Mag's Pull And Crush: She's Not Mag Anymore...

[Kaibah]

I always thought it would make sense that skills be chargeable. For example, if you just pushed the 1 key, Pull would be like how it was originally, but if you held the button down until it charged fully, it'd be something like you propose Yg-Dosst. I think this would also improve other skills too, and there are plenty of examples.

 

I mean, look at Volt and his Speed skill. The way the camera changes effect when he uses it is cool, but since it's now ALWAYS a team buff, people get very annoyed if a Volt spams the skill. If the skill had a charge mechanic though, pushing the button would just affect the Volt for when he wants fast movement, but holding it down would give everyone the boost when they need it.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Kaibah

[ThePresident777]

Of course, pull is fun therefore NERF IT NERF IT ....................

 

No wonder DE decided to have an art festival today.  Apparently that's the only thing that is nerfer proof!

Edited October 2, 2013 by ThePresident777

[Lady_Khaos]

Of course, pull is fun therefore NERF IT NERF IT ....................

 

It was fun without it being a nuke

[SIDESTRE4M]

The problem is not the skill itself (maybe a bit), it's the players (ab)using it.

 

Let's nerf the players.

 

Honestly, I also have a Mag Prime and leveled her to 29 to raise the mastery rank. Pull was hilarious to use and to see all those poor grineer spastically fly. However, as a non-Mag Prime player it is frustrating to see all those enemies fly away the moment you just spooled up your gorgon/soma/supra or planned other ways to attend to annihilation of these because someone is trolling.

[Flackenstien]

This.
While I have never used Mag or planned to, any interest I had vanished when she was turned into an AOE spammer.

 

Regaining her crowd control/support capabilities to Pull would be very welcomed, 300 damage or not.
Turning Crush to AP would give her an edge against Grineer, but do less to Infested, a very fair tradeoff that makes alot of sense.

 

These changes would make me reconsider my ill feelings towards Mag, then there'd only be one frame that I am not interested in, Trinity. (I do like lobsters... but sorry, Trinity is just ugly. Though, alternate skins would fix that immediately, even a better looking lobster tail.)

[Yg-Dosst]

Of course, pull is fun therefore NERF IT NERF IT ....................

 

No wonder DE decided to have an art festival today.  Apparently that's the only thing that is nerfer proof!

It's not a nerf. It's changing the functionality of Crush and Pull back to what they were before and optimizing it for that role.

Yes, that involves removing the damage on pull. But it was never meant to do that before this random Shoehorned attempt to make Mag into a crappy half-Nova.

Pull WAS fun before the $&*&*#(%& update that completely changed it's appearance and function.

 

Let me get this straight, I love Mag with all of my heart, and the last thing I want is for her to become sub-par again.

She just needs to be Mag, and DE needs to stop trying to make her just another nuker.

That's all I'm asking.

 

 

 

*Gotta Snip it*

You don't know how much it means to me that we're actually discussing this:

 

If I remember right, Not being able to target things behind cover is actually in the game already... I think one of Banshee's abilities.

The "In Cover" is actually coded VERY well.

You can only see allies as silhouettes when a certain % of their body is covered by objects between you.

Unless I'm mistaken the game uses a similar code to determine "In Cover" and likewise would be able to pull Grineer as they peek around cover etc.

 

Even then I can see it at least knocking them down rather then dragging them.

Mostly an Aestetic and logical quirk for me, but I can see forgoing that.

But my main issue with it is being able to hit people while cowering behind a box. The damage making that even worse.

 

Toxic ancients have always been an issue for Mag, and always will be, but that would make the necessity of positioning (what I enjoy the most about Mag) to be more prevalent.

 

The Change back to Knockdown is also more aestetic but It's for improved stability on the battlefield, for you know, improved cooperation in a cooperative game. It's much easier to track and kill a target that gets knocked down and drug to your ally, rather than fly up in the air in a random manner and float listlessly to your ally.

It's easier to track and maintain aim on a target if all of the enemies around it fall to the ground, below hip level, in a uniform manner. Expecially if your enemy is behind or at the end of the AOE.

Ragdolling and pulling causes crap to float about and in some instances makes it impossible to see your target. Expecially if your enemy is behind or at the end of a cone.

 

Now you do have an argument there for Physics Impact damage vs Armor peircing.

I'm not sure which one is better.

But I know for certain that Physics Impact is the damage that pins people to walls when projectiles are involved.

And that Armor piercing deals 50% extra damage to Heavy Grineer, and 50% LESS damage to Light Infested (Not Ancients)

The main issue is that, will 650 damage kill a high level charger? And is the extra damage on Grineer worth the less effectiveness on Chargers?

