Equinox changes?

[SixDimensions]

In short I feel Equinox needs a few tweaks to make her kit most synergistic, namely with herself (selves?) But most important is that her passive needs to be changed. Getting 2 hp/energy per orb is basically useless.  Either making it a full Equilibrium effect or change her passive to double the hp/energy gained.  At least make the passive useful

[ScytodiDaedalus]

Welcome to the world of Passives, a story of gimmicks.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

You think thats bad?? Have you heard of nova’s passive? Do you even know what revenants passive is?? 

[ScytodiDaedalus]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Do you even know what revenants passive is?? 

"Additionally, when his Shield depletes, Revenant emits a radial blast that knocks down nearby enemies."

Wiki entry, now let me fix that: "Additionally, never, Revenant emits a radial blast that knocks down nearby enemies."

In all seriousness, I now understand why I got to live a handful of times after having Mesmer Skin drop.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

6 minutes ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

"Additionally, when his Shield depletes, Revenant emits a radial blast that knocks down nearby enemies."

Wiki entry, now let me fix that: "Additionally, never, Revenant emits a radial blast that knocks down nearby enemies."

In all seriousness, I now understand why I got to live a handful of times after having Mesmer Skin drop.

You forgot the outstanding 100 damage dealt by the knockdown 😉 

[ScytodiDaedalus]

Just now, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

You forgot the outstanding 100 damage dealt by the knockdown 😉 

Sounds like it's meant to CC; not really deal damage, I wouldn't mind if the damage was gone.

[Isokaze_BestKaze]

Let me tell you a story. About a warframe called Titania. Who spend 100% of her time flying.

Her passive is about bullet jumping.

[ScytodiDaedalus]

1 hour ago, Isokaze_BestKaze said:

Let me tell you a story. About a warframe called Titania. Who spend 100% of her time flying.

Her passive is about bullet jumping.

That is one of the few passives I consider useful, after all Titania's release and onwards had Warframes with passives that made a atleast bit of sense.

Titania being able to bullet jump very far compared to the standard allows her to reposition in really far places, good to get out and cast Razorwing, or to escape as soon as it's nullified or she runs out of energy.

[SixDimensions]

Don't get me wrong, more passives need updating.  But Equinox also needs some other changes to. However I feel her passive is probably the weakest part of her kit

[ScytodiDaedalus]

3 hours ago, SixDimensions said:

Don't get me wrong, more passives need updating.  But Equinox also needs some other changes to. However I feel her passive is probably the weakest part of her kit

Throughout the day I've been thinking something along the lines of... 20% of Energy gained is converted into health and 10% of Health gained/healed/restored is converted into Energy, that way her Night Form can allow Mend to pay itself off in a rather continuous way and simply grabbing Energy Orbs heals or Zenurik or whichever other way heals her slightly.

I might be biased here, unsure really of how  that passive I proposed would work.

In my opinion Equinox, disregarding the passive, is almost 100% perfect, my only issue with her is Pacify always draining full energy per enemy regardless of how far enemies are from the aura, also the fact that enemies put to Sleep continue to drain that Energy, enemies should simply drain the respective cost per distance and Sleep'd enemies should NOT be affected by Pacify unless woken up.

[A-keras]

On 2019-12-24 at 11:26 AM, SixDimensions said:

In short I feel Equinox needs a few tweaks to make her kit most synergistic, namely with herself (selves?) But most important is that her passive needs to be changed. Getting 2 hp/energy per orb is basically useless.  Either making it a full Equilibrium effect or change her passive to double the hp/energy gained.  At least make the passive useful

Agreed. Equinox has the potential to have far more interesting, engaging and rewarding style of gameplay, than she currently has. But however, instead of a "few tweaks", I suggest more of a full-on rework. From the threads I've read in the past, I've mostly seen people suggesting simple tweaks to make Metamorphosis not interrupt her abilities with every use, which is fine, but even if her Metamorphosis were to not interrupt her abilities, her abilities will still interrupt each other. For example, Day Form's "Maim", through it's initial damage over time effect, will risk waking up enemies under the effects of Night Form's "Rest". So instead, I like to suggest a couple things to not only make Metamorphosis' interruptions no longer a issue, but also add benefits to using metamorphosis, in addition with her abilities. Now having said that, here are some suggestions.

