Mag's Pull And Crush: She's Not Mag Anymore...

[Yg-Dosst]

Mag is pretty much my favorite Warfame.

She has had a largely tactical and subjective role on the battlefield, with most of her abilities being useful in ways that you can't measure with a damage indicator.

Mag has always been buggy, full of glitches, and a poster-child for testing new physics features in the game.

While I am Glad that Shield Polarize and Bullet Attractor have been fixed and made useful.
Pull and Crush are now Broken and dysfunctional.

 

Why is Pull Broken?

It doesn't pull. It's a Massive Cone Armor-ignore damage nuke that you can snipe an entire map with behind a box, causing a large amount of enemies to die and fly spasmodically across the map.

It's effects does more than a good bit of other Frame's Ults for only a quarter of the cost.

 

Because it Ragdolls rather than Knockdown-and-drags, the enemies fly chaotically all over the place.

This is Aesthetically and mechanically annoying for both me and other players.

Not to mention that at early levels of survival and Defense, she one-shots just about an entire wave in two clicks.

This isn't fun.

Not for me, not for the other party members on the team.

Especially when I wanted to play a CC boat...

It's too simple to scroll up (what I have it set to) and then to see an entire wave die in a bland and glitchy manner.

 

How to fix Pull:

First off, Make it knockdown to pull, not ragdoll.

While it's nice to see DE try to put the new physics effect on the Magnetic Manipulator... It doesn't work.

Those that die from the pull fly across the field, disrupting and annoying the players.

Those that do not die, fall to the ground limply and get stuck on it, not being pulled by the attack.
If you knock them down, the terrain functions much better at funneling them towards you, like it always has worked.

 

Secondly, tighten up the cone of effect.

For a the FIrst BASIC ability, being able to hit everything in and beyond your sight (120 degrees) is a little ridiculous, especially so when comparatively every other Warframe's abilities does not have a Area of Effect this large.

Tightening the cone to about 60 degrees would allow you pull on just the Center ~25% of your screen.

This is a good thing.
Being able to precisely aim at a section and pull only the cluster of enemies you want more proficiently would allow you help avoid pulling those Toxic Ancients that have always been the bane of Mag.

 

Additionally, Restore some of its old features, teammate-pull for one.

These were both fun and useful features of pull.

Being able to pull a downed teammate out of a poison cloud was great. Because they can now move while downed does not make this ability useless by any means.

How do we make the new AOE pull work on team-mates?

Simple. If the cursor is over a team-mate, it pulls only that team-mate. The ability is focused just on them.

If it is not on a team-mate, then it resorts to the mass enemy pull as usual, leaving team-mates out of it.

 

Lastly, remove the damage.

I know this is going to give me some flak, but she doesn't need it.

It's was and has always been a support utility tool that was designed for cheap Mass CC; as that is her function: a CC support Warframe.

The fact that it kills outright, rather than being able to drag them and then finish them off, is not satisfying in any manner, and I actually feel the need to apologize to my teammates for ruining the enjoyment of actually killing things themselves.

Mag is NOT AoE Damage Nuker #17

She is a Tactical Crowd Control Support character, leave her ult to deal the damage.

 

Speaking of her ult:

 

Why is Crush Broken?

It's underpowered. It's useless compared to the massive damage capability and CC that Pull is.

Pull does 300 damage to level 80 Ancients. Crush does 187.

Pull costs 25 energy, Crush costs 100.

The ragdoll on pull lasts ~1.5 seconds for me, And while Crush lasts 3 seconds total, it has 4 times the cost.

 

See the issue?
Pull is 8x more efficient for the damage and 2x more efficient CC.

Arguably the AOE size is pretty much the same.

 

Pull was originally the Cheap CC tool while Crush was her primary source of damage.

Crush is now useless because of Pull's massive (relative) damage and efficiency.

 

How to Fix Crush:

Make it Armor Piercing. Not Armor Ignore, Armor Piercing.

You're picking up a large quantity of shrapnel and forcing it into them as well as breaking their spine.
There's no reason It shouldn't do MORE damage to Heavily armored targets, rather than Lighter-armored ones.

Not to mention Mag has 

 

This way the massive 1000 damage AOE Nuke becomes a useful tool for clearing at high levels, rather than being completely outclassed by Pull.

 

That's it. Just change the Damage type. It's that simple.
If you fix Pull by reverting it back to it's old role and function, that'd be the majority of what it takes to fix her.