I know for a fact that Armor peircing will do a full 1300 damage to Ancients and deal 1950 damage to Heavy Grineer.

Maybe that'd be something to put in the OP as a question...

[-Kittens-]

Mag is much better than she was and is now an awesome starting frame.

[Archwizard]

If I remember right, Not being able to target things behind cover is actually in the game already... I think one of Banshee's abilities.

 

It's also the very same coding that affects such abilities as Nyx's Absorb, Excalibur's Radial Javelin, and so on, which are widely regarded as incredibly weak because the target can make themselves half-covered behind a box and block all of the damage... and these are ultimates, which you think they'd have a little more respect for.

You wouldn't believe how frustrating it is to cast Absorb at the top of a ramp and miss all of the enemies at the bottom of it because you clipped on the floor a little.

 

The principle is that you turn on a flashlight, everything you illuminate <70% is affected, and everything even remotely in the shadow is safe from you. Given these maps though, there's a lot of shadow.

With the current and immediately previous iterations of Pull, the shadow is ignored in favor of slamming enemies into other magnetic structures- that being the walls and barricades that were "saving them" in the first place.

 

I'm okay with the idea of Pull not bringing enemies all the way over to Mag if the enemy physically is blocked by a structure, and you're right, knockdown is much more effective than ragdoll simply because you can keep shooting knocked-down enemies.

But honestly, I prefer being able to slam enemies into waist-high railings and pull some trickery from behind cover over being forced to run out into the open and getting shot down by the dozen would-be snipers cowering on the opposite end of the room.

[Inberun]

Crush should have its damage scaled with enemies armor. More armor = more damage.

[Yg-Dosst]

It's also the very same coding that affects such abilities as Nyx's Absorb, Excalibur's Radial Javelin, and so on, which are widely regarded as incredibly weak because the target can make themselves half-covered behind a box and block all of the damage... and these are ultimates, which you think they'd have a little more respect for.

You wouldn't believe how frustrating it is to cast Absorb at the top of a ramp and miss all of the enemies at the bottom of it because you clipped on the floor a little.

 

The principle is that you turn on a flashlight, everything you illuminate <70% is affected, and everything even remotely in the shadow is safe from you. Given these maps though, there's a lot of shadow.

With the current and immediately previous iterations of Pull, the shadow is ignored in favor of slamming enemies into other magnetic structures- that being the walls and barricades that were "saving them" in the first place.

 

I'm okay with the idea of Pull not bringing enemies all the way over to Mag if the enemy physically is blocked by a structure, and you're right, knockdown is much more effective than ragdoll simply because you can keep shooting knocked-down enemies.

But honestly, I prefer being able to slam enemies into waist-high railings and pull some trickery from behind cover over being forced to run out into the open and getting shot down by the dozen would-be snipers cowering on the opposite end of the room.

You know you're right.

Especially with the magnetizing the scenery bit.

The cone's a little big IMO, but I'll take out the bit about cover in the morning.

Knocking down people are still a benefit and just because they have their big toe on a chest-high wall shouldn't cancel it.

[MECT_HET]

Keep your hand off Mag's pull, it helpful for Ogris to do x3 damage. Do whatever you want with Crush, I've never used it due to 1+2 combo is much more powerful.

[Phoenix86]

Secondly, take away the ability to use it through cover and Walls.

I don't like pulling things I didn't plan on pulling and cannot see.

I don't like the idea that Mag can crouch behind and box and spam the ability for cheap damage with no risk.

I don't like how clunky and awkward the ability is because of pulling now-dead Grineer ragdoll's from two rooms over which decide that they should flap their arms and take flight to head south for the winter.

 

Lastly, remove the damage.

I know this is going to give me some flak, but she doesn't need it.

It's was and has always been a support utility tool that was designed for cheap Mass CC; as that is her function: a CC support Warframe.

The fact that it kills outright, rather than being able to drag them and then finish them off, is not satisfying in any manner, and I actually feel the need to apologize to my teammates for ruining the enjoyment of actually killing things themselves.

Mag is NOT AoE Damage Nuker #17

She is a Tactical Crowd Control Support character, leave her ult to deal the damage.

 

These are the only 2 things I DISAGREE, the rest i agree.

 

About the first thing i disagree because i think that LoE/LoS should not influence magnetic force... we are not talking about projectiles or beams... we are talking about "force" covers should not affect it.

