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Senguash

First we had arca plasmor, it got nerfed, then we had catchmoon, it got nerfed.

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Oh, right, that thing where only crit headshots give you any extra bonus at all, and it's still not the headshot bonus itself. Catchmoon's always had that, so - yeah, I can see how that's a nerf, but it's also 1/2 damage at worst. Considering the age of the thing, the game's content has scaled way out of reach of the Arca Plasmor and would have regardless of the headshot thing, but that does make sense. 

The self-damage thing is just a terrible, terrible way to offset much of anything. I could somewhat see it if it was a reasonable penalty like a knockdown, which would expose you to attack but not be instant death and would depend on just how high level an environment you were in, and also prevent you from shooting your feet for near invulnerability like with the Staticor up to its enemy level dropoff. But it's particularly dumb, yeah, when it's a penalty for a weapon that's already worse than another that doesn't have it, etc.

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On 2019-12-24 at 5:28 AM, NigglesAU said:

Wasnt catchmoon nerfed for its range more than anything though?

Yes. Catchmoon's damage was untouched. It was just given extreme damage falloff, making it basically a dedicated short-range backup gun. 

On 2019-12-24 at 5:10 PM, Lone_Dude said:

I think self-damage is supposed to offset the POWER OF MIGHTY AOE WEAPONS lmao. It's DE and their amazing balance as usual. It would make more sense if we couldn't reach higher KPS with non-self-damage weapons, but as it stands right now - it's just stupid and uncalled for.

Arca Plasmor had it's headshot multiplier removed. It's range was cut as well - at some point it had a nice interaction with Ivara where you could pilot the projectile around with her Navigator, but now it just disappears.

Nah, self-damage is in the game because DE's prior games all had explosive self-damage, they didn't really consider the scaling aspects, and whenever people bring up the issues with self-damage we get a bunch of self-damagers going "lol it's fine, you just need to git gud" which means that DE nowadays basically tries to make self-damage impossible without actually removing self-damage. It's actually kind of funny.

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On 2019-12-25 at 3:10 AM, Lone_Dude said:

Arca Plasmor had it's headshot multiplier removed. It's range was cut as well

Actually its range wasn't cut, just bugfixed. Its falloff as shown in the stats was not being applied in practice. The devs just never noticed that 'til Fortuna dropped.

And the headshot multiplier was... kinda obviously unintended; that's the bonus players get for bothering to aim carefully... so applying it to a half-dozen enemies at once, none of whom are even under the reticle, just because the huge projectile did some damage to their heads... it clearly goes against the intention, IMHO.

On 2019-12-25 at 3:10 AM, Lone_Dude said:

I think self-damage is supposed to offset the POWER OF MIGHTY AOE WEAPONS lmao. It's DE and their amazing balance as usual. It would make more sense if we couldn't reach higher KPS with non-self-damage weapons, but as it stands right now - it's just stupid and uncalled for.

I gather it was introduced to curb Tonkor-spamming which was making other weapons (and aiming) virtually redundant. But that was before my time in the game.

Nowadays, it's just for flavour, as far as I can tell. Blowing yourself up in co-op is embarrassing, and inconvenient for the kind players who pause to revive you. But in solo? Awesome fun! (When I'm in that sort of mood.)

And players who don't enjoy it can just pocket-level the self-damagers and ignore them, secure in the knowledge that they can (as you said) get more efficient results without the risk by using other weapons. So at this point there's just no reason to take self-damage off the weapons which have it.

Sadly, my self-generated-hazard of choice was the Javlok. I'm still crestfallen how they took self-damage off its primary fire. Ogris just... isn't the same 😥

My only consolation was reading feedback from players who enjoying using Javlok as a stat-stick with the damage reflection Mod for Sword & Shield weapons, so at least some folks were having fun with the thing... and then that got nerfed too, I hear.

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On 2019-12-23 at 5:28 PM, George_PPS said:

That the favorite weapons often get nerfed because players love and enjoy to use them is the worse design and update methodology. This creates a lot of dissatisfied and very unhappy players who then just leave and abandon the game. That’s why the player count peaked in 2017-2018 and then continuously drop over time. Sad situation. 

Not sure players love and enjoy their "favorite" weapons so much as they feel pushed to use something that can actually kill the target's they're facing.