1) Treat the Day and Night Aspects of Equinox, not as separate, independent Warframes, but as a cooperative, interdependent team of Warframes. This is something I believe is fitting for her identity as a "Duality" Waframe, and one especially based on Yin and Yang. While they fit the part of being opposites, they are missing the other half of the yin and yang concept. The half being that they are also dependent on each other to work and function as part of a system, in the natural world. For example, without the darkness of the night's sky (Yin), the stars in the sky (Yang) cannot be seen. Without the light of the day (Yang), there is no shade under the trees (Yin). Equinox, although she has different forms, they still have and share the same health, energy, and mods. Having each of her two halves assisting one another would be fitting, both thematically in gameplay and concept. As for how to further reflect this in gameplay, onto my next suggestion.

2) Redesign Equinox's abilities to have synergy with their opposite halves. This would solve the issues of Metamorphosis cancelling out her abilities, make the forms cooperate with each other, and also give more reason to use Metamorphosis in the middle of a mission. The idea is to switch between her forms, using each of their abilities in tandem, to string together her abilities to invoke synergies. An example would be like, if Day Form's Rage worked as a taunt, increasing the attacking and movement speed of enemies, but focused their attention on Equinox. Then immediately switch to Night Form and use an ability to absorb incoming enemy damage and turn it into additive power strength for the next ability cast, for either form. And finally, make use of that additive ability strength in Day Form, to either buff herself and allies, or use a offensive ability to clear a path, with that additive ability strength bonus. 

There can be various combinations performed between Equinox's forms and their abilities. This would encourage more creativity with her kit, possibly making use of all of it across both forms, and keeps the player engaged and focused thanks to her abilities being combo-based. This would make Equinox into a very technical Warframe, which rewards the Player for their skill at handling her. An excellent example of this type of playstyle, is Aegislash from Pokken Tournament. It also has dual forms it can switch between, and uses them to setup and dish out combos, by using it's Sword and Shield forms in tandem. It's better to watch a video of them in action on Youtube, my words can't do it justice.

3) Make Metamophosis her Passive Ability. Not only does it work with what I suggested earlier, but it also allows for a new ability to take it's spot, allowing for more combinations of abilities. It doesn't seem right to waste Equinox's energy simply to swap her forms. So instead of it being on a button, have it be activated passively after every cast of an ability to make it easier to combo her abilities between her forms. There could also be a system added where, based on how many combos the Player performed using the abilities of both forms in tandem, would fill up a meter to grant them access to their Combined Form for a limited time.

Edited December 30, 2019 by A-keras

[Teridax68]

I agree with A-keras that Equinox likely needs more than just a few tweaks to be fully functional, as the way her current kit is implemented heavily discourages form-switching, with her two forms having essentially no cross-synergy, and Metamorphosis wasting bits of her kit each time by deactivating her auras and abandoning the built-up resource on her 4, which itself requires a band-aid augment just to avoid the issue. On top of that, I also agree that her passive currently does very little to her, and I'm pretty certain was just added out of vague thematic relevance to duality, rather than any meaningful contribution to her kit. Even if it were buffed, I'm not certain how good it would truly be for Equinox, because ultimately she doesn't generate additional health or Energy orbs, nor does she make exceptional use of either resource. In this respect, I also support A-keras's suggestion to rework Equinox more comprehensively, and shift Metamorphosis to her passive, as her current 1 is also just a transform button with stats attached, rather than a genuinely interesting active in its own right.

[Isokaze_BestKaze]

I think Equinox is mostly fine. If there's one ability I'd rework on her, it would be her 2.

With a typical maim build, you want range, low-mid duration and efficiency. And her 4th augment if you want to play a bit more defensive and teamplay between your nuke.

But that makes her day 2 utterly useless and her night 2 too short to be anything but a "oh crap" button. And even then I'd be more willing to use her night 4 to heal or night 3 to tank than her 2. On the opposite, a build focused on spamming her 2 tends to make the other abilities useless.

