Returning the "stamina" parameter for melee

[Malkavian407]

Melee, after processing, turned out to be too powerful. That's cool! But often devalues other types of weapons. And Some combinations of certain Stances Mods are much stronger and more effective than others. It turns out that it is much easier and faster to kill 15-30 grineer Heavy Blade for a couple of clicks than to shoot each of the machine gun or rifle.(actually, this applies to any AoE-unbalanced weapons, but it's not about that now)
And I believe that stamina will different a means for balance, if correctly distribute its expense for every strike and fulfill consumption stamina for every Moba, which received damage from melee

IMPORTANT! When stamina depletion melee should not be blocked, only included penalties for damage and attack speed.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Malkavian407

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

Oh god why do you want the return of the dreaded Stamina system on Warframe that plagued this game in 2013-2015?!!

[Hixlysss]

Yeah, I'd rather DE bring guns up to be on par with melee, rather than bringing melee down dude. We had stamina before, it was removed for a multitude of reasons. The trade off of melee is you have to get close to the enemy, if you melee you're going to be getting hit more vs if you're shooting and jumping around.

IMO if guns had something similar to Condition Overload it would help, as well if they had more innate/forced procs which is where Melee gets a lot of it's power from.

[LSG501]

Melee are the only weapons that really 'scale' well into higher levels and even though I personally feel that the melee changes has actually reduced variety on builds and weapon choices, I wouldn't want them 'nerfing' in any way. 

If anything the other weapons need an upwards balance pass, especially primaries and it's being made quite obvious when you're doing lich missions imo. 

You might have figured this already but I do not want a stamina bar, this game doesn't need more micromanagement, it's already got too much, especially with railjack....

[Malkavian407]

57 минут назад, Hixlysss сказал:

Yeah, I'd rather DE bring guns up to be on par with melee, rather than bringing melee down dude. We had stamina before, it was removed for a multitude of reasons. The trade off of melee is you have to get close to the enemy, if you melee you're going to be getting hit more vs if you're shooting and jumping around.

IMO if guns had something similar to Condition Overload it would help, as well if they had more innate/forced procs which is where Melee gets a lot of it's power from.

On fact, on my senses, melee gives more protection than, for example, SomePrime (with that thanks to Sonar enough several hits for killings ~100 lvl)

[Malkavian407]

58 минут назад, LSG501 сказал:

Melee are the only weapons that really 'scale' well into higher levels and even though I personally feel that the melee changes has actually reduced variety on builds and weapon choices, I wouldn't want them 'nerfing' in any way. 

If anything the other weapons need an upwards balance pass, especially primaries and it's being made quite obvious when you're doing lich missions imo. 

You might have figured this already but I do not want a stamina bar, this game doesn't need more micromanagement, it's already got too much, especially with railjack....

I very long want, that would AoE component warframe was weakened, and periodically write subject in this direction. A couple I am very sad that the majority of the weapons are just garbage, though it has a lot of interesting guns. The new mode is cool, but I want to and the main game was beautiful and interesting.

[Malkavian407]

1 час назад, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 сказал:

Oh god why do you want the return of the dreaded Stamina system on Warframe that plagued this game in 2013-2015?!!

I remember. But stamina, in ~2014, was not only on melee and at that time the warframe was quite different, the damage received was higher and the damage inflicted was lower. Today, the gameplay has become more thoughtless and players need to wean from the habit of killing a dozen mobs with a couple of button presses.

[Lone_Dude]

Ah, yes, I remember the WALKframe update. Forums were set on fire, hotfix with rollbacks came in quick. Doesn't happen nowadays because DE are not as dependant on community anymore.

Warframe ain't Dark Souls. Not every game needs a stamina bar. In it's current state Warframe REQUIRES you to have high KPS and mobility, it's basically a musou game. Breaking down that dynamic by nerfing the player without doing anything about enemies and game modes is a stupid idea.

[DroopingPuppy]

On 2019-12-22 at 1:48 AM, Malkavian407 said:

Melee, after processing, turned out to be too powerful. That's cool! But often devalues other types of weapons. And Some combinations of certain Stances Mods are much stronger and more effective than others. It turns out that it is much easier and faster to kill 15-30 grineer Heavy Blade for a couple of clicks than to shoot each of the machine gun or rifle.(actually, this applies to any AoE-unbalanced weapons, but it's not about that now)
And I believe that stamina will different a means for balance, if correctly distribute its expense for every strike and fulfill consumption stamina for every Moba, which received damage from melee

IMPORTANT! When stamina depletion melee should not be blocked, only included penalties for damage and attack speed.