 

About the second thing i "partially" disagree... the dmg should be toned down but not removed and this must be done ONLY IF Crush gets buffed.

[Dalu__Ka]

Pull v2, one of the most awesome powers in game.

Pull v3, one of the most stoopid powers in game.

[Nagisawa]

She's never been useless

Just difficult.

And as a beginner frame, you can't have that.  I'm serious.  Otherwise, you'll force every new player into an Excalibur (Which is my favourite suit) with only those with egos or skills picking either Loki or Mag.

 

Pull is great, but it shouldn't be the first skill.  It should be an Ult.  And Crush needs to be redesigned and/or removed.

[Cerebrum123]

  Well I had the bad side of when pull could be used on friends and WE the community killed that. Too many times I got trolled because I would be killing something and get jerked around by other Mags, there comes a point that no matter how useful that feature can be, it   is annoying, distracting and outright trolling when abused...and we as a group abused it to no end.

 

   No I didnt miss the point, I want that damage cause its armor ignore even on high levels, that damage helps cause till they give crush armor pierce its the only thing that I can say will do consistent damage no matter what level I run. Plus the old pull had its problems, cause for  every team that would take advantage of the enemies being KO, you have 4 more who just don't notice or care, and after too many times of having 20 enemies surrounding me, and some of them jumping up((Or Toxics just being there)) and punching me in the face. I rather have them broken up so I can deal with them and if the team helps? Even better! I will check about the Max level crush, 187 sounds off to me, but hey you can be right too. I will check it out again.

 

What if it was changed to only affect downed players(for getting a downed player out of a toxic cloud for example)? I know that can still be trolled, but much less than being able to do it at any time(like Loki Switch Teleport).

[Fulmir]

I'm going to preface this with a few things:

I'm a new player, so I'm not up to the really high end content.

 

I picked Mag at the start intent on sticking with the frame for the long-haul, building up weapons and polarities that complement the frame.

 

I am too new to have played with previous versions of Mag, but I have seen some videos of those previous versions so I'm not speaking from a place of complete ignorance.

 

So, having said that...

 

No. To most of it.

 

As someone playing through lower-level content Pull feels really really powerful, possibly too much so, but I'm also starting to get to the point where it doesn't just gib through enemies which makes me want to reserve judgement on it somewhat. It's certainly a very powerful nuke ability but I don't like most of your changes.

 

The rag-doll effect gives you more options to use the skill than a simple floor-drag would, you can adjust how and where enemies fly by jumping and/or changing the direction of your camera and that feels a lot better than a rather lack-luster slide effect.

 

Ditto to removing the ability to use it through cover. Tighten up the cone a little maybe so it's not ~120 degrees in front of you but the ability to yank people from behind cover is more or less what makes this ability. If you take that away why am I going to take Mag over, say, Volt or Frost?

 

Being able to pull allies would be nice, but could also get rather frustrating for everyone involved. This is only really useful on downed allies, on everyone else it's only good for trolling. While being able to make a last-second pull rescue would be pretty cool it's also very niche compared to the likelyhood of either accidentally or intentionally yanking an ally out of melee when that's exactly where they want to be.

 

And lastly, the damage... Just no. Yes, maxing out Pull makes it really really powerful at low levels and maybe it needs a damage reduction, but that's a pretty big maybe. It doesn't scale well and the CC it does provide isn't nearly powerful enough to justify completely removing its damage. This is a knockdown, not a knockdown with a slow, stasis effect, or anything similarly powerful...

 

As for Crush...

 

So, yeah, changing it to physics damage would be pretty cool but lots of other Warframe Ultimate abilities are reduced by armor, and considering Crush pulls people up into the air (where they can be freely shot by teammates) and then throws them around anyway it's definitely a more powerful CC effect than Pull. You're comparing it to a single very high armor enemy at high level and then declaring it bad, that's silly. It's like declaring that Frost's abilities need a damage buff because they're lackluster against Infested even though they tear through shields on Corpus and Grineer.

 

So, yeah, from a newer player, no to most of this. I don't want Toxic Ancients landing at my feet, I don't want to accidentally yank that Exalibur out of melee (or be yanked around by a troll-Mag), and overall I think the ability is more fun now than it was before it just needs some tuning.

[Kesella]

Actually, with Pull V2 Cal was one of the best frames to pair up with Mag.  Mag would pull everything to one spot and the Cal could Slash Dash to maximum effect.  There is also the boss killing Wombo Combo with Bullet Attractor and Radial Javelin.  Each projectile of Radial Javelin can be affected by Bullet Attractor so put BA on a boss, have the Cal jump in the middle of the bubble and pop Radial Javelin and watch as each javelin gets redirected to the boss for massive damage.

