Let’s put this “Warframe is pay to win” thing to rest

[Lord-Childeric]

I think some people are madly yelling P2W everywhere cause they have life beside warframe (or no personnal income, most likely young people) and can't bare the grind, therefore, when they see people skipping this time wall, they feel like they can't catch up and get the satisfaction to be among the first with that nice prime frame, weapon, MK3 loaded railjack etc. It's all about orgueil. 

[DarthIronclad]

I have seen worse when it comes to p2w,taking the recent puerto Rico event drama in world of warships...where basically you have to grind like a slave for an entire month, the duration of the event to be able to get the ship,or you pay to get it done instantly, and it costs hundreds of dollars too...easilly more than twice of prime access here. The devs even tried to 'aplogize' for this drama, but in the end it ended up being a PR disaster,as everyone already knew they are not even hiding it. Also they have made questionable choices to the game this year...mainly with the research bureau earielr this year. 

 

Tldr world of warships did an event where you can  pay to skip event or grind like a slave for a month which basically pissed off everyone 

[General-Pacman]

Lets assume for a second that "faster means winning" is actually true; that would make warframe a pay-to-win game.

So? what's the problem with that?

Selling platinum to progress faster is the main and almost only source of income for DE, and i can assure that warframe is a game with one of the best (if not THE best) free-to-play models in the market.  Complaining about this here means that you don't have an idea of the horrors lurking in the game industry. This goes to everyone complaning about this: NO ONE FORCES YOU TO PAY, and there's absolutely no form of progress in this game that can be obtained only by spending real money. Some people have the time and patience to grind through it, others prefer to open their wallets to have a faster taste of the experience, maybe because of lack of time, or simply to inflate their egos.

Also, i see a lot of complains about this, but i yet have to see someone offering an alternative. What is a GOOD free-to-play model, if not the one we have here?

Edited December 20, 2019 by General-Pacman

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

33 minutes ago, General-Pacman said:

Lets assume for a second that "faster means winning" is actually true; that would make warframe a pay-to-win game.

So, what's the problem with that?

Selling platinum to progress faster is the main and almost only source of income for DE, and i can assure that warframe is a game with one of the best (if not THE best) free-to-play models in the market.  Complaining about this here means that you don't have an idea of the horrors lurking in the game industry. This goes to everyone complaning about this: NO ONE FORCES YOU TO PAY, and there's absolutely no form of progress in this game that can't be obtained only by spending real money. Some people have the time and patience to grind through it, others prefer to open their wallets to have a faster taste of the experience, maybe because of lack of time,  or simply to inflate their egos.

Also, i see a lot of complains about this, but i yet have to see someone giving an alternative. What is a GOOD free-to-play model, if not the one we have here?

Just because someone else is worse, doesn't make it ok to do it less. And while the vast majority of Warframe's model is very fair, we are now entereing new territory where time and cosmetics are not the only things gained by paying.

[General-Pacman]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Just because someone else is worse, doesn't make it ok to do it less. And while the vast majority of Warframe's model is very fair, we are now entereing new territory where time and cosmetics are not the only things gained by paying.

And what is that new thing we are getting with money now? Because i honestly cant find anything in this update (or previous ones) that made me feel there was something new in the mix. Each time i bought something with platinum, was simply because i was too lazy to grind for it, even cosmetics. I never payed for something here because it gave me the feel there was no other way of getting it.

[Goodwill]

3 hours ago, General-Pacman said:

Also, i see a lot of complains about this, but i yet have to see someone offering an alternative. What is a GOOD free-to-play model, if not the one we have here?

Ideally it would be nice if DE paid me to play Warframe and got their income from tax reimbursements and government support.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Goodwill

[WingR84]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb SteelOverseer666:

Thats like uh.... Your opinion man. It all is based on what you consider "winning".

In MY opinion winning in warframe is achieving the goal that you have set for yourself. In warframe you can pay money to reach those goals instantly. In my opinion that is pay to win.

Ive played railjack for about 15 hours now and I dont even have enough resources to build a single MK3 part.

I can either keep grinding for the next month and maybe "win" (achieve me goal of having a MK3 fitted ship) OR

I can grind for prime parts for a few days to trade for platinum (that someone else paid real money for) OR

I can spend 21.99 Myself to be able to build every MK3 Part today and "win" instantly.