 

- - -

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this and hopefully Mag gets fixed to where she can FINALLY stay as her old tactically-played Crowd Controlling self, and leave the Massive AOE and Nuking to the Seven other Warframes who have that role.

 

     ~ Yg-Dosst

 

EDIT: Removed request for Cover-blocking, replaced with Tightened Cone Angle request. People made some very good points.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Yg-Dosst

[Atomic_Beam]

My god prepare yourself for hate, because I have ALL the same opinion as you and EVERYONE trows hate at me When I pull the very same argument as you. 

 

I support you in all of this, mag is not mag anymore, DE you broke the mag purpose. I would prefer to get pulling effect rather than dmg aoe. Mag DOES pull, only when ennemie gets kill by the ability and it is useless and also it trows every ennemie flying in the air with no intelligence. A mag, is suposed to MAGnefy the thing it is pulling. Which is not the case here.

[Althix]

yeah. lets make her useless again.

 

mm, however i don't care about pull or crush, until shield polarize works as it works i am ok with you ranting.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Althix

[QuiteCrazy]

I agree with you guys and everything stated here, except maybe revoming damage from Pull, need just to change the damage type as of Cruch's now.

[VoidPunch]

I have to agree with this. Pull should pull teammates, that was extremely useful before. I don't get why pull is so strong, esp it being a utility type move, there's no point in pull a dead body since you kill it before they get pulled. And crush should be stronger for sure. 

[fatpig84]

Well people felt she suck at damage and DE gave it to her in spades. So I got no comments on this one. FYI I don't even like Mag.

 

 

But I really dislike the ragdoll effect  While this is not a problem at lower levels where she one hits mobs, at high levels this can screw over people royally since Ragdoll enemies are immune to normal attacks.

Edited October 2, 2013 by fatpig84

[Kesella]

It seems a good portion of Mag players(myself included) would like the old functionality of PullV2 (at my feet).  We picked up and stuck with Mag as she is the only active control frame in the roster right now as opposed to the passive control frames of Frost and Vauban.  She is no longer the control frame we fell in love with, now she is just a simplified Nova.  I am really hoping that they address this during the livestream.  And to those who thought that Mag was useless with Pullv2, quite simply you did not know how to play Mag.

[xLordBelialx]

I agree completely. Just started using Mag again and was running some low levels with no mods except pull and one simply walking from room to room casting and moving on. No need to aim or fire a shot.

 

This is not what Mag  is supposed to be. Pull should have the inherent dmg removed. It can still do some damage but it should be from the impact of hitting an object. 'Pulling' shouldn't just hurt the enemies. I also noticed that as well that enemies are not even pulled unless they're killed 90% of the time. If a heavy survives they just fall over in place and become invulnerable..I have'nt tried it but I'm sure that could be a serious problem at higher levels.

Pull also needs way less range..I did have the coil helmet on but still usually didn't even have to be facing them..pull should'nt be hitting stuff standing  behind me or off to my side.

TBH I felt like I was playing a Nova (who I hate playing as) and felt really turned off. Bring the CC back.

 

One final thing is why is there such a large 'upward' arc to the pull now...Don't criticize me bringing logic in too much but magnets should pull straight lines. (might fix some of the absurd ragdolling as well)

 

 

Good fix for crush I agree completely.

Edited October 2, 2013 by xLordBelialx

[Yg-Dosst]

yeah. lets make her useless again.

 

mm, however i don't care about pull or crush, until shield polarize works as it works i am ok with you ranting.

She's never been useless

Just difficult.

Plus wiith all of the other additions of core game mechanics and mods, (Namely Knockdown Executions and Heavy Impact) the Damage on her pull is unneeded, unfitting, redundant, and unnecessary.

[Dolomaticus]

Sorry you need to leave this alone, I can bet you guys never really tried to use pull in higher levels have you? I know I have and to be truthful its some of the best battlefield control around for this one reason(( And NO it does not kill anybody in one or many shots of using pull on Outer Terminus)): It breaks up the wall of lead and death the Corpus and Grineer have when they are charging you. Cause I know that when I am running Pluto I NEVER hear once "Stop using pull, its too chaotic, I cant shoot them!!" NOT ONCE I have heard that cause usually when you see 20 Corpus with 2 railgun Moas  closing in and that wall of laser death is coming, pull knocks them down and when the start getting back up, they are dead cause I dont give them the chance. 

 

   If you cant take advantage of the 8 seconds that it takes them to get up to kill  them, you really need to check over your loadouts. The only things that survive a Pull/Crush KO is Heavy enemies.

