the chemmed ship.

It is the reason I prefer Vidar, because it has a reliable amount of status while also letting you benefit quite well from crit damage avionics to increase the direct damage further, plus it also lets you fire without a break for far longer. Which means mine carriers and other tougher fighter crafts will die before you reach the overheat point aswell as letting you skip relying on bursts.

When have we ever had a need to actually consider releasing the trigger in the rest of WF? It isnt exactly like reload times have anywhere near the impact that venting or managing heat has, nor are the mobs able to take anywhere near the punishment of the fighters in RJ. Ground combat is mostly a chop-shop for me, turning the enemy into ground beef.

And yeah, not all Zekti have RoF, Photor doesnt, but it is sadly still a uselss Zetki weapon because the heat value that does show in the game is false for all of them. Vidar/Lavan sits at 10 while Zetki sits at 40.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, DaMasque said:

Some bad ms paint skills and here we go the Houses of Cryophon... I personally like Vidar, but that's just me.

Vidar does win in all regards for Cryo too apparently.

Crit is more desirable than status, since Cryo is a 1 hit wonder weapon.

Fire rate is pointless since it is a weapon you wanna aim and lead properly. So the Zetki bonus kinda turns obsolete.

Pure damage shows that Vidar comes out ontop with 7051 vs 6611 with a perfect 60% roll. The ones shown uptop have the Vidar win at 6748 vs 6611.

Looks kinda like Zetki isnt much of an armament choice at all.

[Renegade343]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You are better off shooting them till they are dead though. Chem is just radiation, nothing more, nothing less. If you are the closest target, he will keep firing at you and just as with radiation, you are all of a sudden relying on enemy damage to kill the enemy, enemy damage that is just as in all other places a very low damage value compared to the actual enemy health. Chem really only helps to take some hate away from you if the enemy gets closer to the chemmed ship.

Well, not really. For the fighters, their damage is significant enough against each other to actually consider switching targets, which is nice compared to ground enemies.

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is the reason I prefer Vidar, because it has a reliable amount of status while also letting you benefit quite well from crit damage avionics to increase the direct damage further, plus it also lets you fire without a break for far longer. Which means mine carriers and other tougher fighter crafts will die before you reach the overheat point aswell as letting you skip relying on bursts.

Eeh... not going to rely on 17% status chance with no way to boost it, even if the gun fires fast. And the break is minimal, really. I also think that when you work in all the factors towards DPS, Zekti can reach similar DPS to Lavar/Vidar.

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

When have we ever had a need to actually consider releasing the trigger in the rest of WF? It isnt exactly like reload times have anywhere near the impact that venting or managing heat has, nor are the mobs able to take anywhere near the punishment of the fighters in RJ. Ground combat is mostly a chop-shop for me, turning the enemy into ground beef.

So... you keep firing even when no enemies are around or too far out of range to make you inaccurate? Some weapons do need to release the trigger on occasion, such as Twin Stubbas and the Gorgon family, as a way to manage recoil, or the Gorgon family and the Soma family to keep the fire rate spool up without unnecessarily wasting ammo.

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Fire rate is pointless since it is a weapon you wanna aim and lead properly. So the Zetki bonus kinda turns obsolete.

It's not like Cryophon is a particularly difficult weapon to aim and lead, with its large hitbox and whatnot, so the argument that fire rate is pointless because you need to aim and lead properly is... weak. Better to argue that +% fire rate is pointless because +% fire rate for a 1.00 fire rate is not increasing a lot.

[Skaleek]

1 hour ago, Renegade343 said:

Besides, not all Zekti has extra RoF as bonus.

I think zekti photor has + damage. But it's interesting. If one house has + damage where another has +rof, is it possible that the + damage edges out the weapon due to heat efficiency? This is why i want to build a large set of different turrets to test. Unfortunately, wreckage cap.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Skaleek

[Skaleek]

33 minutes ago, DaMasque said:

Some bad ms paint skills and here we go the Houses of Cryophon... I personally like Vidar, but that's just me.

Can you make more of these? 4 more to be exact? Cause it is awesome. Your ms paint skills do not matter to me, this is incredibly helpful for creating a logical comparison on which house makes the best of each turret type.

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, Renegade343 said:

Well, not really. For the fighters, their damage is significant enough against each other to actually consider switching targets, which is nice compared to ground enemies.

Eeh... not going to rely on 17% status chance with no way to boost it, even if the gun fires fast. And the break is minimal, really. I also think that when you work in all the factors towards DPS, Zekti can reach similar DPS to Lavar/Vidar.

So... you keep firing even when no enemies are around or too far out of range to make you inaccurate? Some weapons do need to release the trigger on occasion, such as Twin Stubbas and the Gorgon family, as a way to manage recoil, or the Gorgon family and the Soma family to keep the fire rate spool up without unnecessarily wasting ammo.

It's not like Cryophon is a particularly difficult weapon to aim and lead, with its large hitbox and whatnot, so the argument that fire rate is pointless because you need to aim and lead properly is... weak. Better to argue that +% fire rate is pointless because +% fire rate for a 1.00 fire rate is not increasing a lot.