The only instances where people get to their goals in a reasonable time frame are those in witch DE makes a profit.

Literally Paying to Win.

 

No, you're paying to skip the grind... you dont WIN, because you cant "WIN" Warframe.
You could also buy plat and then buy the mods/reactor/forma for a warframe before... that is the reason why warframe is free2play for people like you.

If you dont want to pay then you have to farm more... that is the downside of not beeing "premium", but why do you even want to skip the grind? You have to farm your intrinsics anyway. Well, you could buy a XP booster... but for what? We know that we will use the ship later and passive farm exp anyway.

If you want your own ship... then you have to farm or pay for the premium content, but YOU CAN REACH IT AS F2P... there is nothing in warframe that requieres you to pay money to get it.

 

You know what would be somehow pay to win? If there would be enemys that you can only kill with a weapon that you can only buy for RL money. But since other games lock you out of new releases if you dont buy the new addon... even what wouldnt be pay2win, because you could still join a group where someone has that weapon to carry you.

 

So not only can you join a crew... you can build your own railjack and get anything there is to farm without paying RL money, so NO PAY2WIN!
Especially not because you do PvE and not PvP...

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

17 minutes ago, General-Pacman said:

And what is that new thing we are getting with money now? Because i honestly cant find anything in this update (or previous ones) that made me feel there was something new in the mix. Each time i bought something with platinum, was simply because i was too lazy to grind for it, even cosmetics. I never payed for something here because it gave me the feel there was no other way of getting it.

Most items take a very limited amount of resources. We're talking like an hour or two worth of grinding even without a booster. The new railjack components cost a small fortune in resources. And unlike prime parts where you still pay the resource costs but can rush them in the foundry, rush drones cover the full resource cost and skip the timer.

The closest example I can think of would be if amps had builds costs that were 50x higher and required killing Eidolons to acquire those resources, and DE offered rush drones to skip the resource costs and build time. So I have a mote amp after 10 hours and Player B has a 223 because they paid for it. I can't grind elsewhere to make myself stronger for Eidolon hunts, so my only option is to grind more with the Mote amp until I can afford a 111. I use Eidolon hunts as the closest example because you specifically need the amp to progress, unlike everywhere else in Warframe.

[WingR84]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb DarthIronclad:

I have seen worse when it comes to p2w,taking the recent puerto Rico event drama in world of warships...where basically you have to grind like a slave for an entire month, the duration of the event to be able to get the ship,or you pay to get it done instantly, and it costs hundreds of dollars too...easilly more than twice of prime access here. The devs even tried to 'aplogize' for this drama, but in the end it ended up being a PR disaster,as everyone already knew they are not even hiding it. Also they have made questionable choices to the game this year...mainly with the research bureau earielr this year. 

 

Tldr world of warships did an event where you can  pay to skip event or grind like a slave for a month which basically pissed off everyone 

that is totally different... in world of warships you use the ship to fight other players... in warframe.. YOU DONT....there is no pay2win, because you having something doesnt make others lose, because the game os coop and not PvP

[Test-995]

Yeah indeed this game is p2w for years.

[(XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK]

I understand we each have our own opinions on what is pay to win and what is not. Mine are my own and I understand a lot will not agree with me. I gave a comparison scenario of p2w of a pvp game against the p2w of a pve based game. Where as it stands in relation to my scenario, there is no super op frame or weapon we can only buy with real money and no way else. That is how I was just making one statement towards the potential option of what I see as a p2w feature for a game like ours. DE has to make money from somewhere, but I feel like as unfair as the game can appear to be at times wit rng, at least DE does not force us to have to buy anything with real money and we can trade items for plat if we really need/want something with plat, or just want to skip the wait through our own semi-free way, if you don't count the fact that someone had to purchase the plat to begin with.

I think most of  us can agree that:

1. Warframe offers via platinum an OPTIONAL pay to skip method for everything in game that can be skipped or bypassed the wait/farm with plat.

2. Everyone can earn/farm for items to trade for platinum from other players (as long as there is tradable plat floating around from other players who bought plat) so we can use that platinum to buy things like boosters, frames, cosmetics, or to pay for skipping a crafted item wait time 

3. Every item that is still in the game (not counting the rare mods and weapons etc or on the warframe market) can be farmed for as long as it may take by just playing and either crafting or trading one item for another from another player. 