 

   But I will agree with you that the armor pierce is a good idea and tie it to the powering up of the Crush Mod since for some unknown reason a disturbingly large group of players DO NOT level up their Warframe mods. Its one of the reasons I wonder how people play this game when they dont even fully take advantage of the mod system and level up their cards.

[Althix]

She's never been useless

yeah well, you either blind or unexperienced.

[MSD3000]

I kindov agree, although I have been having a ball yoinking the entire Xini map all over the place. (maxed stretch mod is great) I just sit up in the rafters with an Ogris, and use Pull when things get hectic down below. It looks like someone shook up a snow globe full of infested :P

 

But a Frame shouldn't be limited to one useful move, especially when it annoys others. I'd be fine with a no-damage pull, that still had the current range, line of site issues. It's a great way to save everyone's bacon by yoinking an entire squad of baddies away from them. True, ragdolled enemies are harder to hit, but the extra time for them to get up is usually all my teammates need to take advantage of the situation. On a side note, ragdolled enemies take TONS of damage from Ignis, so there would be synergy there. Also, taking away the damage would solve the problem of people spamming it, barring trollframes, so the annoyance of others would be limited too.

 

And yes, take the safeties off Crush.

[Yg-Dosst]

Sorry you need to leave this alone, I can bet you guys never really tried to use pull in higher levels have you? I know I have and to be truthful its some of the best battlefield control around for this one reason(( And NO it does not kill anybody in one or many shots of using pull on Outer Terminus)): It breaks up the wall of lead and death the Corpus and Grineer have when they are charging you. Cause I know that when I am running Pluto I NEVER hear once "Stop using pull, its too chaotic, I cant shoot them!!" NOT ONCE I have heard that cause usually when you see 20 Corpus with 2 railgun Moas  closing in and that wall of laser death is coming, pull knocks them down and when the start getting back up, they are dead cause I dont give them the chance. 

 

   If you cant take advantage of the 8 seconds that it takes them to get up to kill  them, you really need to check over your loadouts. The only things that survive a Pull/Crush KO is Heavy enemies.

 

   But I will agree with you that the armor pierce is a good idea and tie it to the powering up of the Crush Mod since for some unknown reason a disturbingly large group of players DO NOT level up their Warframe mods. Its one of the reasons I wonder how people play this game when they dont even fully take advantage of the mod system and level up their cards.

You entirely missed the point.

Like you said, or incidentally implied, the damage is completely arbitrary and unneeded.

Pull is for the CC. And while the Ragdoll is an interesting addition. It's not nearly as effective as sliding them knockdowned to your feet, where people can clean it up easily with Melee and no bullets spent. It also allows for execution attacks on Heavies.

And being able to choose between dragging your allies out of a fight, and dragging the fight out of your allies has always been my favorite part about Mag, that's just not possible anymore.

 

Also the 187 damage WAS with a Max level Crush.

It's laughably underpowered.

 

While Pull just doesn't function as it did or should.

[Yg-Dosst]

yeah well, you either blind or unexperienced.

Thanks for the Ad Hominem, great argument you have there.

Mag was my second warframe, because I played back when she wasn't a starter, and she was the first Warframe I got to level 30.

 

I've been through almost every one of her changes, I've seen back when Sheild Polarize was laughable and not the great and perfected Sheild ripping tool like it is today.

Even back then she was still one of the greatest Frames and was almost necessary for High-ranking Infested missions and a good number of high-mobility bosses.

 

If I sound offended, that's because I am offended.

Now please orchestrate your point and reasoning more clearly and I may be able to address it.

[Dolomaticus]

Oh and to state something else: almost every warframe once they reach a certain level are auto kills on lower and mid level enemies. to say that it is an   auto kill on lower level enemies is not surprising....it should be!!! Once I reach a certain level, and have the right loadout for her I better expect that if I see a level 25 Grineer they should be dead, unless its a nightmare situation. 

 

   Mag is still mag, it didn't change that unless you know how to really use her well, once you hit the higher levels you will get pasted pretty much whether or not its the old pull or the one we have now. Plus I do appreciate NOT having a block party sitting at my feet when I pull them to me. I am willing to prove my point that I will run with anybody in Outer Terminus anytime I am on to show what the changes have done for my high level game. and why I want them to leave pull alone for the most part. If they want to tone down the damage a bit, ok fine, but leave the rest alone cause I have realized how to use pull to maximum effect and crush I still spam it for the"10 to 12 second grace period" a team needs to recover/save a fallen Tenno.

