Let’s put this “Warframe is pay to win” thing to rest

[xBloodySin]

By some people's definitions here, buying a single-player game is "pay-to-win"...

[Sanxxieh]

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but Warframe is Pay 2 Win. Speeding up dojo stuff with platinum (gives an advantage over people who can't do it), speeding up foundry with platinum (also gives an advantage), ability to buy railjack upgrades with platinum, better drones - for platinum, boosters - platinum, warframe/weapon slots - platinum. I could keep going on and on. Yes, Warframe IS Pay2Win. The more you pay, the faster you progress. The faster you progress the more advantage you have.

Although the Warframe's P2W is nothing to worry about, since it is a coop game, not a PvP game. So relax.

[General-Pacman]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Most items take a very limited amount of resources. We're talking like an hour or two worth of grinding even without a booster. The new railjack components cost a small fortune in resources. And unlike prime parts where you still pay the resource costs but can rush them in the foundry, rush drones cover the full resource cost and skip the timer.

So, since rush drones also cover resource costs, what they do is reduce even more the required time to obtain something; which is nothing different from what i said. Even if they spare you from grinding the required materials, those materials are still obtainable without paying, even if the amount is way bigger than what we are used to see in other parts of the game. Again, it's just a matter of what is more valuable to you: your time, or you money.

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by General-Pacman

[Wakata]

This concept is nothing new with Railjack. 1st when it came out i was like "OMG SO MUCH PAY TO SKIP, BIG NONO"
...
Then i looked at the rest of the game "AH ITS THE SAME WHAT A WONDER?!"
Like where is the problem? You were always able to buy weapons, frames, prime parts from other players to get them instantly.
I like the warframe so from time to time i buy some plat and have myself a good time in the downtown.
If you cant stand the feeling that you dont have something instantly but others can if they use plat so they achieved their personal goals before you do, then ok I know that feeling, i rushed few MK3 stuff in first 2 days and then i realized i didnt have to coz farming ress is not that horrible like forums tries to tell you. So now I could go like "OH THATS A FAULT OF DE! THEY MADE THE GAME IN THE WAY THAT IT PUSHED ME TO DO THIS UAAAA SO EVIL" or... I could get along with a fact that it was me who was hyped for some MK3 stuff and wasnt able to control myself and just play the game and progress gradually enjoying my sweet time.
Warframe was always giant pay to skip. Does it break the gameplay for me?
Nope, I dont have to care what others people do, to enjoy the game. 

[(XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK]

9 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

On topic op why do you care so much that someone thinks the game is p2w. It dosent affect your gameplay 

True indeed, and it never has affected my gameplay or what I think about the game. I just created a topic for everyone not just me to discuss this Warframe is "pay to win". I enjoy looking at everyones reasoning in why they think it is. Whether we put this to rest or not, we can still see each others way of thinking on the matter, and I find that interesting to see what everyone thinks. Even if I don't agree with someone or someone does not agree with me. 

[AlfredDean]

have you ever heard the term "pay to accelerate" because that's what you're describing. No explicit, significant power boosts (especially not ones that are exclusive to payed currency), just an accelerated path to them. 

2 hours ago, Sanxxieh said:

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but Warframe is Pay 2 Win. Speeding up dojo stuff with platinum (gives an advantage over people who can't do it), speeding up foundry with platinum (also gives an advantage), ability to buy railjack upgrades with platinum, better drones - for platinum, boosters - platinum, warframe/weapon slots - platinum. I could keep going on and on. Yes, Warframe IS Pay2Win. The more you pay, the faster you progress. The faster you progress the more advantage you have.

Although the Warframe's P2W is nothing to worry about, since it is a coop game, not a PvP game. So relax.

 

[Vit0Corleone]

If you want to do that pay-to-win analysis, you first need to define what constitutes winning on the context of Warframe.

On competitive games, this is easy because it's their nature. Not so much on games like this.

Also, what exactly is "winning" is subjective and depends on the person.

[(XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK]

1 minute ago, Austringer said:

DUDE...THE GAME IS FULL ON P2W NOW, ESPECIALLY AFTER RAILJACK

They hinder your farming methods, alter drop rates just to force ppl into the real money market, simple as that

Even the most veterans who have almost everything admits it now....stop defending this, the game is more expensive to play properly that all triple a games buy to play now

You need boosters, first and foremost, to steadily advance your mastery else u are locked out of weapons..... they slow down progress to a snail just to force ppl into the shop, period

It's funny how we are forced to play this free game that forces us to spend money to get to this point where we are forced to feel like we have to win in a game with no foreseeable end?