Her passive is bad but nothing too critically bad either way, and she's functional as a frame overall. I disagree with the big changes proposed here for this reason.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Isokaze_BestKaze

[(XBOX)INe Saninus]

The problem with Equinox is that you have to build her for the role you want to play and then she comes up short in that role.

-Want a Slow Equinox? Nova is better.

-Want a duality build? Wukong does it better and easier.

-Want a nuke build? Saryn or Volt does it better and easier.

 

What should make her stand out is her ability to change roles mid mission.

A jack of all trades.

The ability to fill the gap wherever your team is struggling.

Unfortunately, her builds demand specialization to function and are subpar while doing so.

She wouldn't need to be the best at something if she could do multiple things depending on the situation.

[Isokaze_BestKaze]

I disagree with that.

Build her with her 4th augment. Range, Strenght, Efficiency. Throw in Adaptation while you're at it. Support your team with her night 3 & 4, and only switch to day to nuke. That makes her both a healer/support (you replenish shield, gives overshield, and reduce incoming damage at the same time), and still a very good nuke. And unlike Harrow, you benefits from teammates kills as well. She's also less annoying to have in your team than a Volt/Saryn that just hog all the damage. 

For example Equinox is my favourite frame for long survival in kuva fortress/requiem relics. After some time, the Grineer starts hurting quite a lot and the support ability of Equinox becomes really appreciable.

[A-keras]

19 hours ago, (XB1)INe Saninus said:

The problem with Equinox is that you have to build her for the role you want to play and then she comes up short in that role.

-Want a Slow Equinox? Nova is better.

-Want a duality build? Wukong does it better and easier.

-Want a nuke build? Saryn or Volt does it better and easier.

 

What should make her stand out is her ability to change roles mid mission.

A jack of all trades.

The ability to fill the gap wherever your team is struggling.

Unfortunately, her builds demand specialization to function and are subpar while doing so.

She wouldn't need to be the best at something if she could do multiple things depending on the situation.

This is exactly why she needs a rework. While players can attempt to build her into a "Jack of All Trades", Equinox is simply not designed to change her form based on what their squad needs. Even with the 4th Ability augment, that simply keeps it active when using Metamophosis, you still can't keep your 3rd ability active, and only becomes even more painful when you have the augment for it, causing Equinox to lose whatever effects she built up when it was active.

It would be best for Equinox's kit to be redesigned from the ground up, actually work as a "Jack of All Trades", from her two forms assisting one another throughout a mission, helping her squad. 

Edited December 30, 2019 by A-keras

[SixDimensions]

I don't think big changes are necessary. And I'm very much against changing her 1st ability to a passive. I don't want to be switching forms every time I dodge or use an ability.  I'll try to keep this short and concise:

PASSIVE: Currently pointless.  +2 energy/health per orb is negligible at best.  I would either buff it to full value or double health gained from orbs in night form and energy gained from orbs in day form.

METAMORPHOSIS: Speed up the transition between forms.  Make the buffs permanent. Apply the opposing decaying buff when switching form (e.g. Day > Night form: Night has permanent armor/shield bonus with decaying damage/speed bonus and vice versa).  Other than that I think the ability is fine.  When built for duration/strength these buffs can be pretty valuable, especially for Night

REST/RAGE: Honestly I don't have much for this one.  Aside from boosting damage done to enemies (especially for her 4th) Rage is kind of meh. Rest is nice but 50% health threshold to wake up seems low. Granted it's easily to kill enemies well before that but my companion sometimes targets different enemies and then wakes them up while I'm mopping up the rest

PACIFY/PROVOKE: Really I would only change Provoke.  Make it all one zone, not three, with the maximum amount.  Make the energy drain only when being hit by enemies, not just because they're in the area.  Or keep the current drain but apply a stacking damage reduction buff based on how many enemies are in the single area.  Reducing damage dealt by enemies is not nearly effective as applying damage reduction. Draining for enemies not even hitting you is just rude.  And then further handicapping it by making so you have to be close to them to get the highest DR just poor design