Hell no. Why we are bothered to do that?

[SpringRocker]

1 hour ago, DroopingPuppy said:

Hell no. Why we are bothered to do that?

Because in melee 2.0 it was basically people spamming slide attacks. Those who weren't would just run through and spam a button. Those who didn't do either focused on combos, knowing it wasn't as effective but they just didn't want to spam a button even if it was weaker.

In melee 2.99 (or close enough to 3.0) the combos were reworked along with meme-striking. As a result the people doing slide attacks from before stopped doing so as they stopped getting the high bonuses from it. People that did melee and used the combos basically stopped trying to do so (it's really just holding a button while spamming... press a different button and combo stops where it is and starts a new one). Basically it comes down to spamming either melee or heavy attack.

When a HUGE system and part of the game, that was once famed for having intricate details that flowed, turns into a system all about button spam something should be changed. One of the simplest ways to do it is to modify the system to have a point in pressing a button and reason to do it, not just "spam-slam-2-win".

Edited December 24, 2019 by SpringRocker

[DroopingPuppy]

It is no more than make the cooldown to the ability, and we are spammed them anyways. Spend the combo counter to increase the damage seems already enough.

[Twilight-Knight]

It's only too powerful for the level we usually only facing now, the damage is fit for unarmored enemies and lv 150 approximately armored.

Going in endless mission, facing real high enemies would show you different result. And this system screw up bad to all melee mechanism and the idea of the developers seem to be not good as before.

Not all weapon 1/5 can have a fit riven now. Before I can meet up lv 250 standrads but now facing lv 120 in endless is a real bullsh*t due to flexibility low.

[Xzorn]

Melee is about 50% less DPS than it used to be with moderate conditions. No idea what you're talking about being stronger.

I made a post a while back to change Channeling by using the Stamina system.
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1059951-melee-30-channeling-the-answer-was-already-here/

Essentially what DE did instead was similar but with Heavy Attacks.

To each their own on which is better but I still believe Stamina was a good option for these types of maneuvers instead of what we have now which is either spam Heavy attack or don't use it at all. In the system I made any weapon could use Channeling / Heavy Attacks without any loss in functionality and I think that's the important part DE missed with the melee changes. Weapons not built for it would simply take advantage of big swings and special functions less often.

[-Kittens-]

On 2019-12-21 at 9:48 AM, Malkavian407 said:

Melee, after processing, turned out to be too powerful. That's cool! But often devalues other types of weapons. And Some combinations of certain Stances Mods are much stronger and more effective than others. It turns out that it is much easier and faster to kill 15-30 grineer Heavy Blade for a couple of clicks than to shoot each of the machine gun or rifle.(actually, this applies to any AoE-unbalanced weapons, but it's not about that now)
And I believe that stamina will different a means for balance, if correctly distribute its expense for every strike and fulfill consumption stamina for every Moba, which received damage from melee

IMPORTANT! When stamina depletion melee should not be blocked, only included penalties for damage and attack speed.

You LITERALLY have no idea what you're talking about. Melee does 45% of the potential damage it used to and has an absolute cap on both crits and status.

[SpringRocker]

27 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

You LITERALLY have no idea what you're talking about. Melee does 45% of the potential damage it used to and has an absolute cap on both crits and status.

I'd like to know what ranged weapons have a 5m radius from point of contact and scale higher depending on how many you've hit already.

Guy, don't play games, we all know that you don't hit 1 enemy at a time.

Edited December 26, 2019 by SpringRocker

[-Kittens-]

3 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

I'd like to know what ranged weapons have a 5m radius from point of contact and scale higher depending on how many you've hit already.

Guy, don't play games, we all know that you don't hit 1 enemy at a time.

Your assumption everyone rocks a penile compensation zaw is garbage, never mind that doesn't change the facts.

Edited December 26, 2019 by -Kittens-

[SpringRocker]

35 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

Your assumption everyone rocks a penile compensation zaw is garbage, never mind that doesn't change the facts.