4. If platinum was not tradable, then this WOULD become a pay to win game. Due to platinum being the warframe market currency to buy things we cannot craft like boosters (althought we can get them from daily login rewards) and pretty much 95 percent of the cosmetic items and platinum being the means to skip a wait time.

5. DE gives us the option. RNG on RNG sucks yes, but we have the tools. Some of us have jobs and cannot sit there and farm for hours to get something. I get that. I have a full time job and if I really just want something Ill buy it. But I don't have to. It's just a game after all. There really is no winning in it to me from the way i see it.  And yes that is just me. I am not a competitive person so I don't feel like anyone is winning against me or that I am winning against anyone else in Warframe. They provide a free to play entertainment for us. We can choose to play, we can choose to pay.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

26 minutes ago, WingR84 said:

that is totally different... in world of warships you use the ship to fight other players... in warframe.. YOU DONT....there is no pay2win, because you having something doesnt make others lose, because the game os coop and not PvP

P2W is not exclusive to PvP game types. It's almost 2020, P2W has evolved beyond competitive games. You don't think PvE game developers have figured out how to exploit items or paid advancement that provide a gameplay advantage?

Edited December 20, 2019 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

4 hours ago, Grave.Knight said:

best end game stuff.

You found endgame? Cause laltey everything in my inv kills anything 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

39 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

P2W is not exclusive to PvP game types. It's almost 2020, P2W has evolved beyond competitive games. You don't think PvE game developers have figured out how to exploit items or paid advancement that provide a gameplay advantage?

Honestly yes. I've had boosters for the past year due to my excessive prime accessory pack spending habits. And I can say affinity boosters are pretty much essential  to leveling in the game (yes you can do it without it. But the amount of time you save is pretty much unbeatable) same with mod drop chance booster And resource drop (chance) boosters. 

Sure you can go without. 

 

But if you chose to invest money you get things faster and ultimately  "win" 

Also you're forgetting that it's a player run economy. You just saying "👀 go in to trade chat and trade for yer Plat" is something that's easier said than done. You've not accounted for player wants and what's wanted from the player in return. Prices and the economy across different platforms. The market in warframe is a free one not a good one. With that being said buying Plat vs going to trade is also Heavily incentivized. Makeing it more of "pay to win faster" also the lich hunter set (which I bought) was kinda pay to win as soon as the update was out I had the accessibility to go kill liches and start gearing up for lich trades and etc. Warframe isn't solely pay to win. It's "pay to win faster" bro

The last paragraph was for op

Edited December 20, 2019 by (PS4)sweatshawp

[Volinus7]

That first reply technically concluded the topic. 

 

[SordidDreams]

6 hours ago, (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

Pay-to-Win

Implies that you have to Pay real money to get ahead or an advantage over other players who don't spend real money

Wrong right in the first sentence. Pay-to-win means that you can spend money to get ahead. Warframe 100% qualifies.

Why is mine the correct definition and not yours? Because yours relies on the idea of reasonable grind. Just how much grind is required before you consider payment mandatory? An hour to get a gun? A day? A week? A month? A year? Ten years? There's no cut-off point, it's all a matter of opinion, and so worthless as a definition.

6 hours ago, (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

EVERYONE can EARN plat to buy any of the advantages/boosters/weapons/frames etc from the Warframe market (except cosmetic PA, but those again are not an advantage).

No, everyone can't. Where do you think plat comes from? Every unit of plat was paid for with real money by someone somewhere. Only some people can earn plat, and to enable that some other people have to buy it.

Edited December 20, 2019 by SordidDreams

[AzureTerra]

What exactly are you "winning". Yes you can pay and it will get you a head of a timewall or get you some bling but thats about all.

[--K--Sharkfin]

6 hours ago, SteelOverseer666 said:

I can spend 21.99 Myself to be able to build every MK3 Part today and "win" instantly.

It's not called "win", it's called "save time".

In real world we could pay more to save our time. A typical example would be taking a bus/metro vs calling a cab/Uber.

Both paid or unpaid players could reach the same goal eventually. Both of them could "win", the only difference is the time taken.

Paying for faster progression ≠ pay to win

Simply put. Pay to win is something that prevents non-paid players from using something, resulting in a difference of power for which the non-paid players could never achieve without paying.

In Warframe, you could obtain every gears without spending a dime (besides the founder packs). So it is certainly not pay to win by definition.