[Yg-Dosst]

Oh and to state something else: almost every warframe once they reach a certain level are auto kills on lower and mid level enemies. to say that it is an   auto kill on lower level enemies is not surprising....it should be!!! Once I reach a certain level, and have the right loadout for her I better expect that if I see a level 25 Grineer they should be dead, unless its a nightmare situation. 

 

   Mag is still mag, it didn't change that unless you know how to really use her well, once you hit the higher levels you will get pasted pretty much whether or not its the old pull or the one we have now. Plus I do appreciate NOT having a block party sitting at my feet when I pull them to me. I am willing to prove my point that I will run with anybody in Outer Terminus anytime I am on to show what the changes have done for my high level game. and why I want them to leave pull alone for the most part. If they want to tone down the damage a bit, ok fine, but leave the rest alone cause I have realized how to use pull to maximum effect and crush I still spam it for the"10 to 12 second grace period" a team needs to recover/save a fallen Tenno.

If you're around in 3.5-4 hours I'll gladly take you up on that offer, but right now I've got an appointment in a few minutes.

[Dolomaticus]

You entirely missed the point.

Like you said, or incidentally implied, the damage is completely arbitrary and unneeded.

Pull is for the CC. And while the Ragdoll is an interesting addition. It's not nearly as effective as sliding them knockdowned to your feet, where people can clean it up easily with Melee and no bullets spent. It also allows for execution attacks on Heavies.

And being able to choose between dragging your allies out of a fight, and dragging the fight out of your allies has always been my favorite part about Mag, that's just not possible anymore.

 

Also the 187 damage WAS with a Max level Crush.

It's laughably underpowered.

 

While Pull just doesn't function as it did or should.

  Well I had the bad side of when pull could be used on friends and WE the community killed that. Too many times I got trolled because I would be killing something and get jerked around by other Mags, there comes a point that no matter how useful that feature can be, it   is annoying, distracting and outright trolling when abused...and we as a group abused it to no end.

 

   No I didnt miss the point, I want that damage cause its armor ignore even on high levels, that damage helps cause till they give crush armor pierce its the only thing that I can say will do consistent damage no matter what level I run. Plus the old pull had its problems, cause for  every team that would take advantage of the enemies being KO, you have 4 more who just don't notice or care, and after too many times of having 20 enemies surrounding me, and some of them jumping up((Or Toxics just being there)) and punching me in the face. I rather have them broken up so I can deal with them and if the team helps? Even better! I will check about the Max level crush, 187 sounds off to me, but hey you can be right too. I will check it out again.

[cary2010haha]

look at Rhino, CC power should have massive damage and huge AOE

[Dolomaticus]

If you're around in 3.5-4 hours I'll gladly take you up on that offer, but right now I've got an appointment in a few minutes.

Sounds like a plan then :)

[Althix]

Thanks 

oh sure you are welcome.

 

only use she have before U8 is to have fun with crush. after U8 is to pull mobs into vortex. however, her advantages were... let say not so much of advantages. she was fun, but useless.

 

And a drop all this pull for melee crap ok? Only reason to use pull i have mentioned above.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Althix

[Kynian]

On Pull: While I agree the damage needs a nerf, and I like the idea of Focusing on a team-mate if crosshair is aiming at a teammate, that's all. I like everything that's done to it other than these previously mentioned suggestions of yours, and would hate to see them changed to uselessness as you want them to be. Pull should ragdoll indeed. From any standpoint, it makes no sense for you to be dragged when she's really pulling you with magnetic force. You'd be flying towards her. Think of magneto metts scorpion - something like Magneto saying "GET OVER HERE". Just how would you think he'd do it? Additionally, in the early trailer that featured Mag as one of the warframes, she pulls enemies over railings. That reason alone validates ragdolling, as it's impossible to do so otherwise (and it's awsome as well).

It IS glitchy, but I have faith it'll become less and less glitchy as time goes on, as I'm trusting these things will be/are being looked over constantly to improve the overall quality of the game.

As for Crush, I think it actually needs to be Armor Ignore, not Piercing. Reason for that is that, unless they changed what's written on the skill (and I haven't checked lately), it "magnetizes the bones and internal structures of the affected and make them collapse upon themselves". Ouch. No armor will protect you there. Additionally, aside from the damage I would also like to see survving enemies wih their movement permanently hindered. Such as broken arms, legs, etc.

[Kesella]

oh sure you are welcome.

 

only use she have before U8 is to have fun with crush. after U8 is to pull mobs into vortex. however, her advantages were... let say not so much of advantages. she was fun, but useless.