[PHOBIE]

I agree with the original poster on the armor piercing on crush, or damage scaling with enemy armor. I also agree that being able to pull teammates was great utility and I would like to have that back.

 

All other points mentioned i disagree on and find utter trash. If pull had no damage nobody would play MAG anymore, regardless how much CC she brings to the team. It used to be this way, we know how it worked: nobody liked playing her.

 

Your feelings about how she performs in survivals are purely subjective, and no amount of alleged teammates who share your opinion will back you up on that point. Pull only working in open places was just as bad, as it defies the idea of her skillset mechanics (magnetic) and Pull's overall viability.

 

I don't see MAG walking out of cover on a corpus mission, taunt the guys, and go Pull while madly flailing her melee at them when they land at her feet. Not the kind of frame.

[Yg-Dosst]

I'm going to preface this with a few things:

I'm a new player, so I'm not up to the really high end content.

 

I picked Mag at the start intent on sticking with the frame for the long-haul, building up weapons and polarities that complement the frame.

 

I am too new to have played with previous versions of Mag, but I have seen some videos of those previous versions so I'm not speaking from a place of complete ignorance.

 

So, having said that...

 

No. To most of it.

 

As someone playing through lower-level content Pull feels really really powerful, possibly too much so, but I'm also starting to get to the point where it doesn't just gib through enemies which makes me want to reserve judgement on it somewhat. It's certainly a very powerful nuke ability but I don't like most of your changes.

 

The rag-doll effect gives you more options to use the skill than a simple floor-drag would, you can adjust how and where enemies fly by jumping and/or changing the direction of your camera and that feels a lot better than a rather lack-luster slide effect.

 

Ditto to removing the ability to use it through cover. Tighten up the cone a little maybe so it's not ~120 degrees in front of you but the ability to yank people from behind cover is more or less what makes this ability. If you take that away why am I going to take Mag over, say, Volt or Frost?

 

Being able to pull allies would be nice, but could also get rather frustrating for everyone involved. This is only really useful on downed allies, on everyone else it's only good for trolling. While being able to make a last-second pull rescue would be pretty cool it's also very niche compared to the likelyhood of either accidentally or intentionally yanking an ally out of melee when that's exactly where they want to be.

 

And lastly, the damage... Just no. Yes, maxing out Pull makes it really really powerful at low levels and maybe it needs a damage reduction, but that's a pretty big maybe. It doesn't scale well and the CC it does provide isn't nearly powerful enough to justify completely removing its damage. This is a knockdown, not a knockdown with a slow, stasis effect, or anything similarly powerful...

 

As for Crush...

 

So, yeah, changing it to physics damage would be pretty cool but lots of other Warframe Ultimate abilities are reduced by armor, and considering Crush pulls people up into the air (where they can be freely shot by teammates) and then throws them around anyway it's definitely a more powerful CC effect than Pull. You're comparing it to a single very high armor enemy at high level and then declaring it bad, that's silly. It's like declaring that Frost's abilities need a damage buff because they're lackluster against Infested even though they tear through shields on Corpus and Grineer.

 

So, yeah, from a newer player, no to most of this. I don't want Toxic Ancients landing at my feet, I don't want to accidentally yank that Exalibur out of melee (or be yanked around by a troll-Mag), and overall I think the ability is more fun now than it was before it just needs some tuning.

 

First off, as for the people complaining about trolling...

We have Vauban, Who with Flux can drop down 9 Bounce pads around the control panel in a room, and then shoot out the window.

This legitimately kills an entire team, nothing else has any kind of trolling potential compared to that... Yet Vauban still has his bounce pad because it can be legitimately used as a useful tool.

There's no reason that Mag should not have her useful support tool.

And I can say from experience that having all of your enemies pulled through you or into you (or even worse pulled into the object you're trying to defend), is a lot more annoying.

Getting a face-full of ragdolled toxic ancient is never fun especially at levels 80-120

 

Now Like you said, the cover mechanic is something that shouldn't apply but I do like your suggestion of tightening the cone. The 120 degrees, pretty much your entire vision, is a little ridiculous and probably would be a better fix to the unnecessarily large zone behind it.

 

The reason for having it as knockdown is to be able to maintain sight of their healthbars, more fluid interaction with frost effects and teammates, increased visibility and stability on the battlefield, and a guaranteed ability to interact with knockdown status without having to wait for the ragdoll to settle on the ground and worrying about random terrain collision errors.