While yes, most people seem to be lemmings in that they'll equip and mod for level 100 ESO smack downs when running meso fissure capture missions, but for the most part when you as a developer release new content that makes even level 100 ESO smack down builds feel weak, you're kind of corralling everyone into the mindset of looking for the best weapon.  I use my Odonata Prime in RJ, but I'm not going to pretend that energy shell - it's primary means of defense - is any good when missile impacts simply pass through it and kill me anyway.  I'm not even sure disarray works on homing missiles.  No wonder people are flocking to the Amesha - it's the only one with abilities that tangibly work.  Every other Archwing just offers spectacle and share the exact same problems the Amesha solves.

So does the Amesha need nerfed?  Sure... if they address fighter/crewship and Archwing balance as a whole first.

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The aspects of gameplay balance, brave bugfixing and continuous rebalancing should all be in an equilibrium.

Stuff like bugfixing a bunch of weapons, even if they turn out to be some of the most popular weapons in the community is critical to the game's overall, long-term health at the smaller cost of some of the short-term fun. It's a necessary thing in really good development.

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On 2019-12-24 at 5:36 PM, CuChulainnWD said:

Yep. Amesha works well, and as advertised, balanced just right. The onus is on the operator to keep yourself alive by systems management. So why mess with it? Because the other three are lack luster is a poor excuse. The other three could do with a few buffs.

Itzle for example could do with a double or tripple normal flight speed.  Make its invisibility either Loki based or Ivara but with a 25% reduction to its flight speed. Make Zip line have a much longer reach, stun one target, and be able to pull yourself into the target for melee strikes if they ever fix that noise.

Elytron should be made into a super tank. Same speed, big buff to health armour and shields. Make all of its missile types seeking, and much faster than current.  Elytron can play "Limpet" to the Railjack, piggybacking along its ventral section for better arcs of fire.

Odinata the flying pig just needs buffs to its range and that they actually work with and for the Railjack.  All 4 Archwing types would then be viable choice for Archwing Jockeys to support a Railjack.

It would also be nice to be able to choose your Archwing in mission from the station. It is there, we might as well be able to use it as the situation warrants.
 

Bingo, the problem is not that Amesha is too powerful, it's that EVERY OTHER ARCHWING is simply totally nonviable.

Amesha also highlights a bit of an overall problem that Warframe has had for a while, which is how completely out of whack relation between player durability and what could be called "ambient damage" (the damage that you basically cannot avoid due to the volume of enemy ranged attacks many of which are hitscan) is, and how it necessitates overwhelmingly powerful tanking abilities or pre-emptive nuking.

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On 2019-12-22 at 7:59 PM, peterc3 said:

 It is such a mystery as to why they keep nerfing Rivens for things that are more popular. There is literally no way we could ever anticipate that happening.

It is not a mystery. The whole point with the Riven system is to give _unpopular_ weapons a boost. It is/supposed to be an automated way of balancing existing weak weapons.

And popular weapons are generally sustainable high DPS weapons, as in "overpowered" weapons. So they do not need the Riven boost for balance. Sometimes weapons are greatly overpowered and DE go in a change the weapon directly.

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Yeah sure buffing rivens for unpopular weapons blablabla, well i tell you secret, there are many weapons that no amount of % on rivens will save, they are just trash no matter what. Also i dont see ANYONE using some old weapons just cause they have some riven for it, almost everybody sticks to the "meta" weapons, (mostly kitguns and obviously weapons with actual good "starter" stats) i dont see anybody using rivened akbolto (insert your least used secondary here) and boasting how hes kicking butt with it cause some riven.

Also i wanted to buy Shedu riven but i can smell its dispo nerf from miles, its gonna be exactly as plasmor/catchmoon/now cryophon. So i just keep my plat and not invest in that riven, thanks for saving me money DE.

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Actual question: Which issue do you think players want to have more?
"The game is too easy/it's boring/there's no challenging content," or,
"They nerfed the weapon that kills everything instantly."

If the weapons are nerfed, it's not fun to use that weapon because it takes more hits.. if it's not nerfed, the game isn't fun around it because it's predictable and easy.

I don't know which one you guys like more, but people seem to hate both.

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