 

And a drop all this pull for melee crap ok? Only reason to use pull i have mentioned above.

 

Actually, the pull Melee combo was quite effective.  The 200+ armor ignore damage with Orthos with max charge speed/damage and a ice element to slow them getting up was able to deal with most situations.  Backed up by a teammates Torid/Ogris/Ignis as well as warframe abilities that shined with enemies being bunched up made Mag a powerhouse not through what she did personally, but what she allowed the group to do.  Just because you were not able to use Mag to her full abilities does not mean that others could not.

[killchamp]

It seems a good portion of Mag players(myself included) would like the old functionality of PullV2 (at my feet).  We picked up and stuck with Mag as she is the only active control frame in the roster right now as opposed to the passive control frames of Frost and Vauban.  She is no longer the control frame we fell in love with, now she is just a simplified Nova.  I am really hoping that they address this during the livestream.  And to those who thought that Mag was useless with Pullv2, quite simply you did not know how to play Mag. 

I started with Mag and couldn't agree more. 

[Lady_Khaos]

I definitely agree. If anything, they should just reduce the damage on Pull to a 4th of what it is, and get rid of the ragdolling. And yeah, Crush should do more damage thanks to armor. That is the single thing that always made Crush suck as an ult. Think about it, you are collapsing the enemies armor into themselves. Should that not mean the more armor plating they have, the more they get crushed?

 

And for people saying Mag would be useless again, she was never truly useless. You are simply too lazy to actually use the strategies to maximize her potential. Surprising, since all that really takes is a good shotgun or wide arc melee.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Khaos_Zand3r

[Archwizard]

I agree with all of this, except for one facet:

 

Secondly, take away the ability to use it through cover and Walls.

I don't like pulling things I didn't plan on pulling and cannot see.

I don't like the idea that Mag can crouch behind and box and spam the ability for cheap damage with no risk.

I don't like how clunky and awkward the ability is because of pulling now-dead Grineer ragdoll's from two rooms over which decide that they should flap their arms and take flight to head south for the winter.

 

I can see an argument about having it limited to the range of the tile itself, like with Bladestorm, but being able to pull enemies you can't see was one of the most useful facets of Pull v2 (that is, U8.3 to U9.8).

 

Keep in mind the (actually rather intelligent) AI of enemies such as Grineer Marines and Corpus Crewmen; they will do what they can to get behind cover and snipe you at range. By saying you can't pull them if they're behind a knee-high railing, you're not just screwing yourself up, but also screwing up the (actually shockingly dumb) AI of Sentinels, Mind Controlled enemies and Shadows of the Dead who will shoot repeatedly at walls that enemies happen to be hiding behind. The enemies you're most afraid of pulling- Toxic Ancients- don't have that AI, so you're setting yourself up to pull the enemies that are least effective at range/most effective at melee, rather than the reverse.

One of the most useful facets of Pull v2 in defenses was grouping enemies up at the base of some boxes you're hiding behind, or the wall of an elevator shaft you were standing in. It gave the Mag a buffer, and allowed you some additional CC utility.

 

Not to mention that given some of the changes you're mentioned- removing the damage, swapping away from the ragdolls, etc- make this change somewhat redundant.

 

How to Fix Crush:

Make it Armor Piercing. Not Armor Ignore, Armor Piercing.

You're picking up a large quantity of shrapnel and forcing it into them as well as breaking their spine.
There's no reason It shouldn't do MORE damage to Heavily armored targets, rather than Lighter-armored ones.

 

Well yes... except Armor Piercing has no relation to the actual armor of the target. Some of the most heavily-armored enemies are the Ancients, and they have a hefty reduction modifier from Armor Piercing. The name is rather misleading, but it's actually best to think of it as an element effective to Grineer as Electricity is to Corpus or Fire is to Infested.

Armor Piercing damage would only really be effective against Grineer units (since I assume crushing the target's entire body wouldn't do singular damage to the Corpus Crewman's head). 

 

Meanwhile, hammers like Fragor deal Physics Impact damage, which ignores armor simply because each hit physically inverts the armor.

This is why people ask for Armor Ignoring (aka Physics Impact) damage: because it's universal. Enemies with higher armor take higher damage from it, because they're more reliant on the armor to protect them much like Corpus units rely on their shields.

It's also why Pull is so incredibly potent at higher levels- it's exactly what Crush is advertised as, a "devastating attack that can turn the tide of any battle".

Edited October 6, 2013 by Archwizard