Didn't they say DE should buff everything instead of nerf? Time to buff the enemies

[844448]

8 hours ago, DrBorris said:

 

No need to worry, people are blowing enemies with 1m damage left and right so I'm sure that will be the endgame wanted by the community and sortie would become a hard endgame

[Aldain]

8 hours ago, DrBorris said:

That little yellow line on the bottom is the exact same line as the other chart, Kosma are just that absurd. Buffing the base numbers of enemies has made an already broken scaling system even more broken.

Sweet merciful clem, just when I thought they were going to start actually addressing the issue of Grineer being so much more obnoxiously durable than the others...

But nope, DE went full "DOUBLE DOWN" on it.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

33 minutes ago, 844448 said:

No need to worry, people are blowing enemies with 1m damage left and right so I'm sure that will be the endgame wanted by the community and sortie would become a hard endgame

I'm not sure you understand what we are saying here. We are talking about enemies that have ~4.5M eHP at level 100. They also deal insanely high damage.

This is essentially the same eHP and damage that multi-hour endurance runners would run into in the Void, before all of that got changed.

So unless you are saying that DE should force all players to use the type of cheese that allowed endurance runners to do what they did, then maybe DE should tone things down.

This is at the point that only cheese frames/weapons can deal with these enemies. Not even Rhino or Chroma can defeat them without extremely good weapons. This is the sort of thing where Trinity and Revenant become necessary for the sole reason that they do percentage damage (especially now that Covert Lethality no longer one-shots).

And to make it worse, the missions are structured to where you will almost never have all 4 players in the same area. Someone will be outside to do the space objectives, meaning old setups like Nova + Banshee + Rhino + Trinity can't be done, because at least one of those can't be there.

I have seen players doing level 1000 content. It isn't easy. In many ways, it isn't fun.

[George_PPS]

12 hours ago, Test-995 said:

No no, nerfing us while buffing enemy is simply unfair, we should get revert for any nerfs and then they can get 1 million base HP and 1 trillion armor.

I am all for buffing enemies 1000% instead of nerfing us 1000%. It feels very different. Enemies growing stronger and stronger is great. Keeping them the same but nerfing our gears and movement all the time  while introducing  bugs is NOT fun. 

[George_PPS]

12 hours ago, RX-3DR said:

So if they gave us back the old melee damage mathematics, but we exponentially ramp up the enemy health to a point where killing an Grineer Officer with the top tier melees still take 10 seconds, it'll be fine?

It will be fine psychologically. It is not fun to see the best meta weapons or mechanics or ranges destroyed/nerfed again and again. 

[SordidDreams]

[DE]Steve: Armor shouldn't have scaled exponentially (duh).

Also [DE]Steve:

9 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Spoiler

 

 

 

LOL GAME BALANCE WHAT'S THAT

13 hours ago, 844448 said:

What do you guys think?

That RJ grineer are tougher because they're encountered in much smaller numbers. If the regular grineer that come in large groups had the same stats, AoE weapons and abilities would dominate even more than they already do.

 

Edited December 24, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Learicorn]

Hell no. This is a horde based shooter, there are literally infinite amounts of enemies and only 4 players max. One shotting is not a big deal at all, in fact we need that to be able to survive.

[844448]

2 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

I'm not sure you understand what we are saying here. We are talking about enemies that have ~4.5M eHP at level 100. They also deal insanely high damage.

This is essentially the same eHP and damage that multi-hour endurance runners would run into in the Void, before all of that got changed.

So unless you are saying that DE should force all players to use the type of cheese that allowed endurance runners to do what they did, then maybe DE should tone things down.

This is at the point that only cheese frames/weapons can deal with these enemies. Not even Rhino or Chroma can defeat them without extremely good weapons. This is the sort of thing where Trinity and Revenant become necessary for the sole reason that they do percentage damage (especially now that Covert Lethality no longer one-shots).

And to make it worse, the missions are structured to where you will almost never have all 4 players in the same area. Someone will be outside to do the space objectives, meaning old setups like Nova + Banshee + Rhino + Trinity can't be done, because at least one of those can't be there.

I have seen players doing level 1000 content. It isn't easy. In many ways, it isn't fun.

Really? I can think some ways of dealing with them, start with Vauban and his new Bastille, Nyx with psychic bolts combined with chaos, Mag polarize with magnetize, we don't need to kill them right away, do we? We can play it tactical by softening them before going in for the kill. Didn't they say they want a more tactical gameplay? There you go, support softening enemies before damage dealer goes for the damage/kill

Has that disappeared from warframe long enough to the point we forgot the teamwork and strategy?

