Archwing is not fun now

[DeMonkey]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

To be fair, I doubt most warframes even care about such forces. I mean Rhino has enough mass to slow time when he stomps. So physics as we understand them don't really apply here.

Hmm, but given the somatic link would this not affect the Operators as well to some degree? Shrug, interesting to think about anyway.

[SoulEchelon]

Archwing is extremely responsive now - I'm not sure what you're talking about there. I personally did prefer the old system for its realism (and able to do some really cool tricks in the air), but I'm not jaded enough to say the current version is bad, because it has quite a few good points too. Strafing around targets and quick maneuverability is nice. Wish there was a toggle to go from the new system to the old, though.

15 minutes ago, Ady88 said:

I'm actually having more fun with archwing now than before. But then I'm not using a console controller so don't know what that experience is like.

Yeah perhaps that could be why. Maybe it's not as "responsive" on the PS4/controller?

At the end of the day though, blame everyone who hated the realism of the old system. They changed it to this new, "Arcade-y" one specifically because of the fact that people constantly cried about how Archwing was "not fun" due to inertia and how general movement worked. This is the result.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

2 minutes ago, Mavor said:

I love it, feels way more fluid than before - thats not to say I hated it before - but the precision of control we have now is fantastic.

Not really, boosting in Armored Core felt responsive, but Archwing feels very limited as you cannot actively dodge, shoot down incoming missiles, dash into melee, overboost across the battlefield, and repeat the process. Right now we can blink forward, dodge (if you can even call it that) left/right, move slowly up or down, and that's about it. I actually have less control using archwing than I do with my Warframe. I guess if you never experienced better it can feel good, but Armored Core beat Archwing 10 years ago.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

3 minutes ago, SoulEchelon said:

Yeah perhaps that could be why. Maybe it's not as "responsive" on the PS4/controller?

It's fine for me, I also enjoy it much more than before. I guess everyone has different feels about it though.

[Mavor]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Not really, boosting in Armored Core felt responsive, but Archwing feels very limited as you cannot actively dodge, shoot down incoming missiles, dash into melee, overboost across the battlefield, and repeat the process. Right now we can blink forward, dodge (if you can even call it that) left/right, move slowly up or down, and that's about it. I actually have less control using archwing than I do with my Warframe. I guess if you never experienced better it can feel good, but Armored Core beat Archwing 10 years ago.

Yes really, in my opinion. Perhaps on consoles it feels less responsive - but with M/K, I can effectively turn and blink away, basically as fast as I want to.

Also, what does this have to do with Armored Core? Archwing is a glorified jet pack - not a hyper-mobile anime-style mecha.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Mavor

[Xefonis]

il y a 1 minute, Mavor a dit :

Also, what does this have to do with Armored Core? Archwing is a glorified jet pack - not a hyper-mobile anime-style mecha.

Advanced maneuvers truly gave the feeling of being aboard a super fast and mobile mecha.

Honestly, I feel like the conversation is going nowhere. On one side, we seem to have people who were horrified by the old archwing and were quick to dismiss it, not wanting to have anything to do with it because of the basic controls being too hard to use due to momentum. This is understandable, and Archwing 3.0 is now seen by this huge group as a welcomed renewal because those basic controls finally work in a precise way (except for blink - but I said "basic" controls).

On the other hand from what I see, there are people who took the time to look into past archwing systems despite their obvious flaws. What they discovered was actually a deep system with 2.0 that allowed many impressive and fun moves - maybe not as many as with Warframes, but still. The basic movements could remain frustrating even for such players, but there was obvious potential that could be unseen by the other group, too frustrated by an unplayable experience.

What is saddening here is that players who intially dismissed archwings seem to limit the experience they have to offer to the one thing that drove them crazy in the first place: momentum. And again, it's perfectly understandable, and I can understand why Archwing 3.0 can be seen as a savior. But the complete removal of, let's say, 75% of what made the archwing gameplay deep and rewarding, can't be unseen by the ones who took time to appreciate it.