If they refined and fixed ragdolling in general to be less chaotic and more predictable that would be better.

However the current system of ragdolling was designed for kicking, hitting, and exploding enemies AWAY from you, and has poor interactions and interactions when the physics are moving TOWARDS the source.

Even if Ragdolling has the ability to make enemies go airborne by "Jump-pulling" That's even worse, and that in and of itself can be a form of trolling on higher level enemies where the damage no longer matters, shifting about and mucking up the order and positioning of the enemies.

 

Also on the Topic of Damage types for Crush.

No very very few warframes have abilities that don't ignore armor.

Especially not Ultimate abilities.

 

Crush does not function or have much use at High levels compared to say "Saryn"

Against Most Grineer, and Infested ancients, leaving her to only be somewhat useful against the Corpus.

Even Volt is more useful against Grineer than Mag, with his electric shield.

Teammates and only teammates "Being able to shoot at them" does not justify the use of 100 energy when say a Saryn could just wipe them completely and in an instant.

Making Crush Armor Piercing damage would essentially shift this focus to being weaker against light infested, and excelling at handling Grineer heavy units and ancients.

Which was Mag's original role, the effective handling, trapping, debilitation, and killing of Single Large, shielded heavy units, rather than being able to wipe entire waves of crappy trash swarm mobs.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Yg-Dosst

[Kesella]

I agree with the original poster on the armor piercing on crush, or damage scaling with enemy armor. I also agree that being able to pull teammates was great utility and I would like to have that back.

 

All other points mentioned i disagree on and find utter trash. If pull had no damage nobody would play MAG anymore, regardless how much CC she brings to the team. It used to be this way, we know how it worked: nobody liked playing her.

 

Your feelings about how she performs in survivals are purely subjective, and no amount of alleged teammates who share your opinion will back you up on that point. Pull only working in open places was just as bad, as it defies the idea of her skillset mechanics (magnetic) and Pull's overall viability.

 

I don't see MAG walking out of cover on a corpus mission, taunt the guys, and go Pull while madly flailing her melee at them when they land at her feet. Not the kind of frame.

 

On the potato alert survival alert after the survival weekend (corpus if you forgot) we went 37 minutes, in the open with me yanking everything to the center.  I remember I had 800+ kills while both of my teammates had 400ish each.  If we had a fourth we could of gone farther.

[Fulmir]

First off, as for the people complaining about trolling...

We have Vauban, Who with Flux can drop down 9 Bounce pads around the control panel in a room, and then shoot out the window.

This legitimately kills an entire team, nothing else has any kind of trolling potential compared to that... Yet Vauban still has his bounce pad because it can be legitimately used as a useful tool.

There's no reason that Mag should not have her useful support tool.

 

This really comes down to personal preference. Myself, I haven't really run into a situation where pulling someone away from enemies was going to be better than pulling those enemies away from the person.

 

Personally I'm less concerned about the trolling aspect and more concerned about the potential for accidentally yanking someone rather than dealing damage, which is going to be more frustrating for new players because it'll happen to them more, but absolutely rage inducing for older players on the rare occasions it does actually happen.

 

Personally I'd rather have a more intuitive to use ability without the possibility of that frustration than I would the extremely niche utility to pull a downed teammate out of danger.

 

 

And I can say from experience that having all of your enemies pulled through you or into you (or even worse pulled into the object you're trying to defend), is a lot more annoying.

Getting a face-full of ragdolled toxic ancient is never fun especially at levels 80-120

 

This is, if anything, easier to avoid with the ragdoll mechanics than it was with the sliding. Sliding always clumped those three poison ancients right at your feet, the ragdoll tends to just knock them down and move them a short space and you can control that somewhat with positioning and direction of the pull.

 

 

Now Like you said, the cover mechanic is something that shouldn't apply but I do like your suggestion of tightening the cone. The 120 degrees, pretty much your entire vision, is a little ridiculous and probably would be a better fix to the unnecessarily large zone behind it.

 

It's actually slightly more than your FoV at least with FoV at default settings, which can actually be a little annoying since sometimes it's nice to only pull part of the enemy, especially since they get invulnerability frames on standing up. I'm fine with the small grace area behind Mag, that's saved me a few times when things get laggy or an enemy suddenly sneaks up behind me though I'd have to test a bit to see how big it actually is. I'd say only a few meters though from what I've seen so far, though I guess it could get pretty big if its affected by range boosting mods.