The dps of Zetki falls behind the moment you actually start to get interested in top end stats. The raw damage of Zetki will always be behind, after that it comes down to how much RoF you actually need and how important the slight few percentages of status really are. I mean, the stat weight of plasma vs chem is scewed in favor of chem on the weapon in question so the higher status wont make much difference since the plasma wont be reliable enough eitherway. So you only need a chem proc here and there much like with viral and radiation on other weapons and that works perfectly fine with 17% status.

No I dont fire constantly. I also havent ran into a gun where I feel the need to stop shooting before the enemy I'm shooting at is dead. Nor do I use a weapon that runs out of ammo every 2 seconds and requires a 3-4 second reload before the mob is dead. Which is kinda the case with Zatki sustained fire turrets.

My point is fire rate is pointless because you wont hold the trigger with Cryo. It simply wont increase the damage because you will tap shoot. On a weapon with 1.0 rate of fire and a bonus of 60% it would make a difference if the weapon actually supported automatic fire. Say if cryo was instead a hitscan beam that fires one beam every second. Then you'd just hold the reticle on the target and effectively increase the dps by 60% through fire rate.

[Renegade343]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

The dps of Zetki falls behind the moment you actually start to get interested in top end stats. The raw damage of Zetki will always be behind, after that it comes down to how much RoF you actually need and how important the slight few percentages of status really are. I mean, the stat weight of plasma vs chem is scewed in favor of chem on the weapon in question so the higher status wont make much difference since the plasma wont be reliable enough eitherway. So you only need a chem proc here and there much like with viral and radiation on other weapons and that works perfectly fine with 17% status.

As I said, I'm not risking a 17% status chance with the turrets, and if status works the same way as Damage 2.0 in terms of proc distribution, Chem falls out of favor because Plasma's Railjack IPS.

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No I dont fire constantly. I also havent ran into a gun where I feel the need to stop shooting before the enemy I'm shooting at is dead. Nor do I use a weapon that runs out of ammo every 2 seconds and requires a 3-4 second reload before the mob is dead. Which is kinda the case with Zatki sustained fire turrets.

Have fun with the Twin Stubbas at high level and no recoil reduction then. More likely than not, you'll be stopping periodically before the pistols kick up so hard that your FoV actually shifts significantly.

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

My point is fire rate is pointless because you wont hold the trigger with Cryo. It simply wont increase the damage because you will tap shoot. On a weapon with 1.0 rate of fire and a bonus of 60% it would make a difference if the weapon actually supported automatic fire. Say if cryo was instead a hitscan beam that fires one beam every second. Then you'd just hold the reticle on the target and effectively increase the dps by 60% through fire rate.

My point is that fire rate buff is relatively useless on Cryophon as it's not increasing it by a lot, because in practice, there's not much of a difference for the Zekti Cryophon with 1.00 fire rate and 1.5 something fire rate when actually using it than on paper. Your point was that fire rate is useless because Cryo's a weapon that needs aiming and leading properly, which isn't really true when the projectile hitbox is about the width of a Cutter. I have more problems judging distance for the turret than aiming and leading, because 400 - 800 meters can be deceptively short at times.

[Skaleek]

10 minutes ago, Renegade343 said:

Have fun with the Twin Stubbas at high level and no recoil reduction then. More likely than not, you'll be stopping periodically before the pistols kick up so hard that your FoV actually shifts significantly.

Not to derail or anything but i am able to control my kuva twin stubbas for a full 114 clip. Then again I'm amazing so your point still stands for everyone else! 🤗

[Renegade343]

1 minute ago, Skaleek said:

Not to derail or anything but i am able to control my kuva twin stubbas for a full 114 clip. Then again I'm amazing so your point still stands for everyone else! 🤗

I mean, I figured out how to myself (moving the mouse down for a bit until it eventually stabilizes around 1/4th to 3/8ths of the clip), but once you stop firing partway through the clip... the recoil kicks in again.

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, Renegade343 said:

As I said, I'm not risking a 17% status chance with the turrets, and if status works the same way as Damage 2.0 in terms of proc distribution, Chem falls out of favor because Plasma's Railjack IPS.

Have fun with the Twin Stubbas at high level and no recoil reduction then. More likely than not, you'll be stopping periodically before the pistols kick up so hard that your FoV actually shifts significantly.

My point is that fire rate buff is relatively useless on Cryophon as it's not increasing it by a lot, because in practice, there's not much of a difference for the Zekti Cryophon with 1.00 fire rate and 1.5 something fire rate when actually using it than on paper. Your point was that fire rate is useless because Cryo's a weapon that needs aiming and leading properly, which isn't really true when the projectile hitbox is about the width of a Cutter. I have more problems judging distance for the turret than aiming and leading, because 400 - 800 meters can be deceptively short at times.

