Mag's Pull And Crush: She's Not Mag Anymore...

[PHOBIE]

It just means that at higher levels you need to be a specialist to still be effectively killing stuff. Ragdolling allows for additional ways to play the game. You can see it as a glitch if you like, or you could believe that the Tenno have some tricks up their sleeve that are even more powerful than you thought. Sometimes, variety is good. Sometimes it allows for too easy gameplay. Tenno are supposed to be god tier when maxed out. As long as the game can encompass that, it is fine.

[Yg-Dosst]

It just means that at higher levels you need to be a specialist to still be effectively killing stuff. Ragdolling allows for additional ways to play the game. You can see it as a glitch if you like, or you could believe that the Tenno have some tricks up their sleeve that are even more powerful than you thought. Sometimes, variety is good. Sometimes it allows for too easy gameplay. Tenno are supposed to be god tier when maxed out. As long as the game can encompass that, it is fine.

The game having to manually kill a enemy because it's laying half-way on a box is not a "Trick up their sleeve"

It's a horrendously immersion breaking and buggy system that can lead to abuse.

The entire map-enemy interactions with a mass ragdolling ability like pull, just makes me want to barf.

I mean no insult to DE, but Ragdolling is a terrible mechanic right now and has terrible bugginess with interactions with the scenery, that cannot be accounted for in any kind of intelligent play.

 

I'm not sure what you're saying for some of this. If her "niche" isn't useful then it's a bad niche. It doesn't matter if Mag has something that only she can do if that something isn't useful in general gameplay. Right now at lower levels at least Pull is fantastically useful. I run Bullet Attractor and Shield Polarize but rarely use them, the CC and "enemy detection" on Pull is just more useful for me, especially when my team gets swarmed. If I eventually have to turn to Crush for that utility then I don't think I'll be complaining much as long as it clears out the hoards of smaller enemies.

 

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No idea what you're taking about with the ability "relying on a gltich"

 

Her Role or niche as it was at every point throughout the game before Pullv2, was Heavy enemy management.

It might not be your playstyle with Mag, and I respect that. But that's what she excelled at and it was a very useful aspect to have, as no other warframe effectively handled and contained High Level Heavy gunners and humanoid bosses like Mag did.

She no longer handles ever remotely as well as she used to because of Ragdolling interacting poorly and not canceling Shockwave Moa's and Gunner's knockdown effects, etc. etc. That's why I'm vouching my opinion for it to be returned to knockdown.

 

And as you mentioned that it's useful when Toxic ancients get caught on the ground and inclines and weren't pulled, to which I replied that it is essentially relying on the poor buggy interactions between the ragdoll effect and the map.

Ragdolling just does not function in a predicatable manner, and the reason I want some kind of stability in that is so you CAN know exactly where, how, and in what direction those toxic ancients, and heavy gunners are going to be going...

[Aishi]

Mag was hilariously useless and the definition of press 4 before any changes a couple or so months ago.

People who say otherwise are wrong. A quick look into the history of the forums tells exactly that. And the dev did exactly that, buffs and reworks.

It's not all baseless, she was useless relative to other frames and that was a fact.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Aishi

[Fulmir]

The game having to manually kill a enemy because it's laying half-way on a box is not a "Trick up their sleeve"

It's a horrendously immersion breaking and buggy system that can lead to abuse.

The entire map-enemy interactions with a mass ragdolling ability like pull, just makes me want to barf.

I mean no insult to DE, but Ragdolling is a terrible mechanic right now and has terrible bugginess with interactions with the scenery, that cannot be accounted for in any kind of intelligent play.

 

Just my 2 cents on this but I've found the ragdoll mechanics to be fairly predictable.

 

 

Her Role or niche as it was at every point throughout the game before Pullv2, was Heavy enemy management.

It might not be your playstyle with Mag, and I respect that. But that's what she excelled at and it was a very useful aspect to have, as no other warframe effectively handled and contained High Level Heavy gunners and humanoid bosses like Mag did.

She no longer handles ever remotely as well as she used to because of Ragdolling interacting poorly and not canceling Shockwave Moa's and Gunner's knockdown effects, etc. etc. That's why I'm vouching my opinion for it to be returned to knockdown.