MEND/MAIM: Make the augment a part of the ability, as it should be.  Players shouldn't be punished by losing all their build up charge just for changing forms.  Mend shouldn't be a single burst heal either.  Either you keep charging/firing in short bursts to keep health/shields up which is a waste of energy and a lot of maintenance, or you build up a huge charge that is mostly wasted.  Plus you have to have allies in your affinity range for them to be hit.  Instead, make Maim a heal over time that drains the accumulated charge in bursts.  This can be effected by Strength for how much charge is used (calculated by percent or base amount), Duration for how often Mend pulses (low duration = more pulses, then using more charge over time).  With this version of the ability the shields on kill wouldn't be necessary as sufficient pulses of healing would give allies shields anyway.  A heal over time would be more diverse and fit many builds better than the current function

ADDENDUM: keep 3 and 4 active when switching forms but raise the cost of Metamorphosis.  This would just mean we don't have to spend the extra precious few seconds activating that ability again but we wouldn't be getting the ability for free either

 

These changes would preserve Equinox's current kit but open the utility of the abilities.  More importantly, being able to switch forms without having to active 3 abilities after each time would actually be in line with Equinox's intended design, according to her description.  Equinox is supposed to be able to fluidly change between forms and apply damage or support.  There is a huge lack of fluidity in the current design.  Currently she is clunky and high maintenance.  Worse, you can only build for one form or the other to really get any viable benefits and averaging between the two significantly dampens both.  When one form is performing at 98% and the other only 2% or building for both means at best a 50-50 split but at a loss of 48% of value to either/both it doesn't really provide much incentive to switch

Keep what she has already. Just make some changes to allow the frame to actually deal both damage and support and to do so fluidly

[Andele3025]

On 2019-12-25 at 12:01 AM, Isokaze_BestKaze said:

Let me tell you a story. About a warframe called Titania. Who spend 100% of her time flying.

Her passive is about bullet jumping.

Her passive works/used to work on the AW dodge since bullet jump distance is actually manouver distance and influences dodge distance. Its actually among the better ones in terms of how much worth of stats the frame is getting. Issue is somewhere between Eidolon and OV updates i think it stopped working.

On topic, Equi getting her 4 augments no rankup effect on 3 and 4 should be part of the passive (50% of the 3 and 4 stored value is kept when you swap forms, maybe 1 buffs too) ontop of bumping the equilibrium effect from 10% to at least 20% (since 5 hp/energy a orb is ok as a 2 part passive effect). Especially if her 4 augment is then changed to "each x amount of damage stored causes a energy(night)/health(day) orb to drop on/from effected targets when the ability is deactivated".

Edited December 30, 2019 by Andele3025

[A-keras]

On 2019-12-30 at 4:01 PM, SixDimensions said:

I don't think big changes are necessary. And I'm very much against changing her 1st ability to a passive. I don't want to be switching forms every time I dodge or use an ability.  I'll try to keep this short and concise:

PASSIVE: Currently pointless.  +2 energy/health per orb is negligible at best.  I would either buff it to full value or double health gained from orbs in night form and energy gained from orbs in day form.

METAMORPHOSIS: Speed up the transition between forms.  Make the buffs permanent. Apply the opposing decaying buff when switching form (e.g. Day > Night form: Night has permanent armor/shield bonus with decaying damage/speed bonus and vice versa).  Other than that I think the ability is fine.  When built for duration/strength these buffs can be pretty valuable, especially for Night

REST/RAGE: Honestly I don't have much for this one.  Aside from boosting damage done to enemies (especially for her 4th) Rage is kind of meh. Rest is nice but 50% health threshold to wake up seems low. Granted it's easily to kill enemies well before that but my companion sometimes targets different enemies and then wakes them up while I'm mopping up the rest

PACIFY/PROVOKE: Really I would only change Provoke.  Make it all one zone, not three, with the maximum amount.  Make the energy drain only when being hit by enemies, not just because they're in the area.  Or keep the current drain but apply a stacking damage reduction buff based on how many enemies are in the single area.  Reducing damage dealt by enemies is not nearly effective as applying damage reduction. Draining for enemies not even hitting you is just rude.  And then further handicapping it by making so you have to be close to them to get the highest DR just poor design