The point was you hit multiple enemies at once in rapid succession with damage that scales with how many times you've already hit them. You're complaining about how it's doing less damage (some how?).

No one cares or mentioned the size of your penis, so why don't you leave it out of the forums and put it back where it belongs.

[Tyreaus]

Most of the damage output likely comes from the remaining mod-scaling aspects, Blood Rush especially. If melee prominence is an issue, that's probably the target of most changes. Making it a bonus triggered on heavy attack for a duration, for example (not my suggestion).

I don't think it is. I'd rather see firearms adjusted instead—maybe applying the shot combo counter from snipers, so there's a modicum of skill involved. But arguments could be made about creeping power upward not being good for the game overall, and that's fair.

Stamina, however, isn't the way to go. It doesn't really address the power issue and, instead, adopts the Archwing blink problem. To exemplify: imagine melee-only sorties, wherein lies a lot of waiting for a bar to recharge. That doesn't work out terribly well. If one wants to add a bit more thought behind the button pressing, give it some rhythm requirements for optimal damage indicated by weapon flashes (the same sort of visual effect on bows). And if melee scaling is still an issue, look at and change the couple of mods that keep that scaling a thing, or bring other weapons up to snuff with similar systems.

[Uthael]

I like the current state.
I have Rubico as primary. Due sniper combo counter, it scales really well with enemies. Hunter Munitions headshots FTW.
Twin Grakatas as secondary. For taking down anything under lvl120. (riven and Primed Pistol Ammo Mutation maxed)
Either Hirudo for heals or a zaw. As stated before by @SpringRocker, melee turns you into a blender.

Rubico still wins in damage, but needs aiming. And if you want to hit multiple enemies, planning for punchthrough.

[Uthael]

I liked channeling and would much rather bring it back than limit everyone with stamina.

Many people prefer brainless blending playstyle.

Everyone else had channeling, which would use your energy as stamina meter.

[OvisCaedo]

5 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

The point was you hit multiple enemies at once in rapid succession with damage that scales with how many times you've already hit them. You're complaining about how it's doing less damage (some how?).

I think his claim was that melee is actually numerically weaker than it was before the 3.0 rework, not that it's weaker than guns.

which... I'm pretty sure it is weaker than it used to be, conceptually. Base stats are higher for a lot of things, including base crit chance, so end crit chance with new nerfed blood rush is probably pretty close to what reasonable combo counts were with old blood rush. Base damage is rarely boosted enough to come anywhere close to what combo counter used to apply to every basic attack. Condition overload is drastically weaker and DE used a technically accurate but heavily misleading chart to downplay it in the patch notes, but it was disgustingly overpowered and nonsensical before, and is still a good mod now. There's a whole massive messy bog in stances, too, since every attack in every stance had its own damage multiplier and potential for forced bonus effects, but DE never documented those themselves and people only found numbers through manually testing; they have to re-manually test everything for all of the new stances because DE again didn't really acknowledge those things existing. The famous spinning move of heavy blades' Cleaving Whirlwind used to have like... triple the damage multiplier it does now, for example. But most of these changes are a huge mess and very difficult to sort through.

And I'm keeping the estimate sort of moderate for that. Some people talk about the absurd maximum potential of old melee, with combo count multipliers much higher than a pretty easy 2.5x, or using status-stacking weapons to near-instantly prime enemies for massive CO multipliers, or maiming strike and the fact that it was multiplied BY blood rush. This extreme end was often irrelevant to most of the playerbase and overkill to do that kind of stuff, of course, but the old "high end" completely demolishes the new one.

The main things that improved are that a lot of individual weapons and weapon classes that were just garbage before are now able to perform a lot better. The low end of melee performance got pulled WAY up, and that might be what a lot of people are feeling when they get amazed by melee's output currently. That and heavy attack builds now potentially existing and some of them being really strong. Not sure that they'd actually be stronger than what old melee would have been for them, but it's a lot nicer to build for at least.

all of that being said: yes, melee is generally much stronger than guns still, even if it's weaker than it was before. But the proposal that the rework made it so much stronger than stamina should be brought back is just absurd.

Edited December 26, 2019 by OvisCaedo