So If I pay money, I am automatically winning? I am so ahead all the other noobs who don't spend a dime. I spend REAL money to get ahead on a FREE game? Who is really winning in the end? DE and those who eventually catch up without spending a dime. Those who reach a point we can all reach in the game regardless if we spend money or not. In the end, once DE decides the game has reached its stopping point. Everyone will eventually catch up. Who is first? Who wins? Who gets the mental gold medal for getting everything first? What do we win for spending money on the game? Sure it advances us ahead quicker than not spending money, but what is at the end waiting for you?  A sense of accomplishment? The sense of accomplishment is there for those who did not spend money, because they sat through the wait times and farmed for their items. When you spend money (in hopes of getting to a certain point first) you falsely fill a void inside you that tells you you're winning. DE knows this, they're a developer and they have crafted the game around being free but yet preying on the people who want to feel a sense of accomplishment by being ahead before everyone else, so they can in fact feel like they're winning. When in fact, they have not really won anything, they just spent money to get to a certain point before those who did not.

7 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

If you want to do that pay-to-win analysis, you first need to define what constitutes winning on the context of Warframe.

On competitive games, this is easy because it's their nature. Not so much on games like this.

Also, what exactly is "winning" is subjective and depends on the person.

How true this is.

But does that mean that we can win in Warframe or that we can really only win in our minds because we paid to get somewhere or something first?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If we feel like Warframe is Pay to WIn? Tell me, what have you won non-artificially for your efforts?

 

 

 

[Sanxxieh]

59 minutes ago, AlfredDean said:

have you ever heard the term "pay to accelerate" because that's what you're describing. No explicit, significant power boosts (especially not ones that are exclusive to payed currency), just an accelerated path to them. 

 

"Pay to Accelerate" is a softer term for "Pay 2 Win". If someone achieves something faster - they win. Simple as that. The real no Pay2Win system would have only skins/colours/themes and such. Stuff that does NOT affect the gameplay. Any advantage giving by ingame purchases makes the game Pay2Win.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Sanxxieh
typo

[vegetosayajin]

17 hours ago, Grave.Knight said:

I never understood where the idea Warframe is pay to win came from. It's not even really pay to skip. Buying guns and frames doesn't automatically get you the best end game stuff.

Yep, the only way as I see it to buy all the mods leveled up from trade chat and, buy all the weapons/frames that you need and want and even than you will need to forma, to learn, to play the game more.That said there are some mods that you can't buy(primed fury for example).But it is somewhat pay to skip, just the price of you buying all these things that I mentioned will be insane and you will still need to play to get the other stuff.


 

1 hour ago, Austringer said:

...

I have almost everything, I have never paid for anything except tennogen skins and that one prime liset.I don't see your point, the only thing that I hate not because of bugs is the focus farming and there is now way in game to skip that with money.

Edited December 20, 2019 by vegetosayajin

[(XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK]

MY mind has been changed. Back in early December I dropped Warframe and have been playing another game recently that I haven't played in years, and from the way this particular game handles their MTX; Warframe in my mind is definitely a form of P2W, and it shows greatly not just from the MTX but also the player friendliness (playing the game itself, not other players) of a game that is not P2W vs one that is P2W.

In spite of Warframe being mainly a PVE game with very little focus on PVP; DE has provided the players with a means to achieve almost instant gratification in terms of "game quality/ease of access/progression" by use of the premium currency we know as platinum.

We can use this platinum to skip farm times or wait times by buying a weapon, warframe, pet,  maxed out mod, arcane etc outright from a player or the store without having to play and earn the item.

We can buy boosters which progress us through the game quicker than those without via leveling and resource farming and now mod farming boosters. 

We can purchase MR locked weapons via Prime access even if we are not the require MR rank for that item (That does put you ahead in terms of stance vs other players who are the same MR rank as you and would not be able to get that weapon unless they also paid real money for the PA).

You cannot after all use a MR locked weapon when you are not the required MR rank unless you bought it purely from the PA with real money.

Sure vs other players in this mainly PVE game our status really does not matter, everything for the exception of a few cosmetic items can be earned in the game via trading for platinum to buy cosmetics and such but at a much slower rate than buying something outright with your own personal real currency.

In a way DE's MTX system potentially hurts them and their player base more than we may realize.  