 

 

The reason for having it as knockdown is to be able to maintain sight of their healthbars, more fluid interaction with frost effects and teammates, increased visibility and stability on the battlefield, and a guaranteed ability to interact with knockdown status without having to wait for the ragdoll to settle on the ground and worrying about random terrain collision errors.

If they refined and fixed ragdolling in general to be less chaotic and more predictable that would be better.

However the current system of ragdolling was designed for kicking, hitting, and exploding enemies AWAY from you, and has poor interactions and interactions when the physics are moving TOWARDS the source.

Even if Ragdolling has the ability to make enemies go airborne by "Jump-pulling" That's even worse, and that in and of itself can be a form of trolling on higher level enemies where the damage no longer matters, shifting about and mucking up the order and positioning of the enemies.

 

I'd rather see them fix ragdoll physics than change this to a sliding mechanic. I'd had quite a bit of fun getting above the defense objective and using Pull to yank people off the objective and even over the edge into a pit in some cases. Even if it is inconsistent I find it to be a much more fun to use mechanic than sliding, especially against things like Toxic Ancients >.<

 

 

Also on the Topic of Damage types for Crush.

No very very few warframes have abilities that don't ignore armor.

Especially not Ultimate abilities.

 

Crush does not function or have much use at High levels compared to say "Saryn"

Against Most Grineer, and Infested ancients, leaving her to only be somewhat useful against the Corpus.

Even Volt is more useful against Grineer than Mag, with his electric shield.

Teammates and only teammates "Being able to shoot at them" does not justify the use of 100 energy when say a Saryn could just wipe them completely and in an instant.

Making Crush Armor Piercing damage would essentially shift this focus to being weaker against light infested, and excelling at handling Grineer heavy units and ancients.

Which was Mag's original role, the effective handling, trapping, debilitation, and killing of Single Large, shielded heavy units, rather than being able to wipe entire waves of crappy trash swarm mobs.

Ash: Damage appears to be untyped for all damaging moves, seems to ignore armor.

Banshee: Sonic Boom is untyped but low damage, Sound Quake is reduced by Armor.

Ember: All abilities affected by Armor except Overheat's Area damage effect.

Excalibur: Slash Dash does Serrated Blade damage, Radial Javelin is Physics Impact damage. The latter is affected by armor on some enemies.

Frost: All damage abilities deal Freeze Damage which deals extra damage to shields but is affected by Armor.

Loki: No damaging abilities except for Radial Disarm's damage to Charger infested.

Mag: Pull ignores armor (may deal Phisics Impact damage meaning it only ignores armor on MOST enemies). Shield Polarize's shield damage ignores armor but the radial blast does not. Crush obviously does not.

Nekros: Soul Punch ignores armor, damage from Shadows Of The Dead does not.

Nova: Null Star deals Serrated Blade Damage. Antimatter Drop deals Laser damage. Molecular Prime deals Explosive Damage which is reduced by armor.

Nyx: Psychic Bolts deals Serrated Blade damage. Absord deals Forcefield Damage which seems to ignore armor.

Rhino: Damaging abilities do not appear to be affected by armor.

Saryn: Abilities deal Poison Damage, which ignores armor.

Trinity: No direct damage abilities. Link technically does unreduced damage but requires an external damage source and it's unclear if damage is reduced or not by enemy armor.

Vauban: Tesla deals Electricity damage. Vortex seems to ignore armor.

Volt: All abilities deal electrical damage, no AP here.

 

Overall I'd say the majority of abilities do deal typed damage and are affected by armor and since I had to look through all of the Warframes to compile this list I'd hazzard a guess that those abilities that are unaffected by armor have reduced damage to compensate, don't scale with ability power bonuses, and/or have no utility component.

 

Overall I'm unsure why you feel a massive AOE CC/damage ability should be focused on killing single heavily armored targets, especially when Mag's abilities as they stand are very clearly focused on dealing with groups of enemies. If your argument is "but you changed it!!!" then... sorry it's a Beta? Things are going to change and not everyone is going to be happy with those changes. Feedback is great but should focus more on problems, not "please change X to Y because I said so", which, in general your post was not doing. In this instance though I feel you're asking for a big buff to a single ability because it fits your play-style better, not because the buff is nessessarily warranted. I do feel Crush could use a bit of a boost, but not to Armor Piercing damage, that doesn't even make sense.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Fulmir

[Yg-Dosst]

This really comes down to personal preference. Myself, I haven't really run into a situation where pulling someone away from enemies was going to be better than pulling those enemies away from the person.