[Paradoxity]

10 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Really? I can think some ways of dealing with them, start with Vauban and his new Bastille, Nyx with psychic bolts combined with chaos, Mag polarize with magnetize, we don't need to kill them right away, do we? We can play it tactical by softening them before going in for the kill. Didn't they say they want a more tactical gameplay? There you go, support softening enemies before damage dealer goes for the damage/kill

Has that disappeared from warframe long enough to the point we forgot the teamwork and strategy?

I mean, on your second point, Teamwork is kinda hard in Crewships since they're, at most, a 2-man show (And frequently they're 1 tenno  to a ship kinda deals)

That said, I agree both that there are ways of handling them- I like my tank build Nidus or Garuda for killing boarding parties and Revenant or Mesa  for boarding- and that they probably need a balance pass because their health and damage are probably a little high. DE likes to hammer on about how they want players to have the ability to do content with the things they like, but, up front, RJ troops melt some of my favorite frames without much I can do to  prevent it. 

[Vyra]

17 hours ago, 844448 said:

Heard kosma grineer units are tough enough to take some hits instead of one shot like our usual play, I think we can transfer some of the kosma grineer stats into the enemies.

I think the reason why warframe is too easy is because the enemies are weak enough to be killed with one bullet and with kosma grineer being tougher than usual, I guess we can transfer at least the base health to old enemies (grineer, corpus and probably infested) to make them not too easy from the start considering you can reach 100 damage per bullet pretty easily even at beginning level.

What do you guys think?

No, sorry.

I mean the entire system needs to be adjusted then..or anyway...

In my opnion every enemy should be like the Kosma/Exo Grineer...BUT with a lil something added:

Weakspots whould receive 10xdamage, headshots should be insta kill...
AoE weapons will have only 2-10% chance to hit weakspots.
The more accurate one aims the more dmg it should deal.

Not just mindless bullet sponges...

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

18 hours ago, Test-995 said:

Eh, revert melee 2.0 damage scaling first, then we will consider that.

Why? So only Heavy blades zaws and pole arms are viable in melee? Oh and redeemer prime 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

18 hours ago, Test-995 said:

No no, nerfing us while buffing enemy is simply unfair, we should get revert for any nerfs and then they can get 1 million base HP and 1 trillion armor.

Overall melee 2.999999 is a major buff alot of weapons are strong and viable to this day. New builds(heavy attack builds and the buff to crit) make alot of weapons much stronger. While multiplictive values always yield a higher return the damage in 2.0 was indeed overkill and I'm using the same strong weapons that I was using in melee 2.0 and getting the job done and sometimes going even further in the new melee update. On top of that I have way more viability in my weapon choice and synergies now. 

Why nerf 60% of the melee weapons now to revert back to the old melee where only a few weapons types and weapons were really viable 

[Test-995]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Overall melee 2.999999 is a major buff alot of weapons are strong and viable to this day. New builds(heavy attack builds and the buff to crit) make alot of weapons much stronger. While multiplictive values always yield a higher return the damage in 2.0 was indeed overkill and I'm using the same strong weapons that I was using in melee 2.0 and getting the job done and sometimes going even further in the new melee update. On top of that I have way more viability in my weapon choice and synergies now. 

Why nerf 60% of the melee weapons now to revert back to the old melee where only a few weapons types and weapons were really viable 

Again why are you talking about melee overhaul?

I'm talking about melee scaling only, nothing about melee stats.

[Mr.Fluffins]

I 100% disagree with this, and mainly because it is extremely selfish towards 99% of people who play this game. Just because some nerds (a small minority of players) like myself have a bunch of formaed guns, weapons, rare mods, primed mods and riven mods and can steam roll everything and deal with the kosma enemies relatively easy, doesn't mean others are in the same position.

In fact, I think kosma enemies should be nerfed, their ehp is WAY too high for regular players to deal with, especially compared to everything else in the game. Their damage also makes squishier frames even less desirable to play (I mean it's kind of stupid to land on a crewship or enemy base with all abilities off after archwing only to get one-shot by a random grineer dude before being able to press a button).

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

4 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

Again why are you talking about melee overhaul?

I'm talking about melee scaling only, nothing about melee stats.

I apologize for the misread. But still we do more then enough damage to the enemies now. Why revert it? 