 

I don't feel like we should have to choose between an old and a new system though. If we just keep the momentum and the blink, all the old issues seem to be resolved. There is then no reason to remove the afterburners, the XYZ axis and the maneuvers, right ? (I guess for the axis some kind of camera lock could be easily added for the ones who don't like it). But it boggles my mind that DE removed almost everything that made archwings, well, archwings.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

33 minutes ago, Mavor said:

Yes really, in my opinion. Perhaps on consoles it feels less responsive - but with M/K, I can effectively turn and blink away, basically as fast as I want to.

Also, what does this have to do with Armored Core? Archwing is a glorified jet pack - not a hyper-mobile anime-style mecha.

Because Armored Core uses a hyper responsive mech that navigates in a 3D environment using a combination of agility, defense and offense. It's what Archwing should aspire to be instead of a glorified jet pack.

I mean Warframes are about as over-styled as anime ever was, so are you really trying to disqualify Armored Core because it's too anime? I just want the best Archwing combat possible, and making it more similar to Armored Core would help to deliver that type of combat.

[cmacq]

2 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Ironically, the real world.

Ask yourself, how fast do you accelerate to fullspeed in Archwing? Instantly?

Surely then it's entirely reasonable we can decelerate instantly as well. What's unreal is how we would react to the forces that would put us under.

Please provide a "real world" example of stopping instantly while airborne

[cmacq]

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

The old momentum was even worse, don't try to pretend it was better

I liked it better and I don't "pretend". Not saying it was perfect for sure though. Personally I would preferred something between that and what we have now as in some forward inertia but not as much as the previous way of doing it. This just feels so janky to me now even if it is far easier to get where you're going.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Have you tried to use arch melee yet?

RIP Archmelee, power creeped to death

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

17 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

RIP Archmelee, power creeped to death

I tried using it in normal archwing missions and it doesn't even lunge at your target so it's completely worthless right now. How can DE give us a full melee rework and then destroy arch melee a couple months later? It boggles the mind to see updates like this that completely miss the mark after they spent so much time just fixing it.

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, cmacq said:

Please provide a "real world" example of stopping instantly while airborne

Please provide a real world example of accelerating to full speed instantly. You can't. 

The physics of stopping immediately (the stated problem) is entirely sound given we're able to accelerate to full speed immediately. That of course is questionable, but in a world where it's possible it's also possible to stop immediately. 

[cmacq]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

Please provide a real world example of accelerating to full speed instantly. You can't. 

The physics of stopping immediately (the stated problem) is entirely sound given we're able to accelerate to full speed immediately. That of course is questionable, but in a world where it's possible it's also possible to stop immediately. 

Ah a little bit of trickery there, I never for one second said accelerating to full speed instantly was viable so don't know how you associated that with me. Obviously I don't agree with that either as it's part of what makes all of this feel so "janky" to me. The point here is that the old way to fly was not a problem where AW was most used pre-railjack, that being open world play. I am not participating in RJ till they iron the bugs out so not all qualified on the AW needs there.

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, cmacq said:

Ah a little bit of trickery there, I never for one second said accelerating to full speed instantly was viable so don't know how you associated that with me.

I never said you did. Just pointing out the double standards.

If you're going to complain about the instantaneous stop and state "in what world", then you should also complain about the instantaneous acceleration, because the instantaneous deceleration does match up with this world's physics based on everything else the Archwing is capable of.

The physics of the old system weren't correct, the physics of the new system aren't correct. Pretending the old system was more scientifically 'accurate' or anything of the sort is laughable, they're both nonsensical.

[cmacq]

3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Pretending the old system was more scientifically 'accurate' or anything of the sort is laughable, they're both nonsensical.

It's a game man everything about it is nonsensical and once again don't put words in my mouth. I never said anything about scientifically accurate and as I said in an earlier post, I don't "pretend", way too old for that

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, cmacq said:

It's a game man everything about it is nonsensical and once again don't put words in my mouth. I never said anything about scientifically accurate and as I said in an earlier post, I don't "pretend", way too old for that

Exactly, it is a game, it doesn't have to make sense. We have jetpacks that accelerate to 100mph and decelerate to 0 instantly. 

"It what world when you're in the air do you stop on a dime when the forward moment control is released?"

Makes that previous statement kinda contradictory, doesn't it? Because you're acting like the science behind it is one of the reasons it's bad... can't have it both ways.

[cmacq]

25 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Makes that previous statement kinda contradictory, doesn't it? Because you're acting like the science behind it is one of the reasons it's bad... can't have it both ways.