 

Personally I'm less concerned about the trolling aspect and more concerned about the potential for accidentally yanking someone rather than dealing damage, which is going to be more frustrating for new players because it'll happen to them more, but absolutely rage inducing for older players on the rare occasions it does actually happen.

 

Personally I'd rather have a more intuitive to use ability without the possibility of that frustration than I would the extremely niche utility to pull a downed teammate out of danger.

 

 

 

This is, if anything, easier to avoid with the ragdoll mechanics than it was with the sliding. Sliding always clumped those three poison ancients right at your feet, the ragdoll tends to just knock them down and move them a short space and you can control that somewhat with positioning and direction of the pull.

 

 

 

It's actually slightly more than your FoV at least with FoV at default settings, which can actually be a little annoying since sometimes it's nice to only pull part of the enemy, especially since they get invulnerability frames on standing up. I'm fine with the small grace area behind Mag, that's saved me a few times when things get laggy or an enemy suddenly sneaks up behind me though I'd have to test a bit to see how big it actually is. I'd say only a few meters though from what I've seen so far, though I guess it could get pretty big if its affected by range boosting mods.

 

 

 

I'd rather see them fix ragdoll physics than change this to a sliding mechanic. I'd had quite a bit of fun getting above the defense objective and using Pull to yank people off the objective and even over the edge into a pit in some cases. Even if it is inconsistent I find it to be a much more fun to use mechanic than sliding, especially against things like Toxic Ancients >.<

 

 

Ash: Damage appears to be untyped for all damaging moves, seems to ignore armor.

Banshee: Sonic Boom is untyped but low damage, Sound Quake is reduced by Armor.

Ember: All abilities affected by Armor except Overheat's Area damage effect.

Excalibur: Slash Dash does Serrated Blade damage, Radial Javelin is Physics Impact damage. The latter is affected by armor on some enemies.

Frost: All damage abilities deal Freeze Damage which deals extra damage to shields but is affected by Armor.

Loki: No damaging abilities except for Radial Disarm's damage to Charger infested.

Mag: Pull ignores armor (may deal Phisics Impact damage meaning it only ignores armor on MOST enemies). Shield Polarize's shield damage ignores armor but the radial blast does not. Crush obviously does not.

Nekros: Soul Punch ignores armor, damage from Shadows Of The Dead does not.

Nova: Null Star deals Serrated Blade Damage. Antimatter Drop deals Laser damage. Molecular Prime deals Explosive Damage which is reduced by armor.

Nyx: Psychic Bolts deals Serrated Blade damage. Absord deals Forcefield Damage which seems to ignore armor.

Rhino: Damaging abilities do not appear to be affected by armor.

Saryn: Abilities deal Poison Damage, which ignores armor.

Trinity: No direct damage abilities. Link technically does unreduced damage but requires an external damage source and it's unclear if damage is reduced or not by enemy armor.

Vauban: Tesla deals Electricity damage. Vortex seems to ignore armor.

Volt: All abilities deal electrical damage, no AP here.

 

Overall I'd say the majority of abilities do deal typed damage and are affected by armor and since I had to look through all of the Warframes to compile this list I'd hazzard a guess that those abilities that are unaffected by armor have reduced damage to compensate, don't scale with ability power bonuses, and/or have no utility component.

 

Overall I'm unsure why you feel a massive AOE CC/damage ability should be focused on killing single heavily armored targets, especially when Mag's abilities as they stand are very clearly focused on dealing with groups of enemies. If your argument is "but you changed it!!!" then... sorry it's a Beta? Things are going to change and not everyone is going to be happy with those changes. Feedback is great but should focus more on problems, not "please change X to Y because I said so", which, in general your post was not doing. In this instance though I feel you're asking for a big buff to a single ability because it fits your play-style better, not because the buff is nessessarily warranted. I do feel Crush could use a bit of a boost, but not to Armor Piercing damage, that doesn't even make sense.

Well it's not a complaint to fit my play-style.

It's a request to fill her previous niche, which no longer has a frame to effectively hold it.

 

With the general increase in levels and the effectiveness in armor, DE is going in the wrong direction to try to keep her "Useful" rather than keep her in her role... Which is essentially gives her no point.

 

People are openly admitting on this thread that crush and pull have become unnecessary and that Polarize and Attractor are the useful abilities.

Both of which are focused on the debilitation of a single target. And yes, Sheild polarize does great AOE damage, but it does not function at all without that "Heavy unit"

 

While Crush never fit this Niche, but it was a great tool for essentially holding off and outright removing much of the trash enemies and leaving the strong ones there for you to hold off with those abilities.

 

You're right, the best solution is to fix how ragdolling interacts with pull.