Edited December 20, 2019 by SHArK-FiN

[(XBOX)XGN DrFeelGood]

6 hours ago, (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

Pay-to-Win

Implies that you have to Pay real money to get ahead or an advantage over other players who don't spend real money

Is a real currency purchase advantage that cannot be earned via in game. This advantage applies to the purchaser, and gives the purchaser an advantage in ultimate outcome in the state of play with other players.

IE: In the case of a PVP(Player vs player) game, this would be like buying a 5.00$  weapon that does way more damage than any other weapon in the game and the only way you could get the weapon was by buying it with a real currency. And since it is a PVP game, your advantage is over the other players who do not have that weapon, since you would have a competitive advantage against other players in the game because your weapon does more damage than their free weapons could ever do.

Warframe is primarily a PVE (player vs enemy) game with small playerbase in PVP. But keep reading. 

Warframe does not offer anything that is ONLY purchasable WITH REAL MONEY that gives any players any advantage vs other players. Every item in game except PA accessories armor and visual attachments can be earned via playing and farming missions for the item and or trading for platinum to buy items and boosters from the Warframe market.

Paying for platinum (that CAN be earned and traded for) to buy a weapon, frame, booster etc that CAN be earned in game is NOT pay-to-win

Using platinum to skip a wait is not pay-to-win

Paying for MR locked weapons and/or frames (when you do not meet the MR requirements) through PA is not pay-to-win because they CAN be earned and farmed in game.

You can see it as an advantage in a sense, but you are not winning, because those performance items can be earned through just playing. They're not specific to real currency only transactions.

EVERYONE can EARN plat to buy any of the advantages/boosters/weapons/frames etc from the Warframe market (except cosmetic PA, but those again are not an advantage).

NO ONE can BUY an advantage on Warframe with real money that is not available outside of spending real world money.

 

Thus Warframe CANNOT be considered a Pay to Win game. Everything outside of certain cosmetic items (that do not affect performance) can be earned by playing, just as everyone else can.

While that is broad statement that makes a lot of sense the grind on top of grind kills the time people need for content.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

On topic op why do you care so much that someone thinks the game is p2w. It dosent affect your gameplay 

[SordidDreams]

37 minutes ago, SHArK-FiN said:

Paying for faster progression ≠ pay to win

If getting to the end of progression is winning, and I'd argue that in an endless game with an unfinished story like WF it is, then it absolutely is pay-to-win.

Edited December 20, 2019 by SordidDreams

[WingR84]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Hiero_Glyph:

P2W is not exclusive to PvP game types. It's almost 2020, P2W has evolved beyond competitive games. You don't think PvE game developers have figured out how to exploit items or paid advancement that provide a gameplay advantage?

You refer to Warframe beeing free to play, because some people buy plat to save themself some time. Where is the problem? THAT IS THE REASON WHY IT IS F2P for those who dont want to buy stuff.

When you pay... then you skip content. Once you're out of content.. there isnt much to do besides farming more plat by selling prime stuff. Right now an Ivara system alone is worth 70p on PC... farm the Lua amalgum mission (no clue what it is called in englisch) to get axi relics... and make some plat. I'm sure that you can drop those parts faster than you can farm your railjack parts. ANY prime release is like this... those who cant wait shower those who farm for them with plat.

For me there ZERO difference if i get ivara prime today or next month... it's MR exp, but i i sell today and rebuy it later i make a very nice profit. I also dont understand what you need a nice railjack for right now... so many ppl got theirs modded and i just join others and save my plat. Once i got my skills up to 10 i will be able to build 20 ships MK3 ships.... why rush it?

Beeing mad at those who pay so you can be a freeloader and then "calling them out" is the next level facepalm...what do you do with a MK3 ship? Do the missions to farm recources for stuff that you dont need to build anymore?

[Rev14]

it's funny to see people using pretty much the same exemple but conclude on different opinion.  Either way,if it is a pay to win or a pay to skip doesn't change anything. We should argue if WF should go on with the "loot-shooter-grind" gamemode ( where the content is to get the item) or .. giving us a damn thing to fight with those items. 

[TARINunit9]

Warframe is "pay for convenience" rather than "pay for power". That's very often the crucial difference in "pay to win" debates

[5H4DE]

More like Pay2StaySane as it stands currently.

Edited December 20, 2019 by TheRealShade