 

And as you mentioned that it's useful when Toxic ancients get caught on the ground and inclines and weren't pulled, to which I replied that it is essentially relying on the poor buggy interactions between the ragdoll effect and the map.

Ragdolling just does not function in a predicatable manner, and the reason I want some kind of stability in that is so you CAN know exactly where, how, and in what direction those toxic ancients, and heavy gunners are going to be going...

 

Not having shockwave canceled seems to have been an overall decision on DE's part to make those enemies more effective and harder to deal with. Given that the current difficulty curve peaks out below the top  of the player power curve (translation the end-game gets easy after a while) I support this.

 

As for Toxic Anicents, that's not exactly what I was referring to, though I did mention the two in proximity. Heavier enemies tend to get flung shorter distances than lighter ones, as a rule, and the pull mechanic as a whole compared to the slide mechanic tends to not land enemies right on top of you. This makes dealing with things like Toxic Ancients or Grineer Heavies much more manageable because it means you're not landing the nasty thing right at your feet.

 

On the subject of pulling things down so they skid along the floor, that's how I would expect it to work in any sort of decent physics simulation. You're applying an increased downward force so there's going to be more friction and some of the force lost pressing against the floor so you would expect enemies to move less. This isn't reliant on enemies "catching" on the floor it's just physics.

[LunariaN-]

pretty much agree with Pull tho.

Right now, its justa mess. nothin co-op.  also that buggy rugdoll with horrible movement (coz its depends on host a lot) gotta fix that first or just change the type

Edited October 5, 2013 by LunariaN-

[PHOBIE]

Ragdoll is fun mechanic. It adds variety to the game. I can understand people not liking it. Maybe it could look slightly better, and enemy movement adjusted a little, but people saying that it was a terrible mechanic and state that as a given just remind me that everyone likes their own opinion.

 

With MAGs fairly recent changes I think we can be happy for now, and let DE concentrate on other much more pressing and important issues, while we wait for players to gather more experience with that. If you think your points are important let me remind you that not all important issues are pressing, and not all pressing matters are important.

[Reaver_X]

I have to agree with this. Pull should pull teammates, that was extremely useful before. I don't get why pull is so strong, esp it being a utility type move, there's no point in pull a dead body since you kill it before they get pulled. And crush should be stronger for sure. 

 

my guess is pulling teamates was abused.....by trolls :D

[Reaver_X]

and also....mag is actually good now, her crush needs to do a debuff to affected enemies, but aside from that she's fine.

[Anthenator]

I started with Mag as my first frame too, and I think her crush and pull are just bad right now. They don't... work dependably. I really want the synergy between Pull and Melee back. However, the question for me is, how do you solo Mag if her abilities are purely cc based? It becomes near impossible to solo at higher levels if your abilities little or no damage, especially with no escape like the other frames. That also needs to be addressed when improving her skills.

[Archwizard]

I wouldn't shrink the cone on Pull to anything less than 90 degrees (perhaps more like 100 degrees, for a little wiggle room). If you think this is still a bit much, if I recall correctly, Pull's currently at 170 degrees.

Crush's range (which is relatively low in terms of ultimates) implies that you're supposed to open by Pulling enemies into range of it, and it'd be nice to be able to do so for less than the cost of the ultimate itself.

 

Just as an aside though, it'd be nice if Pull had some effect to knock down heavy units but only drag them most of the way, as a compromise between the current iteration and previous.

With heavy units being pulled all the way to the caster in Pull v2, Toxics would instantly poison you, Heavy Grineer would instantly radial blast, and so on.

With heavy units not moving at all as in Pull v3, it's all but useless as a crowd control in defenses or mobile defenses when they're slapping the cryopod.

I know this seems a bit of a "have your cake and eat it too" thing, but there are significant risks in trying to be tactical around heavy units, despite seeming like those would be the units you'd want most to pin down for a while.

[Fulmir]

I started with Mag as my first frame too, and I think her crush and pull are just bad right now. They don't... work dependably. I really want the synergy between Pull and Melee back. However, the question for me is, how do you solo Mag if her abilities are purely cc based? It becomes near impossible to solo at higher levels if your abilities little or no damage, especially with no escape like the other frames. That also needs to be addressed when improving her skills.