What risk? You need it to trigger once, that should be enough. It also isnt a must have proc because as I said it is very situational depending on what target is closest. It is most useful at distant targets, which the Zetki just cannot afford shooting at. There is also no IPS for RJs, it is just that Archgun stats gets converted because the regular damage types arent present. All the RJ damage types are treated the same because not of them is specifically physical.

I dont intend on using Twin Stubbas. Really trying to find what connection you are trying to make here aswell since it is a different system with different balance. You starting with saying that WF teaches us to burst or stop shooting and I said no, I've never felt that need (and I've used Pyrana/Prime alot).

Then you agree that Cryo is used as an aiming/leading weapon since you even yourself bring up distance, which is part of the whole aiming thing. Dont force people to spell out every single little possible thing to make it clear as a neon-sign. Range, movement and everything else is accounted for when someone says it is a weapons that requires you to aim and lead. Leading isnt always refering to sideways movement, in RJs case it also refers to shooting at the right range at the right moment so they fly into the projectile at the right point for the least fall off.

[DaMasque]

52 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Can you make more of these? 4 more to be exact? Cause it is awesome. Your ms paint skills do not matter to me, this is incredibly helpful for creating a logical comparison on which house makes the best of each turret type.

if RNG favors me, that's the plan.

[Skaleek]

Because of the strength of the particle status, part of me wants to use apocs with high status.... but... There's no way to increase said status sadly. That and apocs are kinda bad.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Skaleek

[Renegade343]

14 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

What risk? You need it to trigger once, that should be enough. It also isnt a must have proc because as I said it is very situational depending on what target is closest. It is most useful at distant targets, which the Zetki just cannot afford shooting at.

Funny thing: Zekti would be better for distant targets, because Vidar actually starts being bad at longer ranges because spread.

And yeah, having 17% status chance vs. 26% status chance is significant enough to consider the risk of 17% status chance.

14 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

There is also no IPS for RJs, it is just that Archgun stats gets converted because the regular damage types arent present. All the RJ damage types are treated the same because not of them is specifically physical.

I'm not saying that Railjack has IPS (as in the ones in Damage 2.0), I'm saying that it's possible that Ballistic/Plasma/Particle and elemental status proc distribution is possibly the same as how proc distribution works in Damage 2.0 with IPS and elemental, where IPS gets 4x weighting. Ballistic/Plasma/Particle are pretty much Railjack's IPS, so it's not out of the question that proc distribution works equivalently.

14 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Then you agree that Cryo is used as an aiming/leading weapon since you even yourself bring up distance, which is part of the whole aiming thing. Dont force people to spell out every single little possible thing to make it clear as a neon-sign. Range, movement and everything else is accounted for when someone says it is a weapons that requires you to aim and lead. Leading isnt always refering to sideways movement, in RJs case it also refers to shooting at the right range at the right moment so they fly into the projectile at the right point for the least fall off.

I see aiming and leading separately than getting into range, because getting into range doesn't need precise enemy tracking, just that you're generally in range of the enemy, while leading requires precise enough enemy tracking to get shots to hit. It is possible to not get into range and lead the enemy, or getting into range and not lead, hence I decide to see the two separately.

And I never said leading having to refer to sideways movement, especially with Railjack.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Renegade343

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Renegade343 said:

Funny thing: Zekti would be better for distant targets, because Vidar actually starts being bad at longer ranges because spread.

And yeah, having 17% status chance vs. 26% status chance is significant enough to consider the risk of 17% status chance.

I'm not saying that Railjack has IPS (as in the ones in Damage 2.0), I'm saying that it's possible that Ballistic/Plasma/Particle and elemental status proc distribution is possibly the same as how proc distribution works in Damage 2.0 with IPS and elemental, where IPS gets 4x weighting. Ballistic/Plasma/Particle are pretty much Railjack's IPS, so it's not out of the question that proc distribution works equivalently.

I see aiming and leading separately than getting into range, because getting into range doesn't need precise enemy tracking, just that you're generally in range of the enemy, while leading requires precise enough enemy tracking to get shots to hit. It is possible to not get into range and lead the enemy, or getting into range and not lead, hence I decide to see the two separately.

And I never said leading having to refer to sideways movement, especially with Railjack.

One could also say Zetki is even more impacted by spread due to far less possible shots and a much higher speed, meaning several extra shots miss. Since both have the same projectile speed the spread likely becomes an even punishment for both.

I'd agree if we were talking about a status that should be applied as often as possible. But we are talking 1 in 6 shots instead of 1 in 4 here on weapons with a high enough RoF to proc it regularly on each target. And it is still only a bonus that doesnt really impact TTK. If this was about the heat proc or particle, or a weapon with high plasma it would be far more important with the extra 9% status. But in that case you be better off with Lavan since it would let you fire more at a faster rate and rack up far more instances of DoT procs on the target.

I'm an old fps player, so leading and aiming for me is the one and the same thing. Likely because I'm very used to bullet physics and drop off, so leading is just part of my thinking regarding aiming. Because if you dont lead the bullet on a target in any direction you'll end up hitting the wrong bodypart or miss completely i.e aim high, aim low, aim wide, aim small.