MEND/MAIM: Make the augment a part of the ability, as it should be.  Players shouldn't be punished by losing all their build up charge just for changing forms.  Mend shouldn't be a single burst heal either.  Either you keep charging/firing in short bursts to keep health/shields up which is a waste of energy and a lot of maintenance, or you build up a huge charge that is mostly wasted.  Plus you have to have allies in your affinity range for them to be hit.  Instead, make Maim a heal over time that drains the accumulated charge in bursts.  This can be effected by Strength for how much charge is used (calculated by percent or base amount), Duration for how often Mend pulses (low duration = more pulses, then using more charge over time).  With this version of the ability the shields on kill wouldn't be necessary as sufficient pulses of healing would give allies shields anyway.  A heal over time would be more diverse and fit many builds better than the current function

ADDENDUM: keep 3 and 4 active when switching forms but raise the cost of Metamorphosis.  This would just mean we don't have to spend the extra precious few seconds activating that ability again but we wouldn't be getting the ability for free either

 

These changes would preserve Equinox's current kit but open the utility of the abilities.  More importantly, being able to switch forms without having to active 3 abilities after each time would actually be in line with Equinox's intended design, according to her description.  Equinox is supposed to be able to fluidly change between forms and apply damage or support.  There is a huge lack of fluidity in the current design.  Currently she is clunky and high maintenance.  Worse, you can only build for one form or the other to really get any viable benefits and averaging between the two significantly dampens both.  When one form is performing at 98% and the other only 2% or building for both means at best a 50-50 split but at a loss of 48% of value to either/both it doesn't really provide much incentive to switch

Keep what she has already. Just make some changes to allow the frame to actually deal both damage and support and to do so fluidly

While I do like your ideas to make Equinox's kit less clunky, It still doesn't quite go far enough to fix her problems, in my opinion. Sure ,these changes would make swapping her forms easier, but where is the incentive to do so? Especially, as you pointed out in your last paragraph, you can only build and mod specifically for one of her forms, meaning one form will still be used over the other. Which would make these changes to make her form swapping fluid, pointless, if one form will always be "better" than the other. Because after all, why swap to a form that is "lesser" than the other? Also, her abilities still are in conflict with each other. For example, using Rage will cause more energy to be spent from using Pacify, because of your change for it to only spend energy when hit by enemies. 

That's why I suggested, instead of Equinox's forms be treated as a pair separate, individual units, have them be treated as a pair of cooperative, interdependent units; Where they work together as a team, by having each of their kits redesigned to work with the other, in tandem. This would not only create incentive for the player to swap and use both forms and their all of their abilities throughout a mission, but would make her gameplay far more engaging, by making the player think and consider how to combo the abilities of both of her forms, what combo is fitting for certain situations, and possibly the timing when using each ability after another, for maximum effectiveness. 

Currently, Equinox's gameplay isn't very engaging and doesn't involve much skill or thought from the player, as it simply involves using toggle-based auras, that make up 2/3 of the kits of both forms, when not counting Metamorphosis. Because of that, her current kit doesn't encourage clever or creative uses, and with no way to take advantage of her unique form change mechanic, and your changes don't address that, they just make the toggle-based auras more persistent.    

Edited January 2, 2020 by A-keras

[SixDimensions]

1 hour ago, A-keras said:

(snip)

I disagree.  I also don't feel a complete redesign from the ground up is necessary.  The incentive to switch forms is situational.  Do you need more damage or more support?  That's plenty of incentive. The problem is that switching forms isn't great because the abilities don't play well between their builds, rather than their function.  To your point regarding Rage and Pacify, you could use Rest.  Enemies aren't doing damage as they are asleep but take increased damage.  Removing the "wake on 1/2 health" issue would make this strategy more useful.  My suggestions would address that but bringing the builds of both forms more in line.  Then it's just a matter of situational dependence.  I feel that your suggestions would involve far too much micro management.  That said, it would appear we have fundamental differences in our views on the matter in which we're unlikely to see eye to eye

[A-keras]

4 hours ago, SixDimensions said:

I disagree.  I also don't feel a complete redesign from the ground up is necessary.  The incentive to switch forms is situational.  Do you need more damage or more support?  That's plenty of incentive. The problem is that switching forms isn't great because the abilities don't play well between their builds, rather than their function.  To your point regarding Rage and Pacify, you could use Rest.  Enemies aren't doing damage as they are asleep but take increased damage.  Removing the "wake on 1/2 health" issue would make this strategy more useful.  My suggestions would address that but bringing the builds of both forms more in line.  Then it's just a matter of situational dependence.  I feel that your suggestions would involve far too much micro management.  That said, it would appear we have fundamental differences in our views on the matter in which we're unlikely to see eye to eye

I do agree that at present, her abilities both don't play well between the builds and function. Even the abilities within a single form do not play well with each other, like how the current Pacify encourages the player to stay close to their enemies, rather than their squad mates, putting it at odds with Mend, which encourages the opposite. I agree with you there. I just rather Equinox to have a more involved and active gameplay style, that makes her form switching into a necessary cornerstone of her kit where her abilities revolve around it, instead of something that is situational at best. With the changes you suggested, it simply leaves the toggle-based auras on persistently between forms, which leaves her 1 and 2 as her only abilities that can be used actively in either form. Her 4 can be of active, but to a limited extent, since it relies on passively dealing a DOT effect and Equinox and her allies killing enemies inside it's radius to build up enough of a resource to be used for the active part of the ability, which is simply turning it off.

Her gameplay is still too passive, and your changes don't do much about it. Even DE have stated in the past that they wanted to push for more active gameplay first, while making passive gameplay more secondary. Please understand, I have no intention to attack you or your suggestions. I just disagree with making simple changes for Equinox, where all it does is just make it easier to transition between her forms in the middle of gameplay, rather than it being an active component where alternating through her forms is something that is necessary and beneficial for her gameplay. While I agree, my suggestions would involve some micro management, they however would keep the player focused and engaged while playing as her. They would provide the player a challenge that rewards them for their understanding of her abilities and their own skill at using her. A true "Endgame Warframe", that is very technical, and seemingly difficult to play at first, but once the player has a good grasp on her mechanics and abilities, she could be extremely fun to play.
 

Like I mentioned in my first post, Aegislash, the version from Pokken Tournament, is a great example for this potential gameplay for Equinox. Like Equinox, it has a form changing mechanic. It switches between an aggressive, close-combat, Sword Form, and an defensive, ranged-combat, Shield Form. Not only can it form change with a move, but certain moves, including within a combo, can force it to form change. And changing from Shield Form to Sword Form, will provide increasingly stronger and longer lasting buffs, the more Aegislash uses the form change mechanic. Because of it's quirks, Aegislash is a very technical character.

The key to playing as Aegislash, is to understand what moves and combos results in a form change, and use both of it's forms and their moves, in tandem, to setup and put yourself in a good position to deal a devastating combination of attacks. For example, use Shield Form to stun your attacking opponent with a counter move, change to Sword Form and gain an attack buff, then unleash a combo that by the end of it, your opponent is sent flying and you're left in Shield Form, and finally, use Shield Form's ranged beam attack to hit your opponent, while they are still defenseless and airborne, before they hit the ground.

Equinox is a good frame, but she could be a more engaging one, by allowing the players to make use of her form changes to their advantage, and redesign her abilities to revolve around it, by default.        

Edited January 2, 2020 by A-keras

[SixDimensions]

1 hour ago, A-keras said:

(Snip)

I understand your point of view. I just disagree. As I said, we have fundamental differences in our views. Such micro management in a fast paced game would be a hindrance and more likely to overload a player. Especially if you need to combo abilities to get the most of them. Even frames with synergies are not reliant on combos to make them useful. Making the driving force behind the design that very same viewpoint would serve only to overcomplicate Equinox

You want more changes to her kit. I believe that would be detrimental. We each see what the other is pointing out but just have completely different views 

[Xepthrichros]

I feel that her kit needs NO changes because having different mod set ups, and different forms, for different mission modes and situations is a design feature of Equinox, not a design problem. If one doesn't agree with these features, I am sure one can find another warframe whose features are more fitting to your taste in this roster of 40+.