How about the platinum economy and trade prices?

If you see the side effects from instant gratification you can see they burst temporary growth but do not prolong consistent growth and gameplay since it snubs the rewarding feeling of earning something.

The sooner you get something the sooner you will probably get tired of it, especially if you did not work for something.

The easier you get something, the less rewarding it may feel and in a way may lead to negative feelings or guilt in regards to spending money to get to a certain point first, when in the end, most will catch up without spending a dime, it will just take them longer.

Sure we don't all have time to sit and farm for something, and platinum and PA is a great way for people to enjoy the game who don't have the time to farm and want to just jump right in and play, but platinum has potentially created a bigger problem than most may realize.

It's great that we can trade for it and use it to buy store items even when we have not spent a dime. 

Ofc this being a F2P game, DE has to bring in their money somehow, but how long will this model really last that DE has given to us?

I have paid for things because I wanted something right away and I did not want to be bothered to farm for something. I played since '14 with this mindset. Warframe is a wonderful game, but the way the MTX are set out, is the worst part of this game I feel, because it drives everything else in the game like wait times, RNG with farming etc. Sure we have the freedom of choice, and no you are not actually winning in the sense of getting an award other than your own personal feelings of gratification, but don't forget the cost vs the effort that can be put into anything and what it means to your overall enjoyment of a game.

[Peter]

This game IS pay to win, and thats all.

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

Warframe has pay-to-win features, but they're not intrusive enough to make the whole game pay to win.

[General-Pacman]

40 minutes ago, (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

Warframe in my mind is definitely a form of P2W

 

41 minutes ago, (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

we have the freedom of choice, and no you are not actually winning

So... you think the game is pay to win? or you don't? I'm a bit confused

[Zalabim]

On 2019-12-20 at 7:45 AM, Sanxxieh said:

"Pay to Accelerate" is a softer term for "Pay 2 Win". If someone achieves something faster - they win. Simple as that. The real no Pay2Win system would have only skins/colours/themes and such. Stuff that does NOT affect the gameplay. Any advantage giving by ingame purchases makes the game Pay2Win.

Someone who plays longer than me will get the same kind of advantages. Does that make Warframe play2win?

[(PSN)oblivion_13test]

I can understand why a company should not monetize PVP giving people who are willing to spend an advantage going head to head against other players is really not a good idea. For co op and PVE who cares. The only people "winning" playing video games are pro gamers and content creators/streamers that can get paid IRL for playing. For us mere mortals it is just a fun way to entertain ourselves. 

[MacKerris]

3 minutes ago, Zalabim said:

Someone who plays longer than me will get the same kind of advantages. Does that make Warframe play2win?

Yup, that would be play to win...

Edited January 15, 2020 by MacKerris

[khazlol]

you only pay2win fashionframe.

 

[BlackVortex]

On 2019-12-19 at 10:39 PM, (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

Edit: My mind has been changed. I believe WF is a form of P2W. Disregard my previous posts as they were from my own ignorance. 

I agree with your first statement that WF is not P2W for a number of reasons:
Although I have bought around 5K platinum over the last 6 years, I've made over 100K platinum in trades.
For the past 5 years the platinum I bought from DE was strictly in support of the developers and not for the sake of getting platinum.
I could have been a full F2P player and still be where I am today(minus the few steam syandanas I bought).

I disagree with saying only exclusive items can make a game P2W. In certain games, you pay $1 and for that $1 you forever gain +100% exp and loads of other boosts which will speed up your progress in the game. This can go up to an insane amount of getting around 20-50x the progressionspeed of F2P players which basically means that F2P players will NEVER be able to catch up to a player spending this amount of money in the game. When that F2P player is at level 50, that P2W player is at 100 (50 levels difference means you just always beat the other player). In that sense, the progression speed could be considered an exclusive item I guess.

On 2019-12-19 at 11:02 PM, Aldain said:

Edit: I retract this statement, the drones seem to drop rarely lategame so they are not plat exclusive skip methods.

I think you are correct by saying "Pay to not play" is bad, but we have had that with every frame and weapon which you can buy straight off the market.

And you were correct about the drones too. They only recently removed them from the market and added them to the late game reward rotation.
But I don't really care about any of this, since there is no real PvP in this game and to get certain(perfect) stats on the RJ components they still have to play.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

to me, Pay-to-win means to obtain a distinct and clear advantage that can only be obtained via purchase, and is NOT also available for free to earn in -game.

to this extent Warframe isn't Pay-to-win. anything you can buy that boosts progress can also be obtained in the game. when you also consider that Rush Drones are getting removed from the Market on all platforms - and that was about as close to P2W as I've ever seen in Warframe - it's clear that P2W is not a direction that DE wishes to take, thankfully.