[Test-995]

1 minute ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

I apologize for the misread. But still we do more then enough damage to the enemies now. Why revert it? 

Because if DE decide to go "buff everything including enemies instead of nerfing us", literally every nerfs should be reverted to keep the consistency.

Including enemies, i don't know much of nerfed enemies but such as corpus nullifier bubbles or scrambus, crewships and so on.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

Just now, Test-995 said:

Because if DE decide to go "buff everything including enemies instead of nerfing us", literally every nerfs should be reverted to keep the consistency.

Including enemies, i don't know much of nerfed enemies but such as corpus nullifier bubbles or scrambus, crewships and so on.

Melee 2.0 compared to 2.9999999 is worse imo. 

We lost multiplictive and endless scaling.

Open to finisher combos 

And a few other things 

But we got 

Heavy attack. Builds. 

And overall damage buff to all weapons 

 

Range balancing 

A crit buff (seriously it's insane with alot of builds now) 

And nice qol changes for melee.

While I don't really like all of the simplified combos it does flow nice for alot of weapons. 

We got buffed but it took away alot of cheese as well. Blood rush and CO did receive a nerf in a way. But both are still insanely strong mods and do allow for great scalability to this day. weeping wounds imo I would say is better and so are alot of weapons with the new scaling. I'm a bit salty the zenistar is trash now but nonetheless it was a meta shift and imo a decent one 

[TARINunit9]

19 hours ago, 844448 said:

Heard kosma grineer units are tough enough to take some hits instead of one shot like our usual play, I think we can transfer some of the kosma grineer stats into the enemies.

I think the reason why warframe is too easy is because the enemies are weak enough to be killed with one bullet and with kosma grineer being tougher than usual, I guess we can transfer at least the base health to old enemies (grineer, corpus and probably infested) to make them not too easy from the start considering you can reach 100 damage per bullet pretty easily even at beginning level.

What do you guys think?

I disagree that the Kosma/Gyre/Exo base stats should be applied to starting enemies

For one thing, they're bugged. Not only do Railjack infantry have over ten times more base health than pre-Railjack infantry (which may or may not be intentional), they have Crewman Flesh instead of the Cloned Flesh, which OBVIOUSLY isn't intentional

Secondly, think about early game enemies. Level 1 Lancers have 100 health, and MK1 weapons do appropriately low damage (MK1 Kunai for example does 40 damage). Imagine new players suddenly find themselves dealing with "Level 1" Lancers than have 2,500 health

[TARINunit9]

15 hours ago, DrBorris said:

To show how absurd the Kosma enemies are, first let's look at the difference in EHP (effective hit points) of all the current factions outside Kosma.

This is nothing new, we all are accustomed to how absurd enemy armor scaling is and how it affects damage. But now let's look at normal Grineer versus Kosma.

I am 99% sure the Railjack infantry are all bugged anyway.

Standard Elite Lancers have a base health of 150 Cloned Flesh. At level 50 (a standard Railjack mission) that jumps up to 2,900 health (before armor, not doing EHP yet)

Railjack Elite Lancers have a base health of 2,500 Crewman Flesh. Doesn't that look like a typo to you? That it was supposed to be 250 Cloned Flesh? I mean how absurd is it that Railjack Infantry have more health at level 1 than everything else has at level 47 and also don't even have the right hitpoints?

[Test-995]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Melee 2.0 compared to 2.9999999 is worse imo. 

We lost multiplictive and endless scaling.

Open to finisher combos 

And a few other things 

But we got 

Heavy attack. Builds. 

And overall damage buff to all weapons 

 

Range balancing 

A crit buff (seriously it's insane with alot of builds now) 

And nice qol changes for melee.

While I don't really like all of the simplified combos it does flow nice for alot of weapons. 

We got buffed but it took away alot of cheese as well. Blood rush and CO did receive a nerf in a way. But both are still insanely strong mods and do allow for great scalability to this day. weeping wounds imo I would say is better and so are alot of weapons with the new scaling. I'm a bit salty the zenistar is trash now but nonetheless it was a meta shift and imo a decent one 

I'm not talking about rating of melee 3.0, but rather "every nerfs should be reverted".

So with that in mind, we'll keep all the damage buff, range buff and stance buff, but also we'll get revert for all the combo damage scaling, blood rush/condition overload cumulative math, and maybe multiplicative range mod for some weapons.