But the best solution would be fixing Ragdolling, but relying on a glitch and random chance on a character based heavily around tactical positioning just simply does not fit.

Now if they were pulled a set distance torwards you (a % of the maximum range), rather than relying on a physics mechanic that's unstable, as it did in the first version of it, that would solve just about all of the issues with toxic ancients, as you just move to where they are at the back of the cone.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Yg-Dosst

[Fulmir]

Well it's not a complaint to fit my play-style.

It's a request to fill her previous niche, which no longer has a frame to effectively hold it.

 

With the general increase in levels and the effectiveness in armor, DE is going in the wrong direction to try to keep her "Useful" rather than keep her in her role... Which is essentially gives her no point.

 

People are openly admitting on this thread that crush and pull have become unnecessary and that Polarize and Attractor are the useful abilities.

Both of which are focused on the debilitation of a single target. And yes, Sheild polarize does great AOE damage, but it does not function at all without that "Heavy unit"

 

While Crush never fit this Niche, but it was a great tool for essentially holding off and outright removing much of the trash enemies and leaving the strong ones there for you to hold off with those abilities.

 

You're right, the best solution is to fix how ragdolling interacts with pull.

But the best solution would be fixing Ragdolling, but relying on a glitch and random chance on a character based heavily around tactical positioning just simply does not fit.

Now if they were pulled a set distance torwards you (a % of the maximum range), rather than relying on a physics mechanic that's unstable, as it did in the first version of it, that would solve just about all of the issues with toxic ancients, as you just move to where they are at the back of the cone.

 

I'm not sure what you're saying for some of this. If her "niche" isn't useful then it's a bad niche. It doesn't matter if Mag has something that only she can do if that something isn't useful in general gameplay. Right now at lower levels at least Pull is fantastically useful. I run Bullet Attractor and Shield Polarize but rarely use them, the CC and "enemy detection" on Pull is just more useful for me, especially when my team gets swarmed. If I eventually have to turn to Crush for that utility then I don't think I'll be complaining much as long as it clears out the hoards of smaller enemies.

 

As for Shield Polarize I'm thinking the skill must function a lot differently at higher levels when shield HP gets up there because right now the only time I pop it is against Corpus and even then I have to be careful lest I pop a window and get someone killed. Sure it can do a fair bit of damage at high levels but it doesn't ignore armor, doesn't ignore shields, and doesn't have any effect on Infested (no shields). Don't get me wrong, I think it's a strong situational ability, but given the layout of most levels and the rough proportion of shielded to unshielded enemies, even among the Corpus, I don't see it as the god ability you're making it out to be and Pull has saved my rear more times than Shield Polarize has.

 

What I'm saying with Crush isn't that it couldn't use a small buff, but that it wouldn't really benefit much from being changed to Armor Piercing damage and I'd rather see it changed to Physics Impact damage and have an invulnerability state added to it (maybe a shield of debris or something for an animation effect).

 

Overall I'm not getting what you mean with your last bit about Ragdoll physics. Yes, the physics are a little glitchy, but not horribly so. The main culprit seems to be interaction with guard-rails on Grineer levels but there are also a few others. Overall though, not bad enough IMO for a rework of the skill since as things stand most of the best pull angles (straight across, up at almost any angle, and pulling people above you down into the floor) don't exhibit the glitchy behavior beyond some missed animation frames on certain enemies standing up.

 

No idea what you're taking about with the ability "relying on a gltich"

[Kesella]

I

 

No idea what you're taking about with the ability "relying on a gltich"

 

If you have a AOE weapon such as the Ignis (flame thrower) or Ogris (rocket launcher) ragdolled enemies get hit several times and can effectivly one shot lv 100+ enemies with one burst.

[Fulmir]

If you have a AOE weapon such as the Ignis (flame thrower) or Ogris (rocket launcher) ragdolled enemies get hit several times and can effectivly one shot lv 100+ enemies with one burst.

Ah okay, yeah, there are a few glitches like that I just didn't know about that one specifically. There's one for Saryn's ult too, which is probably why people think it's so much more powerful than it's actually supposed to be. In reality it does 1000 damage modified by Duration and Power but that still puts it well short of one-shotting high level enemies even when those are maxed out.

That'll get fixed eventually though, probably something to do with hit detection and the rag-doll state clearing a variable when it shouldn't, or maybe it's that it lets it hit all the various hit boxes on the model at once. Either way though, I don't think the ability needs that glitch to be effective. It stops large chunks of enemies from killing me just fine without me having an AoE weapon.