 

[BlackVortex]

On 2019-12-20 at 12:53 PM, Sanxxieh said:

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but Warframe is Pay 2 Win. Speeding up dojo stuff with platinum (gives an advantage over people who can't do it), speeding up foundry with platinum (also gives an advantage), ability to buy railjack upgrades with platinum, better drones - for platinum, boosters - platinum, warframe/weapon slots - platinum. I could keep going on and on. Yes, Warframe IS Pay2Win. The more you pay, the faster you progress. The faster you progress the more advantage you have.

Although the Warframe's P2W is nothing to worry about, since it is a coop game, not a PvP game. So relax.

everything you just mentioned can be obtained by platinum which can be obtained through trades, so you can get that as a free player, hence not pay2win.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

I'm really not even sure what the point of this thread is anymore >.>

I feel like the title would more aptly be "Business seeks to make profits off game mechanics they designed! How dare they!?"

Yes, Warframe sells stuff.  No, there's nothing to "win", as there is no competition in-game, save for those you imagine to be real.  DE has no annual/quarterly competitions. They have no "seasons" where players compete head-to-head for notoriety or money.  They have no function in this game that you could not enjoy without spending a dime.

I mean, even weapons that are MR locked aren't a thing past, like, MR 18, maybe?  I'm MR24 and I haven't bought a single frame or weapon outright. Ever.  That doesn't make me lesser or greater than anyone else, that isn't to brag.  It's just to prove the point that I got where I got through practice and patience, and anyone else can to.  

How that translates to "pay-to-win" is beyond me.  You can't pay to break through the Rails.  You can't pay to defeat ALL the quests.  Even in the case of the drones in RJ, you first have to FARM the part to rush-repair it. 😛

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

to me, Pay-to-win means to obtain a distinct and clear advantage that can only be obtained via purchase, and is NOT also available for free to earn in -game.

to this extent Warframe isn't Pay-to-win. anything you can buy that boosts progress can also be obtained in the game. when you also consider that Rush Drones are getting removed from the Market on all platforms - and that was about as close to P2W as I've ever seen in Warframe - it's clear that P2W is not a direction that DE wishes to take, thankfully.

 

I think that there's several flaws in this. I think that it should be "distinct and clear advantage that can only be obtained via purchase, and is not also REASONABLY available for free to earn in -game." I say this because in the recent Star Wars game, you could buy Heroes to dominate the enemy team, or grind for 40 hours without spending in-game currnecy on anything else to get them. Even thought they were available to earn in-game, the grind for them was crazy. 

Furthermore, Rush Drones were actually less pay-to-win than the regular game when compared to typical weapons or Warframes. With Warframes and weapons, you can either buy them with plat, or farm the blueprint and resources to build it. With Railjack parts, you have to farm the blueprint no matter what, and then you have the choice to build them with either plat or resources. Also, Drones have a set cost of 50p while weapons as bad as the Skana go for 70 in the Market. 

[General-Pacman]

Well, this is the issue im having with this thread (and this topic in general): every single person on the internet has a different opinion on what pay-to-win means, so this discussion is completely pointless to me. If you ask me, i really cant think of pay-to-skip features in warframe as pay to win, because we are not winning anything, it's just a tradeoff: you can grind for hours and save your money, or open your wallet and save your time. you win something and lose something at the same time. The thing is, both options can lead you to the exact, same outcome; it's up to each player to choose what they prefer to invest. But again, that's just MY opinion.

If the point of this thread is to keep throwing opinions here and there then be my guest and keep chasing your tails with this topic. But if we are trying to reach a consensus, then we should bury this thread and move on, because this isn't going anywhere.

Edited January 16, 2020 by General-Pacman

[(XBOX)DShinShoryuken]

On 2019-12-19 at 2:39 PM, (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

Edit: My mind has been changed. I believe WF is a form of P2W. Disregard my previous posts as they were from my own ignorance

Interesting....

Not many have a mind change....

Could you inform what post changed your mind and what your new Outlook is on your topic?

Edit- never the mind.....found it ...and you might want to rethink your mind change ...just a thought

Edited January 16, 2020 by (XB1)DShinShoryuken