 

You're not making sense. CC is one of the most powerful things for a solo frame next to Stealth because it lets you take enemies out of the fight and the current high damage on Pull lets you flat out remove rooms of enemies at lower levels.

 

As for Melee synergy... eh. Yeah it's there but you can do as good if not better with a shotgun and Penetrating mods because of the silly way enemies use to pile up. Personally I'd rather not see the frame reduced to a couple of easy tricks and rather meh otherwise.

 

I wouldn't shrink the cone on Pull to anything less than 90 degrees (perhaps more like 100 degrees, for a little wiggle room). If you think this is still a bit much, if I recall correctly, Pull's currently at 170 degrees.

Crush's range (which is relatively low in terms of ultimates) implies that you're supposed to open by Pulling enemies into range of it, and it'd be nice to be able to do so for less than the cost of the ultimate itself.

 

Just as an aside though, it'd be nice if Pull had some effect to knock down heavy units but only drag them most of the way, as a compromise between the current iteration and previous.

With heavy units being pulled all the way to the caster in Pull v2, Toxics would instantly poison you, Heavy Grineer would instantly radial blast, and so on.

With heavy units not moving at all as in Pull v3, it's all but useless as a crowd control in defenses or mobile defenses when they're slapping the cryopod.

I know this seems a bit of a "have your cake and eat it too" thing, but there are significant risks in trying to be tactical around heavy units, despite seeming like those would be the units you'd want most to pin down for a while.

 

Good to have numbers on that, I was just suggesting a reduction in the area of effect because right now it's not a, shall we say, very selective ability. It basically hits everything in the hemisphere of the room that you're pointing at and when you're not one-shotting everything you hit it might be nice to leave some things standing so they can be more easily shot at, even if it means they're shooting back. Hence my thoughts on turning it into a Cylinder (turned on its side) with a wide radius, rather than a cone effect.

 

Not sure what you mean on the Ancients. Just make sure you have even a little elevation when you activate the ability and point it down a bit. It'll yoink everything up to and including an Infested Ancient, it just won't send the bigger things flying very far but it will ragdoll them and get their attention which can be enough to save a Cryo-Pod in a bad spot.

[Mimibomber]

Mag was hilariously useless and the definition of press 4 before any changes a couple or so months ago.

People who say otherwise are wrong. A quick look into the history of the forums tells exactly that. And the dev did exactly that, buffs and reworks.

It's not all baseless, she was useless relative to other frames and that was a fact.

So now Mag is a "press 1 and win" frame ... sure that is making her useful. pffft.

[Archwizard]

Not sure what you mean on the Ancients. 

 

I mean pulling a Toxic Ancient away from a defense target doesn't work with the current iteration of Pull, it just causes them to ragdoll on the spot... which means that the objects or people you were trying to get it away from are still in range of its cloud.

Works well with the previous one, but there is a point with other heavy units (ie Grineer) blowing Mag away once they're drawn close. Makes my strategy of sweeping them up with Hate kinda difficult.

[Glisp]

I've noticed if you shoot an enemy while they're being pulled towards you, the gunshot seems to do more damage than normal... There's also a slight delay for some enemies dying such as the heavy gunner. She doesn't die after doing this until she hits the ground or a wall. This "yo-yo effect" is noticeable with shotguns especially.

 

As for the complaints about Mag, I have to say one thing. I can't vouch for old Mag's pull because I could never get my hands on her systems due to the droprates being so screwed up and finally had to buy her close to the end of 9.8 after I became a grandmaster. Didn't get to use her until update 10 started however by this time, her pull had already been changed.

 

I do agree about crush being weaker than pull to say the least.  And actually, you CAN attack enemies knocked down by pull. Typically, I use melee finishers on them to do some quick and dirty damage.

 

I have saw old pull executed once in the dojo's pvp once. Not on me but someone else. (of course I was pulled too because of pvp being weird and all in the dojo) What I will say is that while it looked more magnetic, there was also something less natural looking about it. I'm not doubting its usefulness in the past but in the present it still is useful and I think that the new pull is a bit more popular than old pull because of its damage and it does still cc higher level enemies. This I can confirm in Xini and Varro. (among other places, some not defense missions.) Though I do have to agree about pulling toxic ancients... it's a very bad idea.... Then again "yo-yo effect" I described above could help keep them out of your way.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Glisp