Melee 3.0 was a mix of buffs and nerfs, mostly a buff for base stats and stances but nerfs for scaling and mods, so we'll gain scaling back and it's all buffs now.

Also we would get both channeling and heavy attacks at same time, since having both is clearly a buff for everything.

[kapn655321]

6 hours ago, Learicorn said:

Hell no. This is a horde based shooter, there are literally infinite amounts of enemies and only 4 players max. One shotting is not a big deal at all, in fact we need that to be able to survive.

Bringing down the enemy damage and accuracy scaling would be good.
If that were done, a higher bottom end health, and lower top end potential, brings us to a comfy middle.
Enemies don't need to be made of styrofoam, or of solid steel. Neither feels right.. Neither does being one-shot.
I would agree that if they don't fix the one-shotting that forces people into DPS/Tank cheese,
then they absolutely should not bring up the enemy damage reduction, further re-enforcing it.

Bring down enemy damage and aim scaling.
Bring up base health of enemies with lower armor scaling.
Balance the Primary/secondary.
Viola.

Past that, it's just tweak, polish, and build on a far more sensible infrastructure.

[kapn655321]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

We lost multiplictive and endless scaling.

The exponential cheese isn't needed with a more sensible enemy ceiling.

Rather than just worrying about how high the numbers go,
like you mentioned.. things like finishers can make that difference.
More mechanical nuance and skill based win states... as they're touching on with Lich.. in theory.

If a fight gets progressively more complex to solve, but not Harder per-say,
I think that would be the way to go ultimately.

Your thoughts?

Edited December 24, 2019 by kapn655321

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

2 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

I'm not talking about rating of melee 3.0, but rather "every nerfs should be reverted".

So with that in mind, we'll keep all the damage buff, range buff and stance buff, but also we'll get revert for all the combo damage scaling, blood rush/condition overload cumulative math, and maybe multiplicative range mod for some weapons.

Melee 3.0 was a mix of buffs and nerfs, mostly a buff for base stats and stances but nerfs for scaling and mods, so we'll gain scaling back and it's all buffs now.

Also we would get both channeling and heavy attacks at same time, since having both is clearly a buff for everything.

I get what you  saying but we don't need the revert as mentioned above. And the mentality that just because they are buffing everything means we should.be buffed too is flawed brother

[Test-995]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

I get what you  saying but we don't need the revert as mentioned above. And the mentality that just because they are buffing everything means we should.be buffed too is flawed brother

We don't need buffs for enemies neither, also don't get things too seriously bro.

reverting nerfs aren't buffs, it's just fixing wrong things they did.

 

Edited December 24, 2019 by Test-995

[kapn655321]

18 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

reverting

Some players are power mad, and they like it that way. That's all good.
The goal is to exploit the systems fully, leverage every advantage, and conquer completely.

Not every player wants that.
Some just want the enemy to feel sensible to fight, regardless of exploits.

If weapons exploiting exponential properties is the only avenue to kill,
it's a shallow experience for the power mad, and completely uninviting to the rest.
This is what needed to be addressed with the melee changes.
It was perfectly fine that some players did millions of damage with the right mods;
the trouble was, everyone else was doing hundreds of damage against invincible husks of bad AI.

If player sentiment agreed that it was fine to be overpowered, they could have kept them.
...but they felt it was too easy, as the exploits were so mundane and common place,
that not only were they the only option, but they trivialized combat.
Executing that relentlessly was only sustainable for so many players.
..and while we may lament the capability we had, players who were not interested in that method
were lamenting that literal hundreds of weapons were pea shooters, and meta was ride or die.

I don't have a problem with players doing 1million damage to something that only takes 5000,
but I'm not the only player. ..however I damn sure did have a problem that nothing I liked worked.
Top came down, bottom came up, more (not all) players have better options as a result.

If they go scaling armor up even worse, then there's just going to again be all-cheese, only cheese.
..and once again, the only option is to be power mad, not just powerful.

We had a little bit of mechanical nuance with condition overload and status interplay, but it was skin
deep, and fundamentally hijacked the game's difficulty to a level that frustrated people.
The only answer to supply those people with content, is even more broken scaling, as OP proposes.
Unless they're ok with doing that damage to weak things (which they're not,) because otherwise..
throwing out one busted option for a handful of weapons, was not worth throwing out Thousands of
players, and hundreds of weapons.

tl:dr: Previous melee was a good thing to some people,
         but not enough of a good thing to enough people.

Edited December 24, 2019 by kapn655321