Ah you know they say about assuming right? You implying something based on how you think I'm "acting". I know for sure one of the things I can't have is the "last word" when it comes to you. There's an obvious reason why you have nearly 14000 posts. So you can have it I'm done. I just hope this change makes more sense when I start Railjack because I don't like it now, that is if I'm allowed to have my own opinion?

 

And FYI I'm not really serious here. I enjoy your posts and your activity on the forums. I like the positive humourous approach you bring to your "work"

Edited December 19, 2019 by cmacq

[Cyanide2018]

8 hours ago, Forblaze said:

The old movement was hard to control, but going fast felt good. The current movement is easy to control, yes, but it's also slow and boring. 

The current movement may be boring, but it's definitely not slow. I am zipping around Orb Vallis and PoE faster than I ever could (and I actually timed it -- getting from point A to point B takes much less time now).

[DroopingPuppy]

12 hours ago, Askorti said:

Was archwing ever fun?

This. Archwing was not ever fun at all, in the first place.

[Gamma745]

12 hours ago, Oreades said:

If you like the new Titania controls then you can't have an issue with the old running into every wall controls because theyr'e the exact same control scheme. They switched her over to the old scheme with forced forward momentum and then proceeded to ditch that control scheme literally everywhere else. 

What? I just used Titania recently and I remembered it used the new system, no forced momentum so I pretty much stopped the moment I let go of the directional buttons. I need to check later if I turned off experimental flight mode, but last I remembered I turned it off before the latest Archwing changes.

[Skaleek]

12 hours ago, Oreades said:

Yeah the real kicker was if memory serves for that change they specifically noted bringing Razorwing in line with standard Archwing controls

Hey i just tested titania. I have the regular AW amount of inertia... I am zipping through levels without issue.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Skaleek

[Oreades]

18 minutes ago, Gamma745 said:

What? I just used Titania recently and I remembered it used the new system, no forced momentum so I pretty much stopped the moment I let go of the directional buttons. I need to check later if I turned off experimental flight mode, but last I remembered I turned it off before the latest Archwing changes.

The issue is tied to sprint toggle. I've been bringing it up occasionally in bugs and feedback threads for probably over half a year now. 

Pretty much the old system that they added with Skywing and consequently the one the updated Titania to before ditching all together breaks Sprint Toggle. Causing Titania once triggered to continually move forward with no player input. It also disables the S key as an actual air brake. So both W and S become funcionally dead inputs 

Where previously Razorwing just worked, Archwing Propper just worked, Skywing was a hot mess but they essentially abandoned it for a better system (finally) and no one really Skarkwings enough to care. Unfortunately they "updated" Razorwing to the old Skywing controls and forgot it existed when they changed every other AW mode to just work.

5 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Hey i just tested titania. I have the regular AW amount of inertia...

Have you tried it with Sprint toggle? 

[realmzjetter]

Titania is the only instance that I like the new archwing movements. Her being able to stop on a dime makes more sense, she's small and acts much more like a hummingbird or bug.

But the old system with a feeling of inertia and movement worked for me, I enjoyed it, even if archwing missions were the worst game type in the game. The old way also let Titania boost up and down stupidly fast, which is now sadly gone, and the double tap sprint is awkward to keep speed going forward with the blink. the fact that Railjack uses the same controls just makes me actively dislike a thing that I didn't care about when it was first shown off, and is largely the reason why I've not touched and won't touch the game mode after a handful of missions in it. At least not until DE forces everyone to use it like they've done with Archwing. The New War is going to be terrible for me.

[Skaleek]

15 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Have you tried it with Sprint toggle? 

No i dont use sprint toggle i hold shift to sprint.

[Oreades]

1 minute ago, Skaleek said:

No i dont use sprint toggle i hold shift to sprint.

Try turning it on and using Titania. I always use sprint Toggle, since there is no time I don't want to be sprinting and that's one less input I need to fuss with. 

It took me like three months of loathing the absolute garbage fire that was Skywing when PoE hit to finally figure it out what was causing all of the issues with it and then months of bringing it up intermittently before I just said hecc it. Titania and standard AW still just worked and then they broke everything.... and then they rolled everything over to something that just